Test dosage you can handle without the use of AI/DHT

[Mufasa123]

I tried aromasin recently for the first time (never did an AI before) to get my estradiol down on TRT. Took 6.25mg EOD. It went down to 26 but it made my joints ache so much I felt like an old man. It also lowered my IGF1 by about 40. So between that and all the horror videos about AI's I was watching on youtube that were VERY compelling and had solid evidence to back them up, I stopped.

You have a higher E2 set point. 20s is fine on my cruises but for you it's not apparently. Need to establish what's optimal for you. Very individual stuff. I don't get those symptoms until single or even low single digit/zero E2. Basically, your experience is less about AIs and more about crashing your E2 by using too much AI. Not sure what you were running but you may not need an AI at all on that dose (which is a good thing).

BTW you can get those symptoms from dhts or equipoise crashing your E2 (I have). It's not specific AIs or the method you used to crash it.

Trying to be constructive and helpful just so this is read the right way.

 

[LATS]

I tried aromasin recently for the first time (never did an AI before) to get my estradiol down on TRT. Took 6.25mg EOD. It went down to 26 but it made my joints ache so much I felt like an old man. It also lowered my IGF1 by about 40. So between that and all the horror videos about AI's I was watching on youtube that were VERY compelling and had solid evidence to back them up, I stopped.

AI sneak up on you.. ive always said they have a diffinite accumulating effect.. everything is great at week 3 then week 5 ya crash.. take the minimum amount.. try 6.25 twice a week.. but the smallest dose can start to accumulate..

 

[Doitagain]

You have a higher E2 set point. 20s is fine on my cruises but for you it's not apparently. Need to establish what's optimal for you. Very individual stuff. I don't get those symptoms until single or even low single digit/zero E2. Basically, your experience is less about AIs and more about crashing your E2 by using too much AI. Not sure what you were running but you may not need an AI at all on that dose (which is a good thing).

BTW you can get those symptoms from dhts or equipoise crashing your E2 (I have). It's not specific AIs or the method you used to crash it.

Trying to be constructive and helpful just so this is read the right way.

The pathophysiology of arthralgia from AI's has been proposed to be related to estrogen deprivation within the musculoskeletal system and we all use to stick with explanation.
You may find interesting what the latest research hypothesizes: the strongly circadian nature of these symptoms suggests circadian hormone involvement. This puts new light on some existing research findings: that estrogen depletion can increase pineal melatonin, that the ability of light to suppress pineal melatonin is more variable than once thought, and that an altered melatonin cycle is associated with rheumatoid arthritis patients, where identical circadian symptoms present. It is theorized that when AIs decrease estrogen levels, light-induced melatonin suppression (LIMS) loses efficacy, leading to an abnormal melatonin cycle as seen in rheumatoid arthritis patients, producing (via mechanisms not yet understood) the symptoms of morning stiffness. This hypothesis predicts that some patients can suppress the circadian joint pain associated with aromatase inhibitors merely by getting sufficient hours of daily retinal sunlight.
Also, fixing a vitamin D3 deficiency ameliorates joint pain in breast cancer patients using AI's, so there seems to be an actual link.

​

There's more:
AI's target the transient receptor potential ankyrin 1 (TRPA1) channel, a major pathway in pain transmission and neurogenic inflammation, and, by releasing sensory neuropeptides, neurogenic inflammation in peripheral tissues. AIs also evoke mechanical allodynia which does not undergo desensitization on prolonged AI administration. TRPA1 is a major mediator of the proinflammatory/proalgesic actions of AIs and this happens regardless of reduced estrogen level.

 

[gains4000]

I can run 1000mg without AI. As long as your body is producing enough DHT to compensate for high estrogen buildup, everything will be fine. its all about the androgen:estrogen ratio, not the estrogen level itself.

 

[bigzzz]

The pathophysiology of arthralgia from AI's has been proposed to be related to estrogen deprivation within the musculoskeletal system and we all use to stick with explanation.
You may find interesting what the latest research hypothesizes: the strongly circadian nature of these symptoms suggests circadian hormone involvement. This puts new light on some existing research findings: that estrogen depletion can increase pineal melatonin, that the ability of light to suppress pineal melatonin is more variable than once thought, and that an altered melatonin cycle is associated with rheumatoid arthritis patients, where identical circadian symptoms present. It is theorized that when AIs decrease estrogen levels, light-induced melatonin suppression (LIMS) loses efficacy, leading to an abnormal melatonin cycle as seen in rheumatoid arthritis patients, producing (via mechanisms not yet understood) the symptoms of morning stiffness. This hypothesis predicts that some patients can suppress the circadian joint pain associated with aromatase inhibitors merely by getting sufficient hours of daily retinal sunlight.
Also, fixing a vitamin D3 deficiency ameliorates joint pain in breast cancer patients using AI's, so there seems to be an actual link.

​

There's more:
AI's target the transient receptor potential ankyrin 1 (TRPA1) channel, a major pathway in pain transmission and neurogenic inflammation, and, by releasing sensory neuropeptides, neurogenic inflammation in peripheral tissues. AIs also evoke mechanical allodynia which does not undergo desensitization on prolonged AI administration. TRPA1 is a major mediator of the proinflammatory/proalgesic actions of AIs and this happens regardless of reduced estrogen level.

So in short this means an AI can still fuck you up even when your estro levels are not too low when using an AI?

 

[Doitagain]

So in short this means an AI can still fuck you up even when your estro levels are not too low when using an AI?

Yes,basically. They can cause pain (not just in joints also) even if your E2 is normal.

 

[rainstony]

I can run 500mg fine. My E2 still sits 140+ but I don't get crazy symptoms.

Once I added Eq it crashed to the teens, so I could easily run 1g with no AI if I add EQ. Maybe more

 

[bigzzz]

I can run 500mg fine. My E2 still sits 140+ but I don't get crazy symptoms.

Once I added Eq it crashed to the teens, so I could easily run 1g with no AI if I add EQ. Maybe more

That's funny. When I add EQ I aromatize even more, doesn't do shit for my e2.

 

[luki7788]

That's funny. When I add EQ I aromatize even more, doesn't do shit for my e2.

I see the same in most people - only on PM EQ crushes all e2

 

[phoenix2]

So in short this means an AI can still fuck you up even when your estro levels are not too low when using an AI?

Plasma estradiol levels are the sum of estradiol produced in the different tissues (liver, fat, muscle, bone and so on). With an AI, you can have good plasma e2 levels, but too low e2 in your joints/bone for example.

 

[cmryan]

I see the same in most people - only on PM EQ crushes all e2

Clearly, you've never read the reddit subs. And that's probably good for your mental health lol.

 

[KillerStack]

Use AI and then add Nolva/Clo as a synthetic estrogen to help with pains, muscles etc? Haha.

 

[phoenix2]

Use AI and then add Nolva/Clo as a synthetic estrogen to help with pains, muscles etc? Haha.

Raloxifene maybe... It's born to treat osteoporosis

 

[Gizmo]

Weight gain .. fat accumulation.. ed.. gyno .. etc but the things that are not observable is the issues that high estrogen can cause issues with the prostate. Research is starting to show that prostate cancer may well be from high estrogen in men or a skewed ratio.. and dht may have some protective benefit..
I'm not scared of elevated estro.. but the key is elevated.. you'll notice young men don't get prostate cancer and their dht is high.. but older men with elevated or skewed estro ratio get the issue..

I’d add hepatic adenomas to very elevated levels for long periods of time.

 

[Swifto]

One thing that hasn't been stated so far in this thread is that prolonged estrogen exposure is not good for male fertility.

Overexposure of estrogen has been shown to inhibit sertoli cell proliferation, development, and function in men.

 

[whacked]

Up to ~500mg I am usually ok.

I have noticed I aromatize a lot less in my 50s than 40s. May be in part to staying lean all the time as well.

God bless ya. I’m the opposite and I’m definitely leaner in my 50’s as overall health has become the priority for me now. I’m jelly. Lol

 

[whacked]

I’m a bloated mess on 250mg no AI.

Same and no telling what my estro levels would be as (scary high) as I’m having issues at 250/wk keeping it in range w 25mg Aroma per week. Arggg

 

[Mufasa123]

I see the same in most people - only on PM EQ crushes all e2

Sadly I'm one of these. Had never used Equip before. Ugh. Then again I'm older and get away with far more than many so good trade.

Reference:
200mg test e/ 160mg deca / NO AI = E2 105
200mg test e/ 200mg deca / 36.5mg Aromasin = E2 25

With Equipoise and No AI
750mg test e (1000mg for a bit before test)/ 600mg deca / 600mg Equipoise / 200 tren ace / NO AI = 27

Note that it was really a gram of test e before the bloods as I suspected what was happening and trying to counter it for a bit which was working. I've had single digit E2 and nothing felt this bad at its worst so I had to be zero or close. Also same deca and test batches in all tests. All E2 is Quest Ultra Sensative. Primo and mast hit my E2 as well but NOTHING like this.

 

[LATS]

Yes,basically. They can cause pain (not just in joints also) even if your E2 is normal.

Yes.. that is what many don't get.. AI have a negative impact on joints even while e2 is in range.. most studies suggest it has to do with hindering mineral absorption

 

[LATS]

Not to change the subject much.. but I have been talking fairly regular to a international bodybuilder out of kuwait/oxygen gym.. he is well know to most international competitors but maybe not so much here in the states.. he has come off a pretty impressive competitive year..
We have talked quite a bit about EQ recently.. so ill add that this competitor uses EQ as his base.. he said its pretty common there.. EQ is run like you woukd your test.. his eq can run anywhere from 850mgs to 1300 mgs.. then test would be much lower ( 350 to 500mgs) .. he says the eq has much less aromatase activity and essentially " works the same".. he also states it helps with their high volume training.. just food for thought..