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Really Disheartening Fertility News From Doctor

Matsuo Munefusa

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Yea a couple people have mentioned this. I didn't do a test beforehand. Statistically speaking, I doubt that's the issue but of course it's totally possible. I'm not sure what to do in that case other than get a scan with my doctor.



Yes but not legally in the US. I don't trust UGLs. Too many stories of issues there.



Wow, you got up to 250 million and still needed to use IVF? Were there issues on your wife's end as well?

Yea like you said I just don't trust the other foreign pharmacies. Too many stories of bunk product, contaminated product, etc.

Empower unfortunately does not have HMG or I'd consider it with them.
Why don’t you order around 200 vials of HMG and have a vial analyzed by a lab in the USA? Should come out WAY less than $2,000/month. I haven’t priced HMG in years but I doubt even 30 vials (one a day) is 2k USD.
 

NEMSZ

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Yes but not legally in the US. I don't trust UGLs. Too many stories of issues there.

No man, not UGL, you’re misinterpreting UGL with Generics... Majority of the medicine here in the US is made over seas in either China or India in FDA approved GMP facilities... For example, my Pharmaceutical Testosterone that I’m prescribed here in the US is Sun Pharma, It’s manufactured in India but distributed by a company here in the US.. My numbers are on par with every Pharma Test I’ve ever run in the past (Watson, Bayer/Schering, Omnadren etc).. It’s just cheaper for these companies... The same thing with my Cialis I’m prescribed.. Eli Lilly costs 20x more, but because it can be generically made by an FDA Facility somewhere else, instead of paying $300 for 30 pills I pay $14 for 30 pills lol and IT WORKS...

There’s a few guys who’ve commented on here who got their numbers up who used the same source...

Your blood work, paying 4-5x what I’m paying at the same dose and my blood work came out exactly the same 24 hours post injection of HMG/FSH...

I’m just saying as a suggestion so you don’t break the bank, if things don’t end up working exactly how you want by upping the dose etc then you can put that money towards other routes..

I’ll get that blood work done again in about 2 weeks 2 hours post injection to see the numbers at their peak and post them here for you..
 

NEMSZ

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Why don’t you order around 200 vials of HMG and have a vial analyzed by a lab in the USA? Should come out WAY less than $2,000/month. I haven’t priced HMG in years but I doubt even 30 vials (one a day) is 2k USD.

Thats an insane amount of HMG...

There’s 2 sources I know that sell legit Pharma HMG and that would cost anywhere between $8,000-$15,000 depending the bulk in which it’s bought and the brand etc...

Sure, it beats $2k a month in the long run for a MUCH higher dose and longer duration, but I wouldn’t fork over that amount of cash at once lol... I grab my stuff a couple months worth at a time..
 

Needmassquick

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Yes, good point. However, my sex drive was horrendous. Without the test, it was just a process to have sex. Worst feeling ever! Plus my wife had an inflamed uterus, in which she has to take a steroid and a baby aspirin to improve the blood for to her uterine tissue. We were trying for about two years and the stress was horrible, therefore we both felt IVF was the most ideal way to go.

Did you measure your testosterone on your protocol? Interestingly my testosterone is high and my libido is also quite high. I'd think yours would be too with that much HCG.

Why don’t you order around 200 vials of HMG and have a vial analyzed by a lab in the USA? Should come out WAY less than $2,000/month. I haven’t priced HMG in years but I doubt even 30 vials (one a day) is 2k USD.

What about contaminants? You can certainly test if the product has HMG in it but how are you going to know what else is in there?

Do you have a recommendation for where to get an analysis done?

No man, not UGL, you’re misinterpreting UGL with Generics... Majority of the medicine here in the US is made over seas in either China or India in FDA approved GMP facilities... For example, my Pharmaceutical Testosterone that I’m prescribed here in the US is Sun Pharma, It’s manufactured in India but distributed by a company here in the US.. My numbers are on par with every Pharma Test I’ve ever run in the past (Watson, Bayer/Schering, Omnadren etc).. It’s just cheaper for these companies... The same thing with my Cialis I’m prescribed.. Eli Lilly costs 20x more, but because it can be generically made by an FDA Facility somewhere else, instead of paying $300 for 30 pills I pay $14 for 30 pills lol and IT WORKS...

There’s a few guys who’ve commented on here who got their numbers up who used the same source...

Your blood work, paying 4-5x what I’m paying at the same dose and my blood work came out exactly the same 24 hours post injection of HMG/FSH...

I’m just saying as a suggestion so you don’t break the bank, if things don’t end up working exactly how you want by upping the dose etc then you can put that money towards other routes..

I’ll get that blood work done again in about 2 weeks 2 hours post injection to see the numbers at their peak and post them here for you..

I've heard so many stories about generics being fake. "bunk chinese generics" are commonly talked about. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I get worried about these sort of things. I think most people doing what you're doing makes sense, but I've run into health issues from medication bullshit before so I'm cautious.

Also, you guys know they switched from HMG to FSH for a reason right? FSH is a recombinant formulation, HMG is derived from urine and risks contamination.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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Did you measure your testosterone on your protocol? Interestingly my testosterone is high and my libido is also quite high. I'd think yours would be too with that much HCG.



What about contaminants? You can certainly test if the product has HMG in it but how are you going to know what else is in there?

Do you have a recommendation for where to get an analysis done?



I've heard so many stories about generics being fake. "bunk chinese generics" are commonly talked about. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I get worried about these sort of things. I think most people doing what you're doing makes sense, but I've run into health issues from medication bullshit before so I'm cautious.

Also, you guys know they switched from HMG to FSH for a reason right? FSH is a recombinant formulation, HMG is derived from urine and risks contamination.
A quick google search would turn up labs that could test for contaminants/purity. I have a lot of sympathy for you but you have to think for yourself at some point. This is your life, your family. Good luck man.
 

danieltx

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Did you measure your testosterone on your protocol? Interestingly my testosterone is high and my libido is also quite high. I'd think yours would be too with that much HCG.



What about contaminants? You can certainly test if the product has HMG in it but how are you going to know what else is in there?

Do you have a recommendation for where to get an analysis done?



I've heard so many stories about generics being fake. "bunk chinese generics" are commonly talked about. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I get worried about these sort of things. I think most people doing what you're doing makes sense, but I've run into health issues from medication bullshit before so I'm cautious.

Also, you guys know they switched from HMG to FSH for a reason right? FSH is a recombinant formulation, HMG is derived from urine and risks contamination.
It's pretty clear your mind's made up so there's no point in continuing to post. You won't accept people telling you your issues likely existed before AAS use, you won't accept the possible solutions people are recommending, you have a retort for anything people tell you.

Go try to make this work with your own methods and let us know how it goes.
 

Needmassquick

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It's pretty clear your mind's made up so there's no point in continuing to post. You won't accept people telling you your issues likely existed before AAS use, you won't accept the possible solutions people are recommending, you have a retort for anything people tell you.

Go try to make this work with your own methods and let us know how it goes.

lol no one has said my issues "likely" existed before AAS. Kaladryn, rightly so, said there is that possibility. I realize there is that possibility, and never said it wasn't possible. I said, statistically speaking, it is unlikely which is just a fact (he cited that 10+% of the male population has issues). I even asked Kaladryn what his next step would be (i.e. what test / next step would you take if he thinks it's a prior issue).

Other than that, I have listened to and responded to every single post. What you're referring to is people telling me financial solutions like ordering generics from overseas, which I don't need because I don't have a financial problem. Yes it's expensive but that's my choice to spend that amount and it's not stopping me because I am in a good place financially.

Also, you do realize there have been many many different options mentioned? Some of which are contradictory (Kaladryn literally said he would recommend not following the advice here). I would by necessity not follow many people's advice here because they contradict.

I already said I am going to follow the advice given to increase the dose of HCG and increase the dose of FSH. At least half of the posters here and 3 doctors (sports med doc, urologist, and endocrinologist) all were ok with that plan. In fact, the only thing recommended that I haven't moved forward with yet is clomid.
 

TheOtherOne55

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I dont think daniel meant any harm at all Needmass — but right now you're VERY EARLY ON in your journey and just need to put your head down and be open.

If you are a long-term gear user, then you already know to take your Dr's advice with a grain of salt. Most are old and uneducated in this type of treatment for guys like us. And i say guys like us because im 6 months into the fertility process right now. Going thru the same shit. So you're at 4 months in and nothing is happening? Cool. There are dudes on here who went 2 years with that....put your head down, keep your HCG + FSH/HMG and throw in clomid (if it can't hurt, why are you pushing back?). Unless you have severe side effects from it, add it in and stop finding excuses.

If i've learned anything from the extremely educated guys who've gone thru this (SIDES in the man), its that this is very individual thing...sometimes guys get lucky in 3 months, for others its like 2 years. You and I are probably in the middle. It sucks and its frustrating but this is a "get thru 6 months...evaluate....go another 6 months...evaluate" type of thing. You are very early on.
 

Needmassquick

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I dont think daniel meant any harm at all Needmass — but right now you're VERY EARLY ON in your journey and just need to put your head down and be open.

If you are a long-term gear user, then you already know to take your Dr's advice with a grain of salt. Most are old and uneducated in this type of treatment for guys like us. And i say guys like us because im 6 months into the fertility process right now. Going thru the same shit. So you're at 4 months in and nothing is happening? Cool. There are dudes on here who went 2 years with that....put your head down, keep your HCG + FSH/HMG and throw in clomid (if it can't hurt, why are you pushing back?). Unless you have severe side effects from it, add it in and stop finding excuses.

If i've learned anything from the extremely educated guys who've gone thru this (SIDES in the man), its that this is very individual thing...sometimes guys get lucky in 3 months, for others its like 2 years. You and I are probably in the middle. It sucks and its frustrating but this is a "get thru 6 months...evaluate....go another 6 months...evaluate" type of thing. You are very early on.

Thanks man, no arguments there.

Also just to answer you regarding clomid, I'm totally open to it. I was just saying I didn't see how it would work mechanistically, and was stating that all 3 of these doctors (2 of whom do actually work with a lot of bodybuilders and former users) said it's pointless. Gotgame, who is well respected here, also said it. But at some here have pointed out we don't know everything and it's something I'm willing to add. Just need to get one of these docs to prescribe it. Today was my first day of the higher doses of the other medications.

And yea, I know it's still early. I feel bad for my wife as she's very ready and I am too frankly, it was my mistake for not starting this protocol earlier but I try not to dwell on that and just look ahead. SIDES and others here have been very helpful and I'm getting more and more excited for when the day finally comes.
 

KillerStack

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I'm wondering if there's anything to Palumbo's theory that taking a lot of test can improve fertility in som cases by increasing intratesticular testosterone? I think someone in this thread mentioned this also. I have also noticed that testicle size varies a lot day by day even while being on a decades long cycle, sometimes they are big so there's some type of activity going on even after all this time. I can't be the only one to notice this?

I think Proviron is supposed to improve some semen parameters as well.
 

MKSuccess500

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Someone posted this earlier. I don't want to be negative but your doctor could be right. In this study even after 52 weeks of hcg and this fsh analog only 78% of patients got above 1 million sperm. So 22% never got there. And even then, average sperm concentration at the end was 5 million/ml. Meaning IVF would be required. Lastly, if you look at the actual graph in figure 2b you can see that only 3/18 subjects got a total count above 20 million. Based on this, I'd say your doctor is accurate.
 

MKSuccess500

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For whoever said hms is superior to fsh

Human menopausal gonadotropin has low specific activity for FSH; 95% of proteins are co-purified urinary proteins that lack LH or FSH activity. These contaminant proteins are believed to contribute to the hypersensitivity reactions that sometimes are encountered with hMG. In addition, hMG must be administered IM, which may lead to poor compliance, particularly if clinic visits are necessary.
Improved purification of FSH from urine led to the development of highly purified urinary FSH with high specific activity (10,000 IU/mg of protein versus 150 IU/mg of protein for hMG). This preparation allows SC self-injection, which is convenient, less painful, and encourages good compliance.


 

NEMSZ

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For whoever said hms is superior to fsh

Human menopausal gonadotropin has low specific activity for FSH; 95% of proteins are co-purified urinary proteins that lack LH or FSH activity. These contaminant proteins are believed to contribute to the hypersensitivity reactions that sometimes are encountered with hMG. In addition, hMG must be administered IM, which may lead to poor compliance, particularly if clinic visits are necessary.
Improved purification of FSH from urine led to the development of highly purified urinary FSH with high specific activity (10,000 IU/mg of protein versus 150 IU/mg of protein for hMG). This preparation allows SC self-injection, which is convenient, less painful, and encourages good compliance.



Well OP is using FSH.... I’m using a generic HMG by Bayer... We both injected the same dose and did blood work 24 hours later and both our FSH levels were exactly the same..... Sooooooooooo 🤷🏻‍♂️ Lol
 

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A few people have commented that they had success with ICSI. I'm looking up prices of IVF and seeing that per cycle can be $15-20,000+. Wow. Did you have to pay that or was it covered by insurance? It's crazy these drugs have no insurance coverage.
 

NEMSZ

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A few people have commented that they had success with ICSI. I'm looking up prices of IVF and seeing that per cycle can be $15-20,000+. Wow. Did you have to pay that or was it covered by insurance? It's crazy these drugs have no insurance coverage.

But...... I thought financially you weren’t worried about anything.... Lol just messing with you bro...

Yea that shit is extremely expensive, I’ve seen some places as high as $30k I guess depending on where you’re at..

But that’s the whole reason I was saying about the more economical route of HMG/HCG earlier in the thread... You could easily be putting away $1k+ a month to the side in case you’d need to go the IVF or similar route.. Try the protocol for a full year, or more and see where you get while saving the rest of the cash you would’ve used anyway.. And worse case you’ve got it ready for some type of IVF or other solution...

I said it because imagine spending a year or 18 months trying with a $2k a month protocol and you’re $24k-36k in and then you gota do a $20k procedure...

I mean if you’re doing that well for yourself then more power to you my friend... I’m personally doing pretty good for myself aaaaaaaand I cringe at the thought of ever having to pay a $30k procedure for a baby and that’s if it works the first time lol...
 

Needmassquick

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But...... I thought financially you weren’t worried about anything.... Lol just messing with you bro...

Yea that shit is extremely expensive, I’ve seen some places as high as $30k I guess depending on where you’re at..

But that’s the whole reason I was saying about the more economical route of HMG/HCG earlier in the thread... You could easily be putting away $1k+ a month to the side in case you’d need to go the IVF or similar route.. Try the protocol for a full year, or more and see where you get while saving the rest of the cash you would’ve used anyway.. And worse case you’ve got it ready for some type of IVF or other solution...

I said it because imagine spending a year or 18 months trying with a $2k a month protocol and you’re $24k-36k in and then you gota do a $20k procedure...

I mean if you’re doing that well for yourself then more power to you my friend... I’m personally doing pretty good for myself aaaaaaaand I cringe at the thought of ever having to pay a $30k procedure for a baby and that’s if it works the first time lol...
lol! Everyone has their limits. It would be worth it for a kid, but I didn't expect the whole journey to cost $50k. For what it's worth, I did check out the pharmacy you mentioned.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/andr.12128 as I'm continuing my deep dive into the research, I see I was pretty clearly uninformed and relied too much on random anecdote. This is an interesting paper for anyone interested. It shows that those dealing with infertility due to post-pubertal problems (most people on this forum) have the best chance of success, but interesting all groups took close to a year to show any sperm and 2 years for max sperm. Amazing, I really had no idea. It was foolish of me to not consider this earlier, I guess I just bought into the idea that everyone on forums takings HCG for a few months and is fine.

Study also shows that about half of those who wanted to got pregnant, with the sperm count at the time of conception ranging from 0.1 to 156 million per ml, again surprising.
 

Needmassquick

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Here is another good one. This brings up the clomid issue, and in fact even though the subjects were on HCG they did see an increase in both LH and FSH while taking the HCG + SERM. Now I understand that in theory clomid should not be needed with HCG+FSH but if clomid can raise LH in the presence of HCG I don't see why it couldn't also raise FSH in the presence of exogenous FSH. This would be a really interesting question to pose to GotGame but regardless I think this is some good evidence for adding clomid.

Also, this study notes that HCG+FSH was not superior to HCG+SERMs but keep in mind there was only one subject on FSH so there's no way the study would be powered enough to show a difference. In reality we know FSH adds a ton to the protocol but still I think this could support adding clomid on top.
 

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A few people have commented that they had success with ICSI. I'm looking up prices of IVF and seeing that per cycle can be $15-20,000+. Wow. Did you have to pay that or was it covered by insurance? It's crazy these drugs have no insurance coverage.
My lady’s insurance covered about $11,000 of our fertility journey (most insurances don’t cover it at all so we got lucky there). The whole thing cost us close to 30,000$. We did iui one time, then ivf with icsi twice. The second time ended up working. The meds are also extremely expensive. The best way to save on the meds are ordering from an overseas pharmacy after your fertility doctor writes you the script.
 

beast405

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A few people have commented that they had success with ICSI. I'm looking up prices of IVF and seeing that per cycle can be $15-20,000+. Wow. Did you have to pay that or was it covered by insurance? It's crazy these drugs have no insurance coverage.
Icsi was great for my situation. I truly believe my lady wouldn’t have been pregnant right now if it weren’t for us doing ivf with icsi
 

Needmassquick

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My lady’s insurance covered about $11,000 of our fertility journey (most insurances don’t cover it at all so we got lucky there). The whole thing cost us close to 30,000$. We did iui one time, then ivf with icsi twice. The second time ended up working. The meds are also extremely expensive. The best way to save on the meds are ordering from an overseas pharmacy after your fertility doctor writes you the script.

Man oh man. I'm almost certain my insurance will not cover anything.

So you still needed a script to order the meds from an overseas pharmacy? Or you mean just so you know specifically what to order?
 

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