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So what's the verdict on IGF-Lr3?

Meathamer

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Last night I read over 100 post about IGF-Lr3 and haven't come up with idea on when to take it....pre-work.... Post work... 2 hrs after workout or at night or morning..... And what is effective dose? 20mcg-100mcg's....how many ticks on the slin pin???? Thanks for any help
Respect,
MH
 

stankyleg

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I feel the same way bro. This is what I decided. I'm running GHRP-6 100mcg/Sermorelin 100mcg preworkout (515pm)
peg mgf post workout.(615pm)
GHRP-6 100mcg/Sermorelin 100mcg preBed (11pm)
Igf 1 and 2 20mcg each, IM (7am) with carbs and apple cider vinager

I dont know if it's "right," but that's what I'm tryin based on what I've read
 

plang

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The verdict is there is no verdict....trial and error and personal
Experience will be ur best guide.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Ronnie23

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I feel the same way bro. This is what I decided. I'm running GHRP-6 100mcg/Sermorelin 100mcg preworkout (515pm)
peg mgf post workout.(615pm)
GHRP-6 100mcg/Sermorelin 100mcg preBed (11pm)
Igf 1 and 2 20mcg each, IM (7am) with carbs and apple cider vinager

I dont know if it's "right," but that's what I'm tryin based on what I've read

How would u compare sermorelin to cjc1295?
Which one do u think gives u more results/or stronger?
 

juicin

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Last night I read over 100 post about IGF-Lr3 and haven't come up with idea on when to take it....pre-work.... Post work... 2 hrs after workout or at night or morning..... And what is effective dose? 20mcg-100mcg's....how many ticks on the slin pin???? Thanks for any help
Respect,
MH

How many "ticks" on the slin pin is relative to how you reconstitute it. For example if you take 1 ml of bac water and add it to 1000mcg of IGF, then 10iu on the pin would be an equivalent of 1/10 of the entire 1000mcg you mixed (which would equal 100mcg).

And as plang said, you need to figure out how it works best for you.

From a scientific standpoint it seems it would be best to use several hrs after a workout.

Others have gotten great results pre workout (note that when i tried this method the pumps were simply too much for me)
 

forklift28

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How many "ticks" on the slin pin is relative to how you reconstitute it. For example if you take 1 ml of bac water and add it to 1000mcg of IGF, then 10iu on the pin would be an equivalent of 1/10 of the entire 1000mcg you mixed (which would equal 100mcg).

And as plang said, you need to figure out how it works best for you.

From a scientific standpoint it seems it would be best to use several hrs after a workout.

Others have gotten great results pre workout (note that when i tried this method the pumps were simply too much for me)

It's all theory bro..first go around I did IGF-1 LR3 pre w/o then MGF immediately..now I got some PEG-MGF and what I am going to try is run it after w/o..then about 12 to 15 hours later IGF1 LR3..but it did work for me with my first method,just going to try different methods.I agree that sometimes the pumps from pre w/o were too much..And I believe that a dose b/w 20 and 40mcgs is all you need..the insane pumps came from 80mcg's..cut it down and they were tolerable.My legs were a weak bodypart,I don't know how many inches I have added but they definitely grew more than ever before.
 

JUICEDUP3

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well i have some igf-lr3 on the way.. i been on hgh green tops for 7 months now.. was gonna throw the igf in w the growth. im trying to figure out whats best for me too!! ive herd just add it in with the growth twice a week, everyday, blah, blah, blah............ i take my growth 5 days on 2 off at 5iu. let me know what u guys think, anybody with experience??
 

chemicalwarrior

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I can only give you my verdict on it:

Pros- Works like a fast-acting insulin, shuttling nutrients into muscle etc. But, some claim little to no desensitization to insulin when using it. So, if we're basing it on this fact alone then it'd be best used pre-workout to shuttle dextrose and bcaas, creatine, glutamine etc. into your muscles while you workout. Great pumps, same results as using humalog/humalin-r but possibly without the desensitization- which is a big plus.

Also, you can use it before a pig out/cheat meal to do who knows what. I mean, maybe it'll help drive more nutrients into muscle than fat, I don't know. Some claim this. I've tried it. I can say this, I can eat and eat on it when used this way!

Cons- It is not the be all/end all for hyperplasia as some claim it to be. Will you get some "differentiation" of satellite cells? Probably. But, I'm guessing
the added 13 aminos (to the 70 original amino acid chain) makes it a bit less viable as a true to form igf-1 and makes it quite a bit more likely to work as an insulin. I just really don't hear about guys getting great site-enhancement results from it as some did with the original igf-1 rh. I suspect that des (1-3) igf-1 is a better choice for this application.

So, the verdict... Is it worth it? Depends on what your goals are and how you intend to use it. How much to use is a personal choice- I go with about 40 mcg at a time or so. Maybe I could use more.

I think a lot is being overlooked in the realm of igf-1 drugs and how to use them for hyperplasia though. Why in the world would someone take peg-mgf and igf1-lr3 together to induce hyperplasia/site-enhancement? I mean other than ignorance, as I once did. I say this because they are both long acting. mgf initiates the hyperplasia process (activation/proliferation) but inhibits the final phase (differentiation). Igf-1 causes differentiation, but inhibits proliferation. Take a long acting version of each and what the hell have you got? A cluster fuck where nothing productive is happening except a lot of insulin-like effects- but this isn't ideal for site-enhancement.

Plus, mgf is only produced, naturally, within the muscle cells themselves, never found systemically. So, when we inject it, we're basically "hoping" some of it will get into the intended muscle cells and still work as intended. Outside of the actual cells themselves it just acts like and is recognized as igf-1! So, again, no matter how we approach injecting mgf, the results are iffy at best because even if some gets into the cells and starts the proliferation process on satellite cells, whatever is left over on the outside of the cells (on the igf-1 receptors) will be causing differentiation and inhibiting proliferation- all at the same time!!

Do these two processes (proliferation and differentiation) interfere with eachother? Of course they do. How else would they work in tandem in a natural environment. So, what do we do then? How do we get proliferation without accidentally causing differentiation by mistake?

I've got some theories. But, that's all they are at this point. I need to go to bed right now. But, I'll finish this line of thinking tomorrow. I think where I'm going with this makes perfect sense, but it's way different than the commonly accepted ideas that are out there right now.
 

plang

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I've used peg mgf/igf.....mgf/igf.....and now igf/mgf/peg mgf....without some sort of controls it's impossible to quantify results....and without knowing how mgf or igf exogenously admin I really think anyone declaring anything with any sort of finality is being shirt sighted (nit directed at CW....he said theories very clearly).....some other(s) who were on here till recent events was trying very hard to make that he "figured it out".......but in my mind if dat himsefl declares emphatically "I don't know" I'm not going to try to figure out the end all be all protocol....but I am going to continue to change, refine, and find out what doesn't work....equally on anecdotal data as well as on scientific data/theory....
 

Seabiscuit Hogg

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Half life of igf lr3 ?

Exactly what is the half life of igf lr3? I've heard different things. Started it again pre workout yesterday at 33 mcgs. Love the carb and creatine uptake on this. I mixed the pre w/o malto/whey/creatine with grapefruit juice too. This also helps drive carbs/creatine into muscle.
 

JUICEDUP3

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so its best to take igf lr3 before workout? i was told it would b ok to sub q it with my 5iu of hgh before bed? lmk what u guys think, please..
 

plang

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so its best to take igf lr3 before workout? i was told it would b ok to sub q it with my 5iu of hgh before bed? lmk what u guys think, please..

With gh is defintely one time u want to avoid...they somewhat counteract each other
 

TNH

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I had great results shooting pre workout, but I doubt it really matters (unless you are taking other peps). One thing is for sure, I don't buy into that bi-lateral crap or even site growth with LR3. (MGF may be a different story).

I recently started using MGF, so I have switched my IGF1 to evening time.
I am going to play around with night before a workout and night of a workout to see if I can find any differences (I weight train EOD).
 

chemicalwarrior

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With gh is defintely one time u want to avoid...they somewhat counteract each other

I've heard a couple different things on this. Some say that exogenous insulin (like lr3) does not affect a dose of GH or gh pulse created by peptides. But, even if that is 100% accurate, you still want to have carbs/protein (or aminos) in your system when using lr3 or any other short acting insulin- which shuts down the Gh pulse anyhow. So, you are right. Plus, before bed is a terrible time to take lr3, humalog or anything like that!
 

chemicalwarrior

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Site enhancement theory...

Skip to the end in bold for the short answer part of this. :) Unedited and again, like Plang mentioned, just theory. But, let me know your thoughts on it.

I've mentioned this somewhat before. But, the more I think about it and it sinks in, the more I believe it makes sense. It's clear that mgf is most effective when produced within the muscle cells themselves- it's the only place mgf can "act as" mgf and do it's thing! Mgf is produced during a workout- especially when concentrating on the eccentric portion of the movement. This is one of the ways we grow and recover from training. It's basically a response to micro-trauma within the muscle.

As bodybuilders, we tend to think that everything has to be injected to be most effective. But, how much mgf is getting "inside" the actual muscle cells to be effective when site-injected? At best, I imagine a minimal amount is going to work as needed. The rest is hanging around systemically. He who was recently banned speculated that proliferation could be triggered by injecting peg-mgf into the muscle worked directly after a workout and that it would last as long as the peg-mgf was in your system. Really? Because only a small amount is getting into the muscle (in the form of "bleed through") and that, once used for proliferation, isn't likely to continue to work indefinitely. What is long lasting in that scenario is the "rest" of the peg-mgf which is floating around systemically.

My point to the prior paragraph is that there is only "so much" we can do to induce proliferation (activation of satellite cells) via injection with mgf or peg-mgf and that having a longer-acting mgf like peg-mgf will not necessarilly lead to greater results in this area. All the successful studies on mgf were done with viral techniques where the muscles were programmed (by introduction of a virus) to produce mgf. This is where we see the 20% muscle weight gains etc. not by injection. Unfortunately, we gym rats don't have access (that I know of) to that kind of technology!

But, there are alternatives. Years back Pat Arnold talked about an alternative site-enhancement technique using a solution containing lambda carrageenan- a seaweed extract usually injected into meat products to provide a thicker, heavier product. Basically scientists injected a solution of various % of lambda carrageenan in a controlled way to produce specific muscle damage in leg muscles and tendons in mice. At some percentages the muscle damage was too great, at others it didn't produce a noticeable effect. But, at certain percentages the right amount of muscle damage was caused triggering a steady release of mgf in an effort to repair the damage.

I was able to get ahold of some lambda carrageenan powder and I did my own little experiment. To be honest, so many injections were needed and such a high volume of product that I got tired of messing with it before I saw any real measurable results. But, years later when I gave syntherol a try, the constant dull-ache from the injections reminded my of my brief experiment with the carrageenan. See, there's nothing inherent in carrageenan that causes mgf expression. It's just an irritant- but, a controllable one. You can obviously get the same kind of inflamation from a shot of test prop or some other injectable like syntherol.

What stands out to me about the scientific study on mice is that even the lower doses of carrageenan had some effect and elicited some mgf expression, but it wasn't enough to have substantial results. That tells me that mgf expression is somewhat determined by the amount of irritation caused. As long as there isn't too much to "come back from" where the muscle is seriously compromised, there should be mgf expression. It's my theory that this is a part of what makes syntherol site-enhancement effective. The other parts are increased blood flow/nutrient uptake and stretching of the muscle fascia.

With everyone looking for the longest acting igf-1 drug available it appears the thinking is "whatever lasts the longest is most effective!" But, that's not true in this case. While drugs like peg-mgf and igf1-lr3 will give you the best insulin like effects (when compared to their shorter-acting counterparts) we don't necessarily want to affect our system for long periods of time with igf-1! For one thing it's dangerous. Many of the receptors are in the intestines and vital organs. If there is a cancer or growth present, said igf-1 will cause that to grow at an increased rate. Plus, as it concerns site-enhancement/hyperplasia, igf-1's job is to cause "differentiation"- the part of the process that tells newly activated satellite cells to become muscle! If an igf-1 is constantly present in the system, then the actual activation of those satellite cells is inhibited!

What we want is to do is 1) Induce proliferation (activation) of satellite cells and keep that going as long and as often as possible. 2) Induce differentiation to help form new muscle tissue briefly but often.

My basic theory is to add a schedule of using DES (1-3) igf-1 to a "normal" syntherol protocol. Using the syntherol, in conjunction with hard training and a good anabolic environment, will (in theory) cause mgf to be produced within the temporarily damaged muscle. 1/2 hr to 1 hr after said muscle is trained, a dose of DES (1-3) Igf-1 is injected into the specific muscle to induce differentiation. With the DES being out of your system within a half hour or so, this should allow the muscle to go back to producing more mgf and inducing more proliferation/activation of more satellite cells.

So, let's say you are injecting your bis and tris with syntherol. They are sore and swollen, but you are still doing your regular training. You can hit each on arm day, bis on back day, and tris on chest/shoulder day etc. However you work it, I think the theory makes some sense. Let me know what you think.
 

chemicalwarrior

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To be clear, I believe igf1-lr3 makes a great short-acting insulin. And, I think the same thing about peg-mgf! They are both good for that imo.
 

plang

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To be clear, I believe igf1-lr3 makes a great short-acting insulin. And, I think the same thing about peg-mgf! They are both good for that imo.

Here's where we differ....mainly from my own results.....I think we agree thy peg mgf is a poor mans igf.....and that both igf-1 and peg mgf are not all that great for spot growth (I think regular mgf helps somewhat for spot growth, injury repair, and recovery in the injected muscle)......igf unlike insulin helps insulin sensitivity...and u think in the right conditions helps with hyperplasia.....as well as peg mgf to a lesser degree....alls I know is my current 240 is a much differnt 240 than before i dieted down....I used igf (1 + 2) throughout my prep and after.....the rebound I have had is nothing short of amazing....I have muscle across my chest and shoulders that has never been there...not bigger muscles...that's part of it...but more muscle.....as well as the injury repair igf gives.....I think it's best to use in conjuction with insulin so igf does not act as insulin.....

Again this is my opinion.....I for one am going to continue to run igf-1 lr3 until it stops making a difference....
 

chemicalwarrior

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I'll admit that my thoughts on it are kind of over-simplified. I actually agree with pretty much all you posted here. I guess I just feel there are better things for hyperplasia and for the most part lr3 will be acting as an insulin. And, yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree a bit on that I know. Bottom line is, if it works it works! You make a lot of good points. I'm not one of these guys who's closed off to other ideas, I like hearing other people's thoughts and ideas on it! Good stuff!

Here's where we differ....mainly from my own results.....I think we agree thy peg mgf is a poor mans igf.....and that both igf-1 and peg mgf are not all that great for spot growth (I think regular mgf helps somewhat for spot growth, injury repair, and recovery in the injected muscle)......igf unlike insulin helps insulin sensitivity...and u think in the right conditions helps with hyperplasia.....as well as peg mgf to a lesser degree....alls I know is my current 240 is a much differnt 240 than before i dieted down....I used igf (1 + 2) throughout my prep and after.....the rebound I have had is nothing short of amazing....I have muscle across my chest and shoulders that has never been there...not bigger muscles...that's part of it...but more muscle.....as well as the injury repair igf gives.....I think it's best to use in conjuction with insulin so igf does not act as insulin.....

Again this is my opinion.....I for one am going to continue to run igf-1 lr3 until it stops making a difference....
 

JUICEDUP3

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so pretty much it would b best to take 30-60mcg pre workout? and what did u all mean by the hgh and lr3 work against each other?? ive heard from many people its gold together.. i just dnt kno a lot about igf 3 but really wannna kno whats the best time/way to use it.. like i said ive been on hgh green tops for 7 months.
 

chemicalwarrior

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so pretty much it would b best to take 30-60mcg pre workout? and what did u all mean by the hgh and lr3 work against each other?? ive heard from many people its gold together.. i just dnt kno a lot about igf 3 but really wannna kno whats the best time/way to use it.. like i said ive been on hgh green tops for 7 months.

Yep on the pre-workout- at least that's my opinion. As far as the gh and lr3 working against eachother- here's the thing: The GH's effects become blunted in the presence of naturally spiked insulin levels. Technically igf1-lr3 is an exogenous source of insulin, so it should be safe to use with GH (in theory) and still get GH's results. But, with the igf1-lr3 you will want to take in carbs (so you don't go hypo and to maximize results!), which will spike insulin levels naturally to some degree, blunting the effects of the gh. But, you can use the gh at different times- still on an empty stomach at some later time or before the lr3 etc.
 

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