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preserving muscle on a cut advice needed

alfresco

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The main question is "asking for advice on maintaining muscle mass while cutting for
a big guy"

Question . . . why do so many say it can't be done or find this so difficult to understand
and make it so difficult?

It has been demonstrated time and time again that it is possible to both lose fat and
gain muscle and strength. Many bodybuilders to that (or did do that). I think it is still
talked about, usually with respect to Kevin Levrone who seems to be the poster child
for this process.

If you are serious, I were you I would give him a phone call or fire off an email to him
and go from there. Ya gotta start at top before working your way down. And while you
may not have the genetics for a transformation of his level, you can still do what you
want to do.

Advise is worth what you pay for it.
 

emeric delczeg

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Many thoughts pop into my head after reading your post. Are you just cutting solely to look better? Do you want to move down a weight class in powerlifting? Why are you cutting 4 months before a meet? Fact is dropping any weight could and most likely will go against your strength but if you can fit into the top of a class then it will be worthwhile. Regardless, you are simply cutting things too drastically. You just want to clean up your diet at first and move down approx 300 cals and not overdo training and/or cardio. Now everyone is different but generally I would keep protein high and you need healthy fats. Now I don't know how your existing diet is but if you are having high carbs I would take the first 300 cals from them and well over time even more. When dieting I usually advise the majority of someone's carbs to be around their training but there are exceptions.

It should be a slow and gradual process and when combined with some test and an androgen such as tren (maybe an oral as well) the chances of you getting weaker are minimized. I would also add in drugs gradually as well. Meaning you don't need loads of things when you just drop 300 cals and you use test and something else (let's say deca for example). So test and deca and standard doses for you then over time as you get closer to the meet you add in tren (let's say 7 weeks out) and then even closer could come some adrol and/or halo. None of this is exact as I would need more details but just a rough idea of the approach I would recommend. Do you have any goals in regards to weight and body fat? If you provide more details we can give you much better advice.
I would not lower the calories, he need to train intense and cardio. I am almost 68 and eat more calories , but I train 2 times per day.
 

NGL34

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if i chose to keep muscle size what would be the difference than keeping strength ? don't they go hand in hand ?

i calculated my TDEE and found my maintenance to be around 3200 to 3500 according to different formulas but i was holding at around 3800 kcal more or less ,so i subtracted 500 kcal from the 3200 i got from the formula but i lost weight fast at around 4 lbs a week.

That's a good stating point. Keep in mind some of that 4lbs could of been water and glycogen weight. To preserve as much muscle as possible with the gear your on I wouldnt try to lose anymore then 2 lbs a week. Try increasing calories maybe 200-300 to get you to that point or stop doing the 20 minutes cardio for the time being. Keep doing this every week until you hit a plateau- Weight loss has stalled. At that point you will have to make a choice to drop more calories (another 300-500) or add in more cardio.

We all know that body weight (fat or muscle) increases leavage, which increase strength. You need to be prepared to loss a little strength as you downsize. But if your on a moderate dose of any gear and your losing 1-2lbs a week your highly unlikely to burn any muscle.
 

kto

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I think the problem lies in the fact that you haven't stayed committed in this process long enough to know the idiosyncrasies of dieting, how it impacts you physiologically, and mentally. Without a doubt, if this is your first bout with dieting, you will lose some muscle. If hypothetically you are tracking lifts and is lifting intensely, tracking macros with a small deficit.. chances are, a consistent drop in calories will equate to losing glycogen because in most cases, carbs are the first macro we cut. Inherently, can you tell the difference between losing glycogen and flattening out, versus losing muscle? Dieting is a huge expedenture that takes ongoing assessment and making real time assessments to gauge your progress, losing to much weight too quickly or not losing quickly enough? That becomes the conundrum of bodybuilding, a 24 hr commitment with a handful of variables that needs ongoing adjustments including drugs (How they effect you and assuming your gear is legit), diet, training, rest, stress, and progressively overloading. Take the time to learn the intricacies of your body, because at the end of the day,nobody will know your body better than yourself.
 

qbkilla

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The main question is "asking for advice on maintaining muscle mass while cutting for
a big guy"

Question . . . why do so many say it can't be done or find this so difficult to understand
and make it so difficult?

It has been demonstrated time and time again that it is possible to both lose fat and
gain muscle and strength. Many bodybuilders to that (or did do that). I think it is still
talked about, usually with respect to Kevin Levrone who seems to be the poster child
for this process.

If you are serious, I were you I would give him a phone call or fire off an email to him
and go from there. Ya gotta start at top before working your way down. And while you
may not have the genetics for a transformation of his level, you can still do what you
want to do.

Advise is worth what you pay for it.

Im confused, your advising him to offer to pay one of the elite bodybuilders with elite genetics of all time so he can get some secret diet, training, or drug protocol that will cause him to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time? If he wanted to spend money I think he would be better off hiring someone who does contest prep and has a reputation for helping guys cut who have all sorts of genetics.
 

juggy38

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As stated, if you want to preserve almost all tissue while dieting, drugs have to go up.

You can build tissue on 500-700 test and lots of food.

You cut out food, it’s gonna take more drugs to hold the same tissue. Any drug that helps lower cortisol and has other anabolic properties OTHER than just activisting androgen receptors come to mind.

GH+tren/var come to mind. Or hire a brilliant coach with average genetics. John meadows, Shelby, Jordan Peters, Scott Stevenson would be my choices
 

emeric delczeg

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asking for advice on maintaining muscle mass while cutting for a big guy.

a little history:
i'm 5.7 around 230 lbs and 18% body fat mostly in the midsection, i've been working out for more than 12 years and last 7 years been on gear on and off (test,dbol,deca,drol,halo and eq).
i'm a local competitive powerlifter so i never bothered to cut my fat down during all those years and have no experience about cutting except the known calories in vs out with 2 grams of protein per bound.

my usual pre meet cycle for bulking and strength is around
500-750 test cyp
400-600 deca or eq
an oral like dbol 60 or drol up to 150
adex and hcg
then i usually cruise on 200 to 250 test cyp

i tried cutting for 3 weeks on 2800-3000 kcal and 260 gm of protein using 300 mg test prop and winny 50 mg but lost strength and size in the upper back and arms so i cut it short and stepped the calories and test up again as i can't afford to lose strength as i have a local meet in 4 months from now, same thing happened on test and tren and cut it short.

my question: what would u recommend to cut without losing any muscle (in regard to steroids, diet and workout) as i think the advice of just 300 mg of test and winny or masteron would work for a smaller guy or someone who is not past their natural limit yet but not for me ?
and is being flat a part of the equation that will always happen and i just have to go through ?

thanks and sorry if that was too long
You geting some very bad suggestions. Be smart with the drugs use.
 

Blazed_Noob

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Keep it simple , don't complicate it. I lose fat and gain muscle , I lift as hard as I can safely and lift heavy when I'm running cutting agents , I usually stay will my go-to npp/test p and add things depending on what I want to accomplish. Figure out how your body reacts to things and work it out from there. I stay high protein , low carb , high fats and have refeed days. I don't compete but I stay just as strong if not stronger when I try to lose fat.
When you start losing fat noticably you will look bigger even tho you are losing weight , I sometimes go up to 260lbs at 6'3 then cut to 230ish and people tell me I look like I gained more muscle.

Trial and error but advice from pros or people who have accomplished what you want is worth it's weight in gold if you can separate the good stuff from the bullshit. Lots of knowledge here just gotta look.
 

Elvia1023

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I would not lower the calories, he need to train intense and cardio. I am almost 68 and eat more calories , but I train 2 times per day.

Of course he needs to train intense and do cardio but the guy stated he is 18% and he wants to get closer to 10% so surely lowering calories over time is the obvious thing to do. Now the manner in how he lowers those calories is the most important factor here. Yes he can tighten up by adding in cardio and training hard but he needs to lower cals over time to drop a lot of fat. It should go without stating he needs to train hard and add cardio (not too much cardio due to his goals). My main advice was he should just clean up his diet and start with only approx 350 cals lower so he won't lose any real strength doing that. Then he can see how he is after some time and make adjustments if needed based on his goals. Most people can just clean up their diets and keep cals around the same and train hard and they will get rid of excess "fluff" and really tighten up but if he wants to get down to 10% he is going to have to lower calories. His issue is in the past and has lowered calories too fast and as a result he has lost strength.

Now regarding drugs no offence but your tiny test dose cycles are not going to be NOWHERE AS EFFECTIVE for when he competes in a powerlifting meet than if he was to use some test, deca and adrol. No one is telling him to abuse himself but he should go without stating for his goals and looking at his past usage he would be much better adding in those sort of drugs and at effective doses. He can use 200mg test but when he competes against guys on boatloads of test, deca, adrol, halo, cheque drops etc he is going to be at a massive disadvantage. They key is just picking compounds and doses that someone is ok with and not abusing their bodies and because health is always a concern if certain things are used they are used for limited durations. All the drug recommendations I gave he has used before so it's not putting him out of his comfort zone. His strength on a bit of test will not be anywhere close to what it would be by implementing the drugs I listed.

I don't get why you are stating you are 68 and eat more calories as it's apples and oranges. This guy is a powerlifter and strength is his main goal. If he trains twice daily it will probably go against him. If he eats the same calories and trains intense with cardio on say 200mg test he will 100% not be as strong. My suggestion is for him to lose weight and just to keep his strength as high as possible (hew will lose some if he drops weight) but if it puts him in a lower weight class then great. He will be leaner and look better and because he just lowered cals very slowly his strength shouldn't be greatly effected. Then obviously he adds in (gradually) some effective drugs for strength so he will get stronger until he tries to peak for his powerlifting meet.
 

Elvia1023

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It should also go without stating (sometimes you have to state the obvious on here) that he should diet on the most calories possible. He said it himself he went down to 2800-3000 cals for 3 weeks which is a ridiculous amount for a powerlifter of his size. So I definitely wasn't telling him to lower from that total as that would be stupid. I don't think he has even listed his current cals. Everyone is different but I would hope they would be around 5000 so he has much more room to play with. Many on here diet on such low calories and yes if you just want to look good on the beach it can still work when combined with aas (slows down muscle loss significantly) but if your goal is strength and/or holding as much size as possible you 100% have to move down very slowly. Everyone is different so my following number is a complete approximation but I would expect most guys who are 230 and lifting for strength to be close to 5000 cals and then they can move down slowly if they want to lose bodyfat/weight and move down a weight class. If someone is training hard and competing for strength they should be well over 3000 (closer to 4000) cals even at the end of a diet. It's not like he wants to compete in a bodybuilding show and be 4% body fat.
 

IronLion2

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The main question is "asking for advice on maintaining muscle mass while cutting for
a big guy"

Question . . . why do so many say it can't be done or find this so difficult to understand
and make it so difficult?

It has been demonstrated time and time again that it is possible to both lose fat and
gain muscle and strength. Many bodybuilders to that (or did do that). I think it is still
talked about, usually with respect to Kevin Levrone who seems to be the poster child
for this process.

If you are serious, I were you I would give him a phone call or fire off an email to him
and go from there. Ya gotta start at top before working your way down. And while you
may not have the genetics for a transformation of his level, you can still do what you
want to do.

Advise is worth what you pay for it.

power lifting has very little to do with muscle and kevin leverone is a bodybuilder........ Leverone benches what 600? His weight class the guys are benching 800-1000lbs.
 

IronLion2

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Best thing you can do if you want to be leaner and still hold your total is learn how to stay lean year round and just learn to really "bloat" yourself before your lifts. Like I said if you want to go down in classes you need to relarn the lifts at that bodyweight, while doing that you get to expirement with protocols that drive up your leverages in the short term while keeping minimal body fat.
 

emeric delczeg

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Of course he needs to train intense and do cardio but the guy stated he is 18% and he wants to get closer to 10% so surely lowering calories over time is the obvious thing to do. Now the manner in how he lowers those calories is the most important factor here. Yes he can tighten up by adding in cardio and training hard but he needs to lower cals over time to drop a lot of fat. It should go without stating he needs to train hard and add cardio (not too much cardio due to his goals). My main advice was he should just clean up his diet and start with only approx 350 cals lower so he won't lose any real strength doing that. Then he can see how he is after some time and make adjustments if needed based on his goals. Most people can just clean up their diets and keep cals around the same and train hard and they will get rid of excess "fluff" and really tighten up but if he wants to get down to 10% he is going to have to lower calories. His issue is in the past and has lowered calories too fast and as a result he has lost strength.

Now regarding drugs no offence but your tiny test dose cycles are not going to be NOWHERE AS EFFECTIVE for when he competes in a powerlifting meet than if he was to use some test, deca and adrol. No one is telling him to abuse himself but he should go without stating for his goals and looking at his past usage he would be much better adding in those sort of drugs and at effective doses. He can use 200mg test but when he competes against guys on boatloads of test, deca, adrol, halo, cheque drops etc he is going to be at a massive disadvantage. They key is just picking compounds and doses that someone is ok with and not abusing their bodies and because health is always a concern if certain things are used they are used for limited durations. All the drug recommendations I gave he has used before so it's not putting him out of his comfort zone. His strength on a bit of test will not be anywhere close to what it would be by implementing the drugs I listed.

I don't get why you are stating you are 68 and eat more calories as it's apples and oranges. This guy is a powerlifter and strength is his main goal. If he trains twice daily it will probably go against him. If he eats the same calories and trains intense with cardio on say 200mg test he will 100% not be as strong. My suggestion is for him to lose weight and just to keep his strength as high as possible (hew will lose some if he drops weight) but if it puts him in a lower weight class then great. He will be leaner and look better and because he just lowered cals very slowly his strength shouldn't be greatly effected. Then obviously he adds in (gradually) some effective drugs for strength so he will get stronger until he tries to peak for his powerlifting meet.
So he wants
Of course he needs to train intense and do cardio but the guy stated he is 18% and he wants to get closer to 10% so surely lowering calories over time is the obvious thing to do. Now the manner in how he lowers those calories is the most important factor here. Yes he can tighten up by adding in cardio and training hard but he needs to lower cals over time to drop a lot of fat. It should go without stating he needs to train hard and add cardio (not too much cardio due to his goals). My main advice was he should just clean up his diet and start with only approx 350 cals lower so he won't lose any real strength doing that. Then he can see how he is after some time and make adjustments if needed based on his goals. Most people can just clean up their diets and keep cals around the same and train hard and they will get rid of excess "fluff" and really tighten up but if he wants to get down to 10% he is going to have to lower calories. His issue is in the past and has lowered calories too fast and as a result he has lost strength.

Now regarding drugs no offence but your tiny test dose cycles are not going to be NOWHERE AS EFFECTIVE for when he competes in a powerlifting meet than if he was to use some test, deca and adrol. No one is telling him to abuse himself but he should go without stating for his goals and looking at his past usage he would be much better adding in those sort of drugs and at effective doses. He can use 200mg test but when he competes against guys on boatloads of test, deca, adrol, halo, cheque drops etc he is going to be at a massive disadvantage. They key is just picking compounds and doses that someone is ok with and not abusing their bodies and because health is always a concern if certain things are used they are used for limited durations. All the drug recommendations I gave he has used before so it's not putting him out of his comfort zone. His strength on a bit of test will not be anywhere close to what it would be by implementing the drugs I listed.

I don't get why you are stating you are 68 and eat more calories as it's apples and oranges. This guy is a powerlifter and strength is his main goal. If he trains twice daily it will probably go against him. If he eats the same calories and trains intense with cardio on say 200mg test he will 100% not be as strong. My suggestion is for him to lose weight and just to keep his strength as high as possible (hew will lose some if he drops weight) but if it puts him in a lower weight class then great. He will be leaner and look better and because he just lowered cals very slowly his strength shouldn't be greatly effected. Then obviously he adds in (gradually) some effective drugs for strength so he will get stronger until he tries to peak for his powerlifting meet.
I use to be Olympic weightlifter, training 2 time per week ? most power lifters trains 4-6 workouts per week.
 

emeric delczeg

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asking for advice on maintaining muscle mass while cutting for a big guy.

a little history:
i'm 5.7 around 230 lbs and 18% body fat mostly in the midsection, i've been working out for more than 12 years and last 7 years been on gear on and off (test,dbol,deca,drol,halo and eq).
i'm a local competitive powerlifter so i never bothered to cut my fat down during all those years and have no experience about cutting except the known calories in vs out with 2 grams of protein per bound.

my usual pre meet cycle for bulking and strength is around
500-750 test cyp
400-600 deca or eq
an oral like dbol 60 or drol up to 150
adex and hcg
then i usually cruise on 200 to 250 test cyp

i tried cutting for 3 weeks on 2800-3000 kcal and 260 gm of protein using 300 mg test prop and winny 50 mg but lost strength and size in the upper back and arms so i cut it short and stepped the calories and test up again as i can't afford to lose strength as i have a local meet in 4 months from now, same thing happened on test and tren and cut it short.

my question: what would u recommend to cut without losing any muscle (in regard to steroids, diet and workout) as i think the advice of just 300 mg of test and winny or masteron would work for a smaller guy or someone who is not past their natural limit yet but not for me ?
and is being flat a part of the equation that will always happen and i just have to go through ?

thanks and sorry if that was too long
 

Elvia1023

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Is this just to show he trained with high volume and twice daily? Just because MP trained up to 6 hours daily according to that article it doesn't mean the OP should just copy it. Moreover, strongmen and powerlifting are very different things even if both are strength sports. I don't understand what it really has to do with the subject matter. Yes he is one of the best strongman of all time so many would think it's a perfect example to follow. However, it's definitely not the case. Yes he looked great for his size but his diet was terrible especially when the OP clearly wants to get to 10% body fat. No one is stating training twice per day is bad but again it's apples and oranges. I know MP was lean for a strongman but it's besides the point. His diet was terrible and do you have any idea how many drugs he took? Obviously MP was genetically gifted and he trained hard for many hours and ate total shit and loads of cals but all that training and the insane amount of drugs he took enabled him to look good and be lean.

You can't just get someone who does everything differently to suddenly adopt that routine and it have the same results. We are talking about one of the greatest strongman of all time. Just like a swimmer shouldn't just copy Michael Phelps's insane diet either. I am not arguing that the OP couldn't train twice per day but his issue is predominantly a dietary one. If he improves his diet then he can do the same with his training. If he started training even more that would just worsen the situation. In a perfect situation he could be on 5000 cals and training super hard and getting leaner and he wouldn't have to move down much but he isn't. So in his current situation and with his current goals surely the only realistic possibility for him to drop body fat and maintain as much strength as possible is to move down very slowly. I should note I am also an advocate of increasing energy expenditure (training) instead of lowering calories but in this case I think adding more training on top of a every changing diet is not the optimal approach but it could be done later on. IL2 made some excellent points and he could do that but obviously he needs to get leaner first so he will have to change things to do that.

OP I am sorry if I have made any assumptions about your routine but just going from what you have posted. You actually look really good and when most say they are 18% bf they are closer to 25% and you are clearly the complete opposite. Maybe if you supply more details people on here can help you out better. How many cals are you currently on and how long have you been following that diet? How much do you train?
 

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