The anabolic response to protein ingestion during postexercise recovery has no upper limit in magnitude and duration in vivo in humans

[qbkilla]

There have been studies showing that taking a control group with isocaloric diet….vs the test group, who ate in a caloric surplus, in which the caloric surplus came solely from adding excess protein.

The result was more lean body mass and little to no fat gain.

idk if people still believe this, but the old myth was “excess protein will be stored as fat”

It’s damn near impossible for your body to convert protein to fat. You would have to be in an excess of protein to first convert protein to glucose via gluconeogenesis, then you would have to be in excess of glucose which would then be converted to fat via hepatic lipogenesis.

Both of these steps are very metabolically energy demanding.


What actually happens is that the excess fat and carbs from over eating is stored.

It would take a study of a smaller individual like a 130lb woman eating 2,500-3,000 calories of whey, tuna, 99% fat free meat, to see where the threshold is of all those steps. So 650g protein would do the trick.

The gut could never survive that lol.

So in theory what would happen if a 130lb person ate bw x 20 ( good size surplus)...2600 in nothing but protein?

They should gain weight very fast. Would it be pure muscle or muscle and fat? Or would they not gain as much weight if the same 2600 was isocalotic?

Assume this person has other things dialed in (intense training, AAS and gh, rest sleep etc).

 

[buck]

I did my best growing on 1.5g/pound or slightly more. I know some Soviet studies i saw 35 years ago showed their athletes could eat 3+ grams and still be in a negative nitrogen balance.

 

[marssel]

Link is full Text

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666379123005402

I did feel that this was warranted to be a stand-alone post simply because this is new, and a rather novel finding disproving the long-held belief that there are caps on maximizing MPS, and could generate some good discussion. Mods, please remove if you feel this is more appropriate as a comment elsewhere.

Abstract Summary

The belief that the anabolic response to feeding during postexercise recovery is transient and has an upper limit and that excess amino acids are being oxidized lacks scientific proof. Using a comprehensive quadruple isotope tracer feeding-infusion approach, we show that the ingestion of 100 g protein results in a greater and more prolonged (>12 h) anabolic response when compared to the ingestion of 25 g protein. We demonstrate a dose-response increase in dietary-protein-derived plasma amino acid availability and subsequent incorporation into muscle protein. Ingestion of a large bolus of protein further increases whole-body protein net balance, mixed-muscle, myofibrillar, muscle connective, and plasma protein synthesis rates. Protein ingestion has a negligible impact on whole-body protein breakdown rates or amino acid oxidation rates. These findings demonstrate that the magnitude and duration of the anabolic response to protein ingestion is not restricted and has previously been underestimated in vivo in humans.

Good post for most of us I’d say we knew this anecdotally as we laugh when you hear the influencers say you can only digest and use 30 gms of protein at a time. Another great post brother.

 

[Eguz22]

There have been studies showing that taking a control group with isocaloric diet….vs the test group, who ate in a caloric surplus, in which the caloric surplus came solely from adding excess protein.

The result was more lean body mass and little to no fat gain.

idk if people still believe this, but the old myth was “excess protein will be stored as fat”

I think we've come to the crux of the matter, so the conclusion would be that if we have to increase our calories for growth, we choose protein first, we usually keep the protein and increase the carbs and/or fats. Likewise, when we are in a cut we always increase protein.

In short, eat as much protein as your digestive system can handle and your wallet can afford.

 

[IntenseVolume]

I think we've come to the crux of the matter, so the conclusion would be that if we have to increase our calories for growth, we choose protein first, we usually keep the protein and increase the carbs and/or fats. Likewise, when we are in a cut we always increase protein.

In short, eat as much protein as your digestive system can handle and your wallet can afford.

Well excess calories of any kind can be stored as fat. It’s just not as easy for your body to store carbs and protein as fat as it is for fat. It’s not as easy for your body to protein as fat as it is for carbohydrates.
Protein is also not a good energy source.
You’re only going to add so much lean tissue in a certain amount of time no matter what you do.

 

[qbkilla]

So in theory what would happen if a 130lb person ate bw x 20 ( good size surplus)...2600 in nothing but protein?

They should gain weight very fast. Would it be pure muscle or muscle and fat? Or would they not gain as much weight if the same 2600 was isocalotic?

Assume this person has other things dialed in (intense training, AAS and gh, rest sleep etc).

Another interesting question if anyone wants to guess....

What if someone was dieting say 3k calories isocaloric. Then had a high/cheat/refeed day nothing but lean protein? Maybe some veggies, low calorie sauces to make it palatable. What effects would this have? People have been using low protein high carb refeeds forever, but never heard of someone expiramenting and having a high day that was just basically protein. Obviously wouldn't serve the purposes of a traditional refeed (glycogen, leptin, energy), but could have other affects if your depleted, body stressed from diet, high cortisol, catabolic, now hit the body with a huge surplus but a bolus of protein.

 

[Oldwhitedude]

I think we've come to the crux of the matter, so the conclusion would be that if we have to increase our calories for growth, we choose protein first, we usually keep the protein and increase the carbs and/or fats. Likewise, when we are in a cut we always increase protein.

In short, eat as much protein as your digestive system can handle and your wallet can afford.

I agree, to a point.

Definitely agree that protein should be high but when we introduce other macros into the discussion I think we have to be careful not to over simplify.

I think bodybuilders can fall into the trap of focusing so much on protein they miss out on both healthy fats and enough nutrient dense vegetables. Both things which will improve digestion.

I do agree that maximizing protein is the play but concurrency increasing healthy fats will almost certainly improve digestion, health and fullness/pump too.

 

[Hyperemia]

So in theory what would happen if a 130lb person ate bw x 20 ( good size surplus)...2600 in nothing but protein?

They should gain weight very fast. Would it be pure muscle or muscle and fat? Or would they not gain as much weight if the same 2600 was isocalotic?

Assume this person has other things dialed in (intense training, AAS and gh, rest sleep etc).

Another interesting question if anyone wants to guess....

What if someone was dieting say 3k calories isocaloric. Then had a high/cheat/refeed day nothing but lean protein? Maybe some veggies, low calorie sauces to make it palatable. What effects would this have? People have been using low protein high carb refeeds forever, but never heard of someone expiramenting and having a high day that was just basically protein. Obviously wouldn't serve the purposes of a traditional refeed (glycogen, leptin, energy), but could have other affects if your depleted, body stressed from diet, high cortisol, catabolic, now hit the body with a huge surplus but a bolus of protein.

Oh for fuck’s sake. You just can’t leave a good topic alone, you have to try to steer it off course and make it all about you and your ridiculous overthinking.

What if I ate a millions grams of protein, what would happen then? Hopefully it’ll lead to you just fucking off and getting a clue, though I doubt that last part would happen.

 

[qbkilla]

Oh for fuck’s sake. You just can’t leave a good topic alone, you have to try to steer it off course and make it all about you and your ridiculous overthinking.

What if I ate a millions grams of protein, what would happen then? Hopefully it’ll lead to you just fucking off and getting a clue, though I doubt that last part would happen.

Good god, a question about protein on an Internet thread about protein made you that mad? Tomorrow will be a better day I promise

 

[Oldwhitedude]

Good god, a question about protein on an Internet thread about protein made you that mad? Tomorrow will be a better day I promise

Banter.

 

[IntenseVolume]

Another interesting question if anyone wants to guess....

What if someone was dieting say 3k calories isocaloric. Then had a high/cheat/refeed day nothing but lean protein? Maybe some veggies, low calorie sauces to make it palatable. What effects would this have? People have been using low protein high carb refeeds forever, but never heard of someone expiramenting and having a high day that was just basically protein. Obviously wouldn't serve the purposes of a traditional refeed (glycogen, leptin, energy), but could have other affects if your depleted, body stressed from diet, high cortisol, catabolic, now hit the body with a huge surplus but a bolus of protein.

That would literally defeat the purpose of a refeed day.
People have eaten nothing but lean protein look up rabbit starvation or protein poisoning. The body can’t just live off of protein alone even just protein and trace fats.

 

[Eguz22]

That would literally defeat the purpose of a refeed day.
People have eaten nothing but lean protein look up rabbit starvation or protein poisoning. The body can’t just live off of protein alone even just protein and trace fats.

I don't think humans are like rabbits, I mean, tons of athletes, especially in bikinis, live on protein and vegetables for months.

 

[IntenseVolume]

I don't think humans are like rabbits, I mean, tons of athletes, especially in bikinis, live on protein and vegetables for months.

Rabbit starvation is term given to humans who consumed nothing but rabbit meat. Look it up. It’s also called protein poisoning.
Rabbits are extremely lean protein. It can happen with any lean protein source.
Can take anywhere from days to months depending on the individual.

 

[juggy38]

Rabbit starvation is term given to humans who consumed nothing but rabbit meat. Look it up. It’s also called protein poisoning.
Rabbits are extremely lean protein. It can happen with any lean protein source.
Can take anywhere from days to months depending on the individual.

This is why I wrap my squirrel in bacon. So i don’t die.

JK. Squirrel and rabbit with homemade dumplings are both amazing

 

[Eguz22]

Rabbit starvation is term given to humans who consumed nothing but rabbit meat. Look it up. It’s also called protein poisoning.
Rabbits are extremely lean protein. It can happen with any lean protein source.
Can take anywhere from days to months depending on the individual.

I've heard about these stories but we don't see athletes dying despite months of dieting where they consume little or no fats and carbs. Maybe people are saved because they eat vegetables, egg whites, some protein powders and white meat? They maybe also supplement with fish oil capsules.

Rabbit is much leaner than chicken? So why isn't it a more common meat among us? Could it be that rabbit has some particularity that makes it so toxic?

 

[danieltx]

Rabbit starvation is term given to humans who consumed nothing but rabbit meat. Look it up. It’s also called protein poisoning.
Rabbits are extremely lean protein. It can happen with any lean protein source.
Can take anywhere from days to months depending on the individual.

I've heard about these stories but we don't see athletes dying despite months of dieting where they consume little or no fats and carbs. Maybe people are saved because they eat vegetables, egg whites, some protein powders and white meat? They maybe also supplement with fish oil capsules.

Rabbit is much leaner than chicken? So why isn't it a more common meat among us? Could it be that rabbit has some particularity that makes it so toxic?

It could happen to a human with any extremely lean protein source - egg whites, whey protein, white fish, etc. The reason you don't hear of it outside of survival tales is it typically takes months to harm the body and no bodybuilder is staying on that extreme of a contest diet for that long. Even if they push for 2-3 months, they likely still have fish oil and a cheat meal here or there aiding them.

Rabbit meat isn't common but whole rabbits can be found at specialty grocery stores in the US.

 

[stackdizzy]

Great Article and I just started 100 grams(protein powder) post yesterday

 

[qbkilla]

That would literally defeat the purpose of a refeed day.
People have eaten nothing but lean protein look up rabbit starvation or protein poisoning. The body can’t just live off of protein alone even just protein and trace fats.

This may be true but I was just referring to a refeed day, not continuous psmf long term. Years ago it was said that a high carb refeed would speed the metabolism back up after prolonged dieting, but seems like now days the consensus is that doesn't happen, it only provides a physiological benefit and all those carbs can undo the weekly defecit and should be factored in. Basically they do not "bump up the metabolism so they get burnt right off."

 

[Doitagain]

I've heard about these stories but we don't see athletes dying despite months of dieting where they consume little or no fats and carbs. Maybe people are saved because they eat vegetables, egg whites, some protein powders and white meat? They maybe also supplement with fish oil capsules.

Rabbit is much leaner than chicken? So why isn't it a more common meat among us? Could it be that rabbit has some particularity that makes it so toxic?

Like with EAA's, there're Essential Fatty Acids your body can't synthesize on its own. Without them you can't last that much.

 

[Oldwhitedude]

This may be true but I was just referring to a refeed day, not continuous psmf long term. Years ago it was said that a high carb refeed would speed the metabolism back up after prolonged dieting, but seems like now days the consensus is that doesn't happen, it only provides a physiological benefit and all those carbs can undo the weekly defecit and should be factored in. Basically they do not "bump up the metabolism so they get burnt right off."

You'd make an absolutely shredded corpse.

Y'know, silver lining and all that.