Test dosage you can handle without the use of AI/DHT

[nothuman]

My recent results on 20mg/day test Cyp was 1081 total, 28.4 free, 42 estradiol and 112 dht. I actually just lowered my dose to 16mg/day

Good to know I’m not the only one with those results. I just lowered to 16mg yesterday.

 

[Ace0]

The issue isn't the symptoms.. many will have no symptoms even on highly escalated estro.. but it can still be doing damage.. some k ow quickly by the sides they get which are symptomatic.. but conversion is a very individual thing.. genetics.. bodyfat etc all have a say..
That being said if I had to put a number at when an AI woukd be needed based on symptoms or bloodwork id say 400mgs of test is most people limits.. sure you will have some outliers.. but that number is what ive seen from numerous people over the years..

What is the damage that is done by high estrogen? There are lots of protective benefits of estrogen as well but I'm genuinely curious what the non-observable side effects are. Also what competes with estrogen receptors? Is it DHT or does high test also mess with it?

 

[Hyper-T]

About 200mg a week for me, certainly no more than 250.

 

[LATS]

What is the damage that is done by high estrogen? There are lots of protective benefits of estrogen as well but I'm genuinely curious what the non-observable side effects are. Also what competes with estrogen receptors? Is it DHT or does high test also mess with it?

Weight gain .. fat accumulation.. ed.. gyno .. etc but the things that are not observable is the issues that high estrogen can cause issues with the prostate. Research is starting to show that prostate cancer may well be from high estrogen in men or a skewed ratio.. and dht may have some protective benefit..
I'm not scared of elevated estro.. but the key is elevated.. you'll notice young men don't get prostate cancer and their dht is high.. but older men with elevated or skewed estro ratio get the issue..

 

[danieltx]

Weight gain .. fat accumulation.. ed.. gyno .. etc but the things that are not observable is the issues that high estrogen can cause issues with the prostate. Research is starting to show that prostate cancer may well be from high estrogen in men or a skewed ratio.. and dht may have some protective benefit..
I'm not scared of elevated estro.. but the key is elevated.. you'll notice young men don't get prostate cancer and their dht is high.. but older men with elevated or skewed estro ratio get the issue..

It's also important to point out that cardioprotective benefits of estrogen when elevated - this is why women have less cardiovascular issues than men.

 

[LATS]

It's also important to point out that cardioprotective benefits of estrogen when elevated - this is why women have less cardiovascular issues than men.

100 percent agree.. no one should be scared of estrogen.. its going to be elevated to a extent being supra levels of androgens.. and that healthy. As i stated elevated is fine.. but within reason.. as I said earlier 400mgs of test is about where the elevation starts to need a AI.. I dont like AIs.. so one can add a compound like mast that is a estrogen modulator.. mast is great for many reasons. The limit is very individual. But don't be thinking that your doing 750mgs of test and your not with very elevated estro levels.. being asymptomatic is not a accurate gauge. There will be outliers who can stay in ratio at that range but most are not.

 

[alfresco]

Weight gain .. fat accumulation.. ed.. gyno .. etc but the things that are not observable is the issues that high estrogen can cause issues with the prostate. Research is starting to show that prostate cancer may well be from high estrogen in men or a skewed ratio.. and dht may have some protective benefit..
I'm not scared of elevated estro.. but the key is elevated.. you'll notice young men don't get prostate cancer and their dht is high.. but older men with elevated or skewed estro ratio get the issue..

I have always wondered, thought, the same thing.

 

[Ace0]

I have always wondered, thought, the same thing.

It falls back to the ratio, I am really curious as to what is going on if you go high with testerone and use enough DHT derivatives. Thrombosis is probably the biggest concern with elevated estrogen in my opinion, caffeine and aspirin are great things to reduce that risk.

 

[LATS]

It falls back to the ratio, I am really curious as to what is going on if you go high with testerone and use enough DHT derivatives. Thrombosis is probably the biggest concern with elevated estrogen in my opinion, caffeine and aspirin are great things to reduce that risk.

Yes its all ratio.. but its so individual its hard to determine ones proper ratio.. genetics.. bodyfat.. it all determines conversion rates.. and once you hit a certain supra amount of test your not going to stay in ratio without AI

 

[jaxino]

with 2g test and 1g mast he had e2 -65 without IA which is really good - now he does 3g test, 1g mast and 18iu serostim but he hasn't tested e2 yet but he says he doesn't see any estrogen sides

He looks great for being on 3g test....

 

[Swifto]

He looks great for being on 3g test....

He looks similar to how Phil Heath looks now on TRT and downsizing.

Genetics.

 

[Undi123]

He looks similar to how Phil Heath looks now on TRT and downsizing.

Genetics.

I do not think using that much test is the best approach for gaining size. He looks really bloated too. He says no AI, only masteron

 

[OuchThatHurts]

He looks great for being on 3g test....

I have to say I LOVE test. Test is best in my book.

 

[luki7788]

I do not think using that much test is the best approach for gaining size. He looks really bloated too. He says no AI, only masteron

exactly - he is wet and full of water from excess minerals - his ankles are swollen badly

it would look and grow much better if these 4g would be distributed differently, e.g.
1.5g test
1g EQ
800mg deca
700mg primobolan

 

[Undi123]

exactly - he is wet and full of water from excess minerals - his ankles are swollen badly

it would look and grow much better if these 4g would be distributed differently, e.g.
1.5g test
1g EQ
800mg deca
700mg primobolan

Luki, do you think adding an AI would help him to improve his results and minimise the water retention?

 

[luki7788]

Luki, do you think adding an AI would help him to improve his results and minimise the water retention?

in my opinion yes - but he would still have better results if he reduced the dose of the test and added some anabolic (masteron and its anabolic effect is very weak)

 

[LATS]

in my opinion yes - but he would still have better results if he reduced the dose of the test and added some anabolic (masteron and its anabolic effect is very weak)

I agree.. eq aromotizes at 50 percent of test and deca roughly 20 percent.. so add that to the 1.5 grams of test and you have the issues he's having.. like luki said lower that test.. make up the mg amount with masteron

 

[lntense]

Balance is key. Need estro for serotonin, tendon health, cardio health, etc. Don't want it too elevated though for cancer risk etc. and some get nasty physical sides.


It's individual, because if I didnt get tested I would never know my estro is elevated on as high as 600mg of test I don't get physical signs like itchy nips and don't hold much excess water. But my number could be 80-90 on that dose. I never take an AI but also never go over 500mg/week anymore.

 

[deejayiz]

when I was younger could run 500 a week no sides with no AI, now I don’t risk it over 350 a week.

 

[nothuman]

I tried aromasin recently for the first time (never did an AI before) to get my estradiol down on TRT. Took 6.25mg EOD. It went down to 26 but it made my joints ache so much I felt like an old man. It also lowered my IGF1 by about 40. So between that and all the horror videos about AI's I was watching on youtube that were VERY compelling and had solid evidence to back them up, I stopped.