Stupidity from fitness 'expert'

[maldorf]

I think that her effectiveness is displayed by the results that she produces in her clients. There is more than one way to lose weight, and she has definetly found a good way to get there. She has years of experience working with this population of person and is one of the best in the field. Sure her diet may not be good for a bodybuilder but that doesnt mean its not right for these folks. If its not broke dont fix it. What she does works.

 

[EasyEJL]

You're looking for studies that show a loss of LBM in sedentary people at intakes above the RDI? Why?

Because unless you have some information that shows that there is an amino acid requirement for keeping fat cells alive, there is no protein need difference daily between the 120lb woman with 100lbs of lean mass, and the 220lb woman with 100lbs of lean mass. As such, we've already determined that from a protein standpoint at least Jillians diet is reasonable for her level of mass.

 

[Conciliator]

Because unless you have some information that shows that there is an amino acid requirement for keeping fat cells alive, there is no protein need difference daily between the 120lb woman with 100lbs of lean mass, and the 220lb woman with 100lbs of lean mass. As such, we've already determined that from a protein standpoint at least Jillians diet is reasonable for her level of mass.

Fat cells use free fatty acids and glucose for energy, just like most cells in the body. A large part of one's daily protein requirement goes to cover gluconeogenesis into glucose. This is why endurance exercise increases protein needs. It's also why larger people have greater protein needs.

Also, you not being able to find a study for something doesn't show anything. That's a fallacious argument called appeal to ignorance, saying that a lack of evidence against something is evidence for it. It's not. If you haven't found any papers showing what you're looking for, what you have is no evidence for anything.

 

[EasyEJL]

Fat cells use free fatty acids and glucose for energy, just like most cells in the body. A large part of one's daily protein requirement goes to cover gluconeogenesis into glucose. This is why endurance exercise increases protein needs. It's also why larger people have greater protein needs.

Also, you not being able to find a study for something doesn't show anything. That's a fallacious argument called appeal to ignorance, saying that a lack of evidence against something is evidence for it. It's not. If you haven't found any papers showing what you're looking for, what you have is no evidence for anything.

If you want to talk about bad logic, saying that a large part of protein REQUIREMENT is to cover gluconeogenesis is some pretty bad logic. Theres no requirement that the body use gluconeogenesis for glucose, if there was then ketogenic diets wouldn't work as they remain below the threshhold of gluconeogenesis. And particularly in epileptic children, those diets are followed for years at a time, with them still managing to grow successfully and add lean mass.

It is only maintenance of protein based tissue that requires amino acids, hence trying to compare Jay Cutlers 275lb stage weight protein requirement at sub 5% bf with a 5'2 woman who is 275lbs who even if she is active working out but is at 60% bf is ludicrous. Comparing overall weight without considering fat levels for REQUIREMENTS is ridiculous as where the calories come from to maintain that overall bodyweight once the amino levels are high enough to maintain protein based tissue is inconsequential.

So again since there are so many dietary experts here, what should the 220lb 5'2" woman who is at 50-55% bf and has an ideal weight of 105 eat for her diet, considering she's trying to win a significant amount of money as a part of loosing the fastest, and isn't particularly concerned with keeping any amounts of muscle beyond what a normal 105# 5'2" woman would have?

 

[gelatine]

So again since there are so many dietary experts here, what should the 220lb 5'2" woman who is at 50-55% bf and has an ideal weight of 105 eat for her diet, considering she's trying to win a significant amount of money as a part of loosing the fastest, and isn't particularly concerned with keeping any amounts of muscle beyond what a normal 105# 5'2" woman would have?

If it was substantial enough that she's willing to risk health problems and death, she should eat around 400 calories of pure protein from whey and chicken, 200 calories from fish oil, 200 calories flax seed oil, and 200 calories from olive oil a day. She should also work up to her DNP tolerance dose and walk for 10 hours a day.

That said, that's a stupid plan that is geared towards winning the contest and nothing else and shouldn't be done by anyone.

 

[Conciliator]

If you want to talk about bad logic, saying that a large part of protein REQUIREMENT is to cover gluconeogenesis is some pretty bad logic.

It's not bad logic at all when you consider that your requirements for protein intake include covering protein losses. After being digested and traveling through the portal vein, AAs are highly metabolized by the liver. The liver uses AAs for several different purposes. The primary fate of AAs is catabolism and metabolism. The BCAAs are a notable exception. Feeding has long been known to stimulate amino acid oxidation in the liver. And it's well known that the liver uses amino acids to produce glucose, particularly during dieting, in states of low glucose availability (e.g. the postabsorptive state), and in states of insulin resistance (e.g. type 2 diabetes).

Theres no requirement that the body use gluconeogenesis for glucose, if there was then ketogenic diets wouldn't work as they remain below the threshhold of gluconeogenesis.

Ketogenic diets do not cause the body to completely stop gluconeogenesis from amino acids. Early in a low-carb diet there is significant gluconeogensis from amino acids. These amino acids come from either dietary proteins or body proteins. The glucose produced is used to fuel the brain and a few other tissues that can't run on free fatty acids. After a few weeks, the brain will adapt to using primarily ketones for fuel, which spares glucose. However, the body will still require some glucose, especially as fat stores shrink and the ability to produce ketones is reduced. People lose muscle when they diet is because body proteins are used to produce glucose, for a fuel source.

And particularly in epileptic children, those diets are followed for years at a time, with them still managing to grow successfully and add lean mass.

Yes, and that doesn't change the fact that gluconeogenesis from amino acids is still occurring.

 

[Conciliator]

It is only maintenance of protein based tissue that requires amino acids

This is completely incorrect. Less than 25% of the amino acids that reach the liver even make it into the bloodstream (with most of what's released being BCAAs). For example, consider research like this where amino acids were not just ingested, but infused into the bloodstream. What happens to them? 70-75% are absorbed and used by the splanchnic bed (liver and gut) while only 25-30% are absorbed and utilized by skeletal muscle. Most of what's used by muscle are the BCAAs. However, the liver uses amino acids for all sorts of other things, including oxdiation and gluconeogenesis. It's not "only maintenance of protein based tissue that requires amino acids." Protein-based tissue is not even the primary destination for amino acids.

hence trying to compare Jay Cutlers 275lb stage weight protein requirement at sub 5% bf with a 5'2 woman who is 275lbs who even if she is active working out but is at 60% bf is ludicrous. Comparing overall weight without considering fat levels for REQUIREMENTS is ridiculous as where the calories come from to maintain that overall bodyweight once the amino levels are high enough to maintain protein based tissue is inconsequential.

Wrong. One of the major reasons obese people suffer from fasting hyperglycemia is because glucogneogenesis is accelerated, even in the face of an excess of fatty acids. Going by your logic, they don't need to take any more protein, since they have the same amount of muscle. Unfortunately, that's not the case. These obese people have greater protein intake requirements, one reason being that more is lost through gluconeogenesis. There's also the fact that they DON'T have the same amount of muscle. They actually gain a lot of muscle along with the fat, which is another point you've been ignorant of.

 

[EasyEJL]

This is completely incorrect. Less than 25% of the amino acids that reach the liver even make it into the bloodstream (with most of what's released being BCAAs). For example, consider research like this where amino acids were not just ingested, but infused into the bloodstream. What happens to them? 70-75% are absorbed and used by the splanchnic bed (liver and gut) while only 25-30% are absorbed and utilized by skeletal muscle. Most of what's used by muscle are the BCAAs. However, the liver uses amino acids for all sorts of other things, including oxdiation and gluconeogenesis. It's not "only maintenance of protein based tissue that requires amino acids." Protein-based tissue is not even the primary destination for amino acids.
Wrong. One of the major reasons obese people suffer from fasting hyperglycemia is because glucogneogenesis is accelerated, even in the face of an excess of fatty acids. Going by your logic, they don't need to take any more protein, since they have the same amount of muscle. Unfortunately, that's not the case. These obese people have greater protein intake requirements, one reason being that more is lost through gluconeogenesis. There's also the fact that they DON'T have the same amount of muscle. They actually gain a lot of muscle along with the fat, which is another point you've been ignorant of.

if any of the nonsense you are spouting is true then show a study that shows muscle loss at over .8g/kg of protein in obese people. If as you state their needs are higher, there must be proof to it. So far what you've managed to say is that the 275lb 65%bf woman would actually have HIGHER protein requirements to maintain reasonable muscle level than Jay Cutler would while training. Which is patently ridiculous. Going by your math below Cutler should need no more than 210g protein, while the obese woman would need 248g/day while dieting. Its QUITE unlikely that even at 275lbs she was getting anywhere near that as for the most part the diets of morbidly obese people tend to get large amounts of their caloric intake from fats and carbs, the easy comfort foods.

The famous exercise scientists Tipton and Wolfe explained here that "Therefore, it can be argued that athletes may need more protein than sedentary individuals. Recommendations of 1.2–1.7 g protein per kg BW per day have
commonly been made." They state in their conclusion that "Finally, this review is not meant to advocate very high protein intakes for athletes, but merely to point out that it is possible, if not likely, that many athletes, especially those involved in strength and power sports, may benefit from higher intakes."

All of these figures for active individuals are greater than the RDI, and they doesn't even address dieting, which increases protein requirements even further. For example, in the reference above, Phillips recognizes that it is not only beneficial, but necessary to increase protein while dieting up to 25% of calories. That's a good 2g/kg. If you'd like, I can post several other references on how dieting adds to the numbers already shown above. I completely disagree that 60-80g is "plenty" for someone 220 lbs who is active and "and trying to loose fat." That's not plenty and definitely not optimal. In fact, the range is even less than the RDI for someone that weight.

Given all that, it should be simple for you to find a study that shows muscle loss in obese individuals dieting at levels above .8g/kg of protein, but below 2g as you state they need and still loosing muscle tissue

 

[EasyEJL]

It's not bad logic at all when you consider that your requirements for protein intake include covering protein losses. After being digested and traveling through the portal vein, AAs are highly metabolized by the liver. The liver uses AAs for several different purposes. The primary fate of AAs is catabolism and metabolism. The BCAAs are a notable exception. Feeding has long been known to stimulate amino acid oxidation in the liver. And it's well known that the liver uses amino acids to produce glucose, particularly during dieting, in states of low glucose availability (e.g. the postabsorptive state), and in states of insulin resistance (e.g. type 2 diabetes).

Again, its totally fictitious logic. There is no REQUIREMENT that glucose come from gluconeogenesis. Can it and does it frequently? Yes, but your glucose needs dont have to come from it, and has no need to be your primary energy source. You won't loose muscle tissue so long as the muscle tissue is receiving enough amino acids for repair and recovery, regardless of how much in amino acids goes to glucose. So the amount of protein needs is related far more closely to amount of lean tissue than amount of overall bodyweight.

 

[Conciliator]

if any of the nonsense you are spouting is true then show a study that shows muscle loss at over .8g/kg of protein in obese people. If as you state their needs are higher, there must be proof to it. So far what you've managed to say is that the 275lb 65%bf woman would actually have HIGHER protein requirements to maintain reasonable muscle level than Jay Cutler would while training. Which is patently ridiculous. Going by your math below Cutler should need no more than 210g protein, while the obese woman would need 248g/day while dieting. Its QUITE unlikely that even at 275lbs she was getting anywhere near that as for the most part the diets of morbidly obese people tend to get large amounts of their caloric intake from fats and carbs, the easy comfort foods.

Given all that, it should be simple for you to find a study that shows muscle loss in obese individuals dieting at levels above .8g/kg of protein, but below 2g as you state they need and still loosing muscle tissue

You misunderstand. When I say that larger (and fatter) people have greater protein requirements, I'm talking about absolute intake, not intake per unit weight.

 

[Conciliator]

Again, its totally fictitious logic. There is no REQUIREMENT that glucose come from gluconeogenesis. Can it and does it frequently? Yes, but your glucose needs dont have to come from it, and has no need to be your primary energy source. You won't loose muscle tissue so long as the muscle tissue is receiving enough amino acids for repair and recovery, regardless of how much in amino acids goes to glucose. So the amount of protein needs is related far more closely to amount of lean tissue than amount of overall bodyweight.

Reread what I posted before and try to learn something about protein metabolism. The liver REQUIRES amino acids for a number of different processes, including gluconeogenesis. It utilizes far more protein for those processes than muscle does. The more fat you carry and the more insulin resistant you are, the more gluconeogenesis in the liver. Dieting increases gluconeogenesis as well. You've shown repeatedly in this thread that you have no idea what you're talking about.