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Thoughts on this ( gear related )

Matsuo Munefusa

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There is no right or wrong way , i just want to share a diferent perspective
Completely disagree, my friend, with respect. There is a wrong way and crushing estrogen is the wrong way.

Tren is also a neurotoxin and is also the wrong way imo

But, I could see somebody with different goals thinking differently, maybe they "want it" more than I do lol
 

USMuscle9403

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Thanks for posting this. I've always found it interesting how other countries approach AAS use and the general 'culture' of users and their ideologies.
 

Elvia1023

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In my experience Euro guys just take the same stuff. I am not counting the UK as that is just like the US and most just take high doses of everything. Perhaps things were very different 20 years ago but in the last decade from my experience most take the same sort of cycles. Yes certain people do experiments with high deca, high eq, high tren and mod/low or even no test but it's not done on a geographical basis. I know some French, Swiss and Polish bodybuilders for example and they all take the same sort of things. I saw Ruhl was mentioned and I know someone who was told by a top source (come from Ruhl himself) that he took massive doses of test. Many don't like high test but plenty still use it at around 500-1000mg even if they don't rate it and use high doses of other aids. Most Euro guys I have asked take very high doses of test when growing and even in prep.
 

N.L....M.....

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In my experience Euro guys just take the same stuff. I am not counting the UK as that is just like the US and most just take high doses of everything. Perhaps things were very different 20 years ago but in the last decade from my experience most take the same sort of cycles. Yes certain people do experiments with high deca, high eq, high tren and mod/low or even no test but it's not done on a geographical basis. I know some French, Swiss and Polish bodybuilders for example and they all take the same sort of things. I saw Ruhl was mentioned and I know someone who was told by a top source (come from Ruhl himself) that he took massive doses of test. Many don't like high test but plenty still use it at around 500-1000mg even if they don't rate it and use high doses of other aids. Most Euro guys I have asked take very high doses of test when growing and even in prep.
I’m a fan of high test and test I’m general so I’m biased. Why do you think so many guys on the internet atleast are against higher doses of test? Do you think someone can become a monster or a freak without high test?
 

Elvia1023

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I’m a fan of high test and test I’m general so I’m biased. Why do you think so many guys on the internet atleast are against higher doses of test? Do you think someone can become a monster or a freak without high test?
They could be a monster without any 1 compound. Any 1 compound is not essential. Although I would recommend test in every plan even if that's just a small dose. For someone wanting to be huge I think the dose should be pushed up but it never needs to be high. 500mg test is plenty for most people and there are so many others aids (deca, dbol, adrol, eq, primo etc) they can add in.

I don't think internet guys are against higher test. It's probably 50/50 and I think that's mainly due to it's actual side effects when dosed high. I tend not to like high test because I have tried it and it just meant more side effects for me. Most guys I know love high test. Now on the internet you get guys post their findings so others just follow what they write and may not even try for themselves. Lot's of guys equate high test with more bloat and many want to stay lean all year so they used that info and ran with it. I am sure you have seen all the low test and high tren threads for example. Then a certain someone really pushed the high tren cycles and that's obviously going to create insane gains (and side effects) for many so they ran with that for awhile.

Most of the big guys I know use high doses of test. Most of the guys who go on about bloat etc are usually on the smaller side. Now that doesn't mean there aren't loads of freaks out there who hate test and use barely any of it. So it's just a combo of it's actual side effects coupled with guys wanting to reinvent the wheel and try all different ratios and compounds and people just follow/copy. Where I grew up everyone was on sust and deca that used aas. Test was the bread and butter of all cycles.
 

N.L....M.....

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They could be a monster without any 1 compound. Any 1 compound is not essential. Although I would recommend test in every plan even if that's just a small dose. For someone wanting to be huge I think the dose should be pushed up but it never needs to be high. 500mg test is plenty for most people and there are so many others aids (deca, dbol, adrol, eq, primo etc) they can add in.

I don't think internet guys are against higher test. It's probably 50/50 and I think that's mainly due to it's actual side effects when dosed high. I tend not to like high test because I have tried it and it just meant more side effects for me. Most guys I know love high test. Now on the internet you get guys post their findings so others just follow what they write and may not even try for themselves. Lot's of guys equate high test with more bloat and many want to stay lean all year so they used that info and ran with it. I am sure you have seen all the low test and high tren threads for example. Then a certain someone really pushed the high tren cycles and that's obviously going to create insane gains (and side effects) for many so they ran with that for awhile.

Most of the big guys I know use high doses of test. Most of the guys who go on about bloat etc are usually on the smaller side. Now that doesn't mean there aren't loads of freaks out there who hate test and use barely any of it. So it's just a combo of it's actual side effects coupled with guys wanting to reinvent the wheel and try all different ratios and compounds and people just follow/copy. Where I grew up everyone was on sust and deca that used aas. Test was the bread and butter of all cycles.
I appreciate you taking the time to write the thought out reply.
When I was younger it was the same with guys I was around high test, deca at half the test and dbol. Test was always 2x any other injectable
 

Reno911

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It was an interesting read and he seems to mention "health" a few times. No way is anyone going to have a healthy lipid profile while using Tren, Winstrol, Anavar, and 2.5mg of Letro daily. Most people would be lucky to have an HDL of 6 on those compounds combined.
 

hawkmoon

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I always like to read different perspectives, as there are many and they change over time.

This guy lost me when he called anavar androgenic and of course the estrogen is evil thing...
 

luki7788

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This very old school is covered in this article. I have not seen anyone apply such practices and I am from Europe, specifically from Poland, and no one uses a low test here. Various trends were known, e.g. when gh15 was triumphant then many people tried, for example, low test and high trenbolone but most still use basic cycles.
As for the test, I do not know anyone from a super heavyweight who used less than 1.2-1.5 g. Average is 1.5g, guys who weigh 290+ pounds for offseason usually use 1.5-2g of test a week, and real freaks of 320+ pounds at 2.5-3.5g. And I know a lot of bodybuilders also from abroad, and really no one who is large in size does low test
 

USMuscle9403

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Well, the article is from the 90s, so I'm assuming the culture and cycle theory has changed for them, as it has for the US. European guys that have been around a while, have you seen ideas change over the years? If so, how?

The idea of short duration, short ester cycles does intrigue me, however. For a guy like me, who doesn't want to be a huge bodybuilder but still wants to experiment with a new compound here and there.
 

luki7788

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Well, the article is from the 90s, so I'm assuming the culture and cycle theory has changed for them, as it has for the US. European guys that have been around a while, have you seen ideas change over the years? If so, how?

The idea of short duration, short ester cycles does intrigue me, however. For a guy like me, who doesn't want to be a huge bodybuilder but still wants to experiment with a new compound here and there.
If you don't want to be a great bodybuilder, just play toxic drugs and experiment? there are people who prefer short esters and 7-8 week cycles, but then it looks like this

base that is on all the time
test 1g + 800mg EQ

7-8 week cycle (the above base is still here)
1-8 test prop 150mg ed
1-8 tren ace 100mg ed
1-6 androl 150mg ed

and we go back for 3-5 weeks to the "base" and then cycle again, any approach will work
 

jeroendebleser

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Thank you madg for posting this! I've been interested in the content that madg posts. I asked him if he would post his first hand account of what he's done as a European bodybuilder and the mindset that went along with it. Agree or disagree, please keep responses respectful. This is the kind of sharing that makes PM the top board out there!!

Phidias if you're out there, I/we would love to hear your thoughts and experiences as well!
Have you heard from Phidias in the last months (or maybe years already)? He was always a great contributor and an overall nice guy, it's a shame he went missing. Hope he's ok.
 

Bio

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Unfortunately he hasn't been on since March 2, 2019. I hope he's ok.
 

Bio

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That is over a year wow
A year and 8 months, so closer to 2 years. I'll see if Big A knows anything.

Elvia did you guys keep in touch off the board?
 

Sides

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As others have said, the 2.5mg letrozole per day while on no test just strikes me as bizarre, although to be fair, in the 90's and early 2000's we did view estrogen as the bad guy, quite wrongfully considering all it's benefits.

I took 2.5mg letrozole once, on the advice of my urologist/fertility doctor, when I was taking 300mg test and high doses of HCG. It crushed me for over a week and made me completely miserable. I would never consider doing that again. Even on 600mg test, just a quarter tab of letrozole decreases my libido the next couple of days.
 

maldorf

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Unfortunately he hasn't been on since March 2, 2019. I hope he's ok.
Yeah, I asked about him late 2019 but nobody replied. I miss him on here. He has a lot of good experience and knowledge in bodybuilding, as well as being a great guy.
 

yomstf

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First of all thank you Madg for share the info, we can agree or disagree but for sure open a debate.

I am from EU, nowaday everyone can enter on a forum or looking for info online, even if your english is awful we have tools like google translator. So right now globalization makes that every country takes a similar approach but years ago was different.

I'm not old (I think so) but I started on a "hardcore" gym 12 years ago. I was a teenager then but people in that gym was friendly and supportive. They talk abut what they used to do. Keep in mind that I am not talking about national competitors just "common" gym goers and some amateur bodybuilder.

In my country was kind of easy to buy on a pharmacy primobolan, deca, proviron, winstrol and sometimes test (testoviron). So people do a lot of deca, winstrol and primo. Proviron here and there and test sometimes but Deca, winstrol and primo all three together or two of them was the basic. Because that was easy to find and because AI were expensive and high dose of test without AI tends to bloat.

Now people do the same that you can see in any forum, reddit and whatever.
 

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