Test dosage you can handle without the use of AI/DHT

[Zamun]

For me it doesn't work that way.
Whenever i add a DHT compound to a given dose of test (and AI), the SHBG binding/lowering effect od DHTs makes me more prone to estrogens sides (gyno, water, mood, libido, lethargy and so on) so i have to INCREASE AI dosage.
It's not always about balance, not for all at least.
Winstrol, masteron, proviron, var... It doesn't matter... They make me aromatize more.

What does a typical cycle look like for you?

 

[phoenix2]

What does a typical cycle look like for you?

I've never done high dose cycles, especially with test (250-300 max). For me is usually 200-250 of test plus one/two DHT compound (usually masteron and winstrol). For example, 200 test, 400 masteron and 25-30 mg of oral win per day. I've done tren 3-4 times in my life and every time the most intolerable sides where estrogens/prolactin related, so i've closed with tren.
I don't like to be too big and i respond well to AAS, so i stick to low/moderate dosage.
For AI i take exemestane or low dose of letrozole (0.625 mg eod or every third day).

 

[marssel]

Hey there,

I am wondering what the max test dose is you can handle without using an AI(Or primo/mast etc to bring e2 down), and not looking like bloated dogshit.
Do you notice a big difference in being lean and less converting to e2?

For me it seems to be around 350mg of test-e per week.

I go up to 500-600 with just a little water and no estro management but I always get scared after a few weeks and take nolva or adex, the risk just worries me too much, that said I do stay on mast so that prolly helps me

 

[Zamun]

I've never done high dose cycles, especially with test (250-300 max). For me is usually 200-250 of test plus one/two DHT compound (usually masteron and winstrol). For example, 200 test, 400 masteron and 25-30 mg of oral win per day. I've done tren 3-4 times in my life and every time the most intolerable sides where estrogens/prolactin related, so i've closed with tren.
I don't like to be too big and i respond well to AAS, so i stick to low/moderate dosage.
For AI i take exemestane or low dose of letrozole (0.625 mg eod or every third day).

Have you tried primo as your dht? Might help with your estrogen issue.

 

[dantes]

Around 200-250 with microdosing and this is how I keep it year round.

Same. Micro dosing really seems to reduce my need for an AI or DHT and I just seem to feel better all around

 

[mexbeast]

Hey there,

I am wondering what the max test dose is you can handle without using an AI(Or primo/mast etc to bring e2 down), and not looking like bloated dogshit.
Do you notice a big difference in being lean and less converting to e2?

For me it seems to be around 350mg of test-e per week.

It's all individualistic, in my 30's i was taking 1800mgs and never had any problems, d-bol on the other hand would give me problems at only 25mgs a day

 

[Zarati]

For me it doesn't work that way.
Whenever i add a DHT compound to a given dose of test (and AI), the SHBG binding/lowering effect od DHTs makes me more prone to estrogens sides (gyno, water, mood, libido, lethargy and so on) so i have to INCREASE AI dosage.
It's not always about balance, not for all at least.
Winstrol, masteron, proviron, var... It doesn't matter... They make me aromatize more.

Lower SHBG means more free E, it's crazy no one tests for Free E but we all test for Free T

 

[360]

For me it doesn't work that way.
Whenever i add a DHT compound to a given dose of test (and AI), the SHBG binding/lowering effect od DHTs makes me more prone to estrogens sides (gyno, water, mood, libido, lethargy and so on) so i have to INCREASE AI dosage.
It's not always about balance, not for all at least.
Winstrol, masteron, proviron, var... It doesn't matter... They make me aromatize more.

Same here. Proviron made me more prone to Estrogen sides. I was only on Test C 25 mg/day.

 

[cmryan]

Lower SHBG means more free E, it's crazy no one tests for Free E but we all test for Free T

Hmm, you know, I had never even given any thought to even checking if such a blood test even existed (it does). I'd never seen it in other guys' bloodwork nor had I seen it offered on the online test ordering services. Well some sites do offer it. It's just not so prominent lol.

But I am wondering what the consequence of more free estrogens means in the context of more DHT being free as well. Especially since DHT's affinity for SHBG is 20x that of E2. It would seem that less SHBG would likely have a larger effect on free DHT in most cases.

 

[KillerStack]

I never did any antiestrogens so I "handled" anything I ever tried (maybe 2g of T with other shit added). I don't know if I would have looked "harder" with an AI, kinda doubt it. But I'm not in or ever really was in contest shape. I have a friend who gets gnarly at shows and he doesn't do antiestrogens much. Last contest he added 1mg of dex for the last month but Iooking at him closely daily I couldn't really see any hardening effect from the dex. But I have seen guys on a lot of Letro looking like bloated pieces of crap so I think it's individual.

 

[Bio]

In my 20's before I ever thought about doing bloodwork, I was using anywhere from 1.2 to 1.5 grams of test with 600mg of Deca a week. I never used an AI. Physically it didn't affect me, can't say what my E2 would have been had I done bloodwork? LOL!

 

[LATS]

The issue isn't the symptoms.. many will have no symptoms even on highly escalated estro.. but it can still be doing damage.. some k ow quickly by the sides they get which are symptomatic.. but conversion is a very individual thing.. genetics.. bodyfat etc all have a say..
That being said if I had to put a number at when an AI woukd be needed based on symptoms or bloodwork id say 400mgs of test is most people limits.. sure you will have some outliers.. but that number is what ive seen from numerous people over the years..

 

[KillerStack]

The issue isn't the symptoms.. many will have no symptoms even on highly escalated estro.. but it can still be doing damage.. some k ow quickly by the sides they get which are symptomatic.. but conversion is a very individual thing.. genetics.. bodyfat etc all have a say..
That being said if I had to put a number at when an AI woukd be needed based on symptoms or bloodwork id say 400mgs of test is most people limits.. sure you will have some outliers.. but that number is what ive seen from numerous people over the years..

But then there is the discussion where some think elevated E should go with the high T, how it's protective and is pro-anabolic itself. Others think estrogen out of natural range is immediately damaging.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

For me, one 250mg/ml 10ml vial per day.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Hmm, you know, I had never even given any thought to even checking if such a blood test even existed (it does). I'd never seen it in other guys' bloodwork nor had I seen it offered on the online test ordering services. Well some sites do offer it. It's just not so prominent lol.

But I am wondering what the consequence of more free estrogens means in the context of more DHT being free as well. Especially since DHT's affinity for SHBG is 20x that of E2. It would seem that less SHBG would likely have a larger effect on free DHT in most cases.

Consider also that while 70% of protein-bound T is bound to SHBG, the other 30+% is bound to other proteins. While still accounting for most of the protein-bound T there may be other forms of albumin to consider—specifically human serum albumin (HSA), cortisol-binding globulin, and orosomucoid.

 

[LATS]

But then there is the discussion where some think elevated E should go with the high T, how it's protective and is pro-anabolic itself. Others think estrogen out of natural range is immediately damaging.

Yes.. there is a ratio.. I think one should have elevated estro if test is elevated.. but we start to see that ratio get skewed after a certain amount..
Example.. I have two buddies that take the exact same test dosage at the moment.. even the same brand.. 1250 mgs of test.. no AI.. both had blood work.. estro came back 110 for one.. 200 for the other.. now neither is complaining of issues .. and 100 is fine .. that allows estro levels to be there for lipids etc.. but I'd venture to guess that 200 is getting out of hand.. I think elevated estro is fine but only to a certain point

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Yes.. there is a ratio.. I think one should have elevated estro if test is elevated.. but we start to see that ratio get skewed after a certain amount..
Example.. I have two buddies that take the exact same test dosage at the moment.. even the same brand.. 1250 mgs of test.. no AI.. both had blood work.. estro came back 110 for one.. 200 for the other.. now neither is complaining of issues .. and 100 is fine .. that allows estro levels to be there for lipids etc.. but I'd venture to guess that 200 is getting out of hand.. I think elevated estro is fine but only to a certain point

I always feel much stronger and fuller with a good ratio. Not being very prone to estro sides, I find higher than normal estro along with really high testosterone actually feels much better to me.

Something else also strange to me is that even using the same brand, same batch of T even with zero changes, I'll have weeks where I feel psyched up like a flu-ridden gorilla and then the next week I'll start to tear up listening to Paul Simon.

As if even despite doing the same thing daily, my own body has it's own cycles.

 

[Doitagain]

Mechanistic modeling of free hormone data revealed that the conversions of T to E2 is consistent with stabile Michaelis-Menten kinetics. During im testosterone administration (up to 600mg/week), E2 level exhibits saturable increases with dose.

 

[Mufasa123]

Yes.. there is a ratio.. I think one should have elevated estro if test is elevated.. but we start to see that ratio get skewed after a certain amount..
Example.. I have two buddies that take the exact same test dosage at the moment.. even the same brand.. 1250 mgs of test.. no AI.. both had blood work.. estro came back 110 for one.. 200 for the other.. now neither is complaining of issues .. and 100 is fine .. that allows estro levels to be there for lipids etc.. but I'd venture to guess that 200 is getting out of hand.. I think elevated estro is fine but only to a certain point

I recall we hashed this out extensively on AF Board with Ulter and others. We came to similar conclusion.

Sure, elevated E2 was fine in line with elevated test but running around with screaming high E2 because one wasn't growing tits at the moment or facing other acute major sides and assuming it was fine thinking the body would hold out forever against the E2 ocean was bad policy.

All those 70s/80s pros weren't fast/immediate developers of gyno or other issues. Likely they were as or more resistant that the majority of the population here. Yet they too eventually fell and ended up subcoming. Let E2 run rampant and it will eventually win. This doesn't mean nuke E2 and run AIs like a nimrod without basis or bloods either.

I aromatize at a decent rate. Have never had any issues with gyno even running up to a gram of test in the old days. I'm okay letting E2 drift up to a certain level but I'm also not pathologically afraid of using AIs (I use aromasin as needed) nor waiting for a shit storm of high E2 to eventually cause me issues because eventually it will. People tend to get fairly extreme as if good/evil themselves were at play. The last 10 years we've seen advice for every noob to run big precautionary doses of AI (likely unnecessary for most) to today where AIs themselves are the worst drugs known to man. A wide happy medium likely exists from science and history. I'll walk it happily.

 

[LATS]

I recall we hashed this out extensively on AF Board with Ulter and others. We came to similar conclusion.

Sure, elevated E2 was fine in line with elevated test but running around with screaming high E2 because one wasn't growing tits at the moment or facing other acute major sides and assuming it was fine thinking the body would hold out forever against the E2 ocean was bad policy.

All those 70s/80s pros weren't fast/immediate developers of gyno or other issues. Likely they were as or more resistant that the majority of the population here. Yet they too eventually fell and ended up subcoming. Let E2 run rampant and it will eventually win. This doesn't mean nuke E2 and run AIs like a nimrod without basis or bloods either.

I aromatize at a decent rate. Have never had any issues with gyno even running up to a gram of test in the old days. I'm okay letting E2 drift up to a certain level but I'm also not pathologically afraid of using AIs (I use aromasin as needed) nor waiting for a shit storm of high E2 to eventually cause me issues because eventually it will. People tend to get fairly extreme as if good/evil themselves were at play. The last 10 years we've seen advice for every noob to run big precautionary doses of AI (likely unnecessary for most) to today where AIs themselves are the worst drugs known to man. A wide happy medium likely exists from science and history. I'll walk it happily.

Exactly.. like I stated just because you feel no sides does not mean there is not issues. Elevated estrogen ? Yes... within reason.. but common sense must be used..