The anabolic response to protein ingestion during postexercise recovery has no upper limit in magnitude and duration in vivo in humans

[AllOkJumpmaster]

Link is full Text

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666379123005402

I did feel that this was warranted to be a stand-alone post simply because this is new, and a rather novel finding disproving the long-held belief that there are caps on maximizing MPS, and could generate some good discussion. Mods, please remove if you feel this is more appropriate as a comment elsewhere.

Abstract Summary

The belief that the anabolic response to feeding during postexercise recovery is transient and has an upper limit and that excess amino acids are being oxidized lacks scientific proof. Using a comprehensive quadruple isotope tracer feeding-infusion approach, we show that the ingestion of 100 g protein results in a greater and more prolonged (>12 h) anabolic response when compared to the ingestion of 25 g protein. We demonstrate a dose-response increase in dietary-protein-derived plasma amino acid availability and subsequent incorporation into muscle protein. Ingestion of a large bolus of protein further increases whole-body protein net balance, mixed-muscle, myofibrillar, muscle connective, and plasma protein synthesis rates. Protein ingestion has a negligible impact on whole-body protein breakdown rates or amino acid oxidation rates. These findings demonstrate that the magnitude and duration of the anabolic response to protein ingestion is not restricted and has previously been underestimated in vivo in humans.

 

[need4tren]

Now imagine what a person on gear,gh and insulin can actually take in

 

[Oldwhitedude]

Link is full Text

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666379123005402

I did feel that this was warranted to be a stand-alone post simply because this is new, and a rather novel finding disproving the long-held belief that there are caps on maximizing MPS, and could generate some good discussion. Mods, please remove if you feel this is more appropriate as a comment elsewhere.

Abstract Summary

The belief that the anabolic response to feeding during postexercise recovery is transient and has an upper limit and that excess amino acids are being oxidized lacks scientific proof. Using a comprehensive quadruple isotope tracer feeding-infusion approach, we show that the ingestion of 100 g protein results in a greater and more prolonged (>12 h) anabolic response when compared to the ingestion of 25 g protein. We demonstrate a dose-response increase in dietary-protein-derived plasma amino acid availability and subsequent incorporation into muscle protein. Ingestion of a large bolus of protein further increases whole-body protein net balance, mixed-muscle, myofibrillar, muscle connective, and plasma protein synthesis rates. Protein ingestion has a negligible impact on whole-body protein breakdown rates or amino acid oxidation rates. These findings demonstrate that the magnitude and duration of the anabolic response to protein ingestion is not restricted and has previously been underestimated in vivo in humans.

Can someone help me interpret this.

Is this suggesting that an immediate post-workout very high build of protein will be beneficial to growth for the next day?

I only skimmed the paper but does it say how soon after? (Edit, okay it says immediately after)

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

Can someone help me interpret this.

Is this suggesting that an immediate post-workout very high build of protein will be beneficial to growth for the next day?

I only skimmed the paper but does it say how soon after? (Edit, okay it says immediately after)

the old belief was that MPS required a minimum of roughly 20g of protein, and sort of capped out at 40g, and anything beyond was not contributing to any further benefit regarding MPS i.e. the ceiling was 40g. this is saying they saw both a higher and longer response all the way up to 100g (and possibly even higher but they did not test higher than 100g) aka destroy a shit load of protein post-workout and make gains. That said some may argue that spikes in MPS doesn't just purely translate to gains in muscle tissue, but it does not hurt it either. So someone attempting to be as optimal as they can should eat a shit load of protein often, and especially after training.

 

[Oldwhitedude]

the old belief was that MPS required a minimum of roughly 20g of protein, and sort of capped out at 40g, and anything beyond was not contributing to any further benefit regarding MPS i.e. the ceiling was 40g. this is saying they saw both a higher and longer response all the way up to 100g (and possibly even higher but they did not test higher than 100g) aka destroy a shit load of protein post-workout and make gains. That said some may argue that spikes in MPS doesn't just purely translate to gains in muscle tissue, but it does not hurt it either. So someone attempting to be as optimal as they can should eat a shit load of protein often, and especially after training.

Thank you.

Another instance of science saying the bros were wrong, and subsequently being corrected!

 

[Doitagain]

And....once again science corroborates what many of us have been doing for decades

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

And....once again science corroborates what many of us have been doing for decades

1. Yes, 1000%
2. Any day that science can corroborate anything (or even just provide more insight / fidelity to practice) is a good day
3. Even the broiest of bros are probably still not consuming 100g+ protein in the postexercise window. this study does not mean that anyone necessarily NEEDs 100+g in the post-exercise window, but proves that not only is it not harmful or a "waste", but this evidence also provides insight that it carries more benefits than we once thought.

 

[Doitagain]

3. Even the broiest of bros are probably still not consuming 100g+ protein in the postexercise window.

Hello, I'm the broiest of bros
60g Whey ISO + 40g micellar Casein post-wo!
P.s.: @ almost 260lbs and far from natty

 

[EnhancedFatGrappler]

Oh no, here come the protein timing argues again .

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

Oh no, here come the protein timing argues again .

This evidence is not so much a protein timing argument, outside of the fact that is in the post-exercise window, as much as it is disproving that there is a cap on the amount of protein in the post-exercise window that is utilized vs wasted. This is saying not only is nothing wasted, but there was a compounding benefit up to (if not even higher) than 100+g

This data may also suggest that those following a super high protein OMAD may not be as suboptimal as most would like to believe given that the OMAD is close to the post-exercise window. Further reinforcing that total protein intake trumps timing/meal quantity as long as the majority of that intake is in the postexercise window

 

[qbkilla]

Good news in my book. Steak, Chicken, fish are good. Never understood why some people insist on lower protein...can see people eating 6k nediing to limit it somewhat for digestion...but people eating 3-4k only consuming 200g or so seems silly

 

[360]

In regards to my post workout meal, I saw more benefits in terms of strength and recovery from doubling my carb intake compared to protein intake. Baseline was 50 grams carbs and 50 grams protein.

 

[Heath82]

This evidence is not so much a protein timing argument, outside of the fact that is in the post-exercise window, as much as it is disproving that there is a cap on the amount of protein in the post-exercise window that is utilized vs wasted. This is saying not only is nothing wasted, but there was a compounding benefit up to (if not even higher) than 100+g

This data may also suggest that those following a super high protein OMAD may not be as suboptimal as most would like to believe given that the OMAD is close to the post-exercise window. Further reinforcing that total protein intake trumps timing/meal quantity as long as the majority of that intake is in the postexercise window

Is the window still considered within 60 min of exercise? And does that change if drinking an intra with eaa/hbcd? I usually get my post workout meal about 1.5 hours after my workout/finishing my intra.

 

[SAVAGEPMHNP]

Interesting! And it is refreshing to see some evidence-based research that isn't dated!!

 

[M@NU]

not surprising for me.
I did hardcore IF for about 3 years when my goal was to keep a lean, defined body and not get over 85kg@172cm.
I only ate from 7pm to 9pm.
And i did not only not lose muscle but i even built tissue.
if protein absorption was topped out at 50g this would not be possible imo

 

[totalrecomp]

From the study

To test our hypothesis, we produced intrinsically labeled milk protein, which was subsequently applied in a randomized controlled trial in human participants. Subjects were randomized to receive 25 g protein (25PRO), 100 g protein (100PRO), or a placebo (0PRO) following a single bout of resistance-type exercise.


I don't think the old studies ever went as high as 100g when looking for the ceiling. Testing 20g vs 40g may not have shown the benefits. I think the older studies did not go high enough to show any additional benefit.

I have to think most of us have been doing this amount anyways. Pretty common, at least it used to be, to have a post shake with 50g, go home, shower, then eat again with 50g from meat. At least that is what I have always done. So 100g in less than an hour for me.

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

So there are some conflating hypotheses going around based on past research. Many have heard that "the body can only absorb 30g of protein per meal" and that the rest was "wasted" That never really had any empirical data to start with and has been debunked. All protein is utilized by the body and so all are all calories. The other thought that did have empirical data was that roughly 20g was necessary to fully activate muscle protein synthesis and there was a dose-response increase that leveled off with the ingestion of about 40g. Not the rest was wasted, but MPS was not further elevated by eating 60 or 70, and that MPS stayed elevated for roughly 4 hours. So the idea was it was better to eat 2 meals of 40 spread by 4 or more hours rather than 1 meal of 80 so you would get two periods of elevated MPS for the same amount of protein. This study says there is no 40g cap, and there is no drop after 4 hours.

 

[qbkilla]

So there are some conflating hypotheses going around based on past research. Many have heard that "the body can only absorb 30g of protein per meal" and that the rest was "wasted" That never really had any empirical data to start with and has been debunked. All protein is utilized by the body and so all are all calories. The other thought that did have empirical data was that roughly 20g was necessary to fully activate muscle protein synthesis and there was a dose-response increase that leveled off with the ingestion of about 40g. Not the rest was wasted, but MPS was not further elevated by eating 60 or 70, and that MPS stayed elevated for roughly 4 hours. So the idea was it was better to eat 2 meals of 40 spread by 4 or more hours rather than 1 meal of 80 so you would get two periods of elevated MPS for the same amount of protein. This study says there is no 40g cap, and there is no drop after 4 hours.

Are they still saying there is a minimum? I know the eaas I use from dymatize, about 10g total protein. But I assume 10g of eaa has a different effect on mps than 10g of protein from whey or chicken.

 

[Skins]

My 2 cents:

… (without reading the study’s Background, variable group parameters, etc..)

from my experience and perspectives, there’s a lot of variables that can contribute to this study, and (I) would be dubious of any “findings” of this research study:

Firstly: what protein type post workout… (which leads to the 2nd question, but more prevalent)

Secondly: who funded this project


Gut bioavailability is king: if you’re fasted for 20 hours, workout then consume EAAs, followed by a very fine Whey Isolate, followed by some green yogurt, followed by…

You get the picture.

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

My 2 cents:

… (without reading the study’s Background, variable group parameters, etc..)

from my experience and perspectives, there’s a lot of variables that can contribute to this study, and (I) would be dubious of any “findings” of this research study:

Firstly: what protein type post workout… (which leads to the 2nd question, but more prevalent)

Secondly: who funded this project


Gut bioavailability is king: if you’re fasted for 20 hours, workout then consume EAAs, followed by a very fine Whey Isolate, followed by some green yogurt, followed by…

You get the picture.

they address part of your question

“In the present study, milk protein was applied because it is the food item with the largest contribution to daily protein intake in the Western world.42 Because milk protein consists of 20% rapid digestible whey protein and 80% slowly digestible casein protein, it could be speculated that a more prolonged anabolic response to protein ingestion is unique to slowly digestible proteins. More rapidly digestible proteins may be disproportionally oxidized and, as such, may result in less amino acids being available for de novo protein synthesis.3 However, previous dose-response studies that administered rapidly digestible protein observed that postprandial amino acid oxidation is actually very limited.18,19 Moreover, we observed no differences in muscle protein synthesis rates following the ingestion of relatively large doses of whey and casein protein,43 implying that more rapidly digestible proteins do not result in disproportional (high) amino acid oxidation rates. Collectively, these data indicate that the metabolic responses observed in the present study are unlikely to be restricted to more slowly digestible proteins and are generalizable to other proteins despite different digestion kinetics.”