TRT gurus promoting High E2

[gotgame]

Not really related to this thread. I dont think i know of the doctors mentioned in the last few posts but id bet a protein shake that with 95% + confidence those doctors are either a DO, chiropractor, went to a foreign medical school or have a doctorate like phd in something. Sure i could be wrong but its an ongoing joke among physicians who went to both medical school and residency in the USA that when a doctor refers to themself as Dr. XYZ in a professional capacity on like a website, marketing, a professional talk or lecture etc that the more likely they are to call themselves DR the less likely it is they they are a USA trained allopathic physician who went to medical school here. Not speaking poorly about anyone else...its just been my experience and others observations that often pans out to correct.


Allopathic Physicians who train in the USA in general, ofcourse not all the time... would most commonly have there names lised as say XYZ MD. However We would ofcourse say Dr XYZ when introducing ourselfs to patients.


Dont want to turn this into an MD vs everyone else debate or questioning anyones knowledge...but something for you to look at next time someone calls themselfs Dr so n so... see if its holds true.

 

[thethinker48]

Not really related to this thread. I dont think i know of the doctors mentioned in the last few posts but id bet a protein shake that with 95% + confidence those doctors are either a DO, chiropractor, went to a foreign medical school or have a doctorate like phd in something. Sure i could be wrong but its an ongoing joke among physicians who went to both medical school and residency in the USA that when a doctor refers to themself as Dr. XYZ in a professional capacity on like a website, marketing, a professional talk or lecture etc that the more likely they are to call themselves DR the less likely it is they they are a USA trained allopathic physician who went to medical school here. Not speaking poorly about anyone else...its just been my experience and others observations that often pans out to correct.


Allopathic Physicians who train in the USA in general, ofcourse not all the time... would most commonly have there names lised as say XYZ MD. However We would ofcourse say Dr XYZ when introducing ourselfs to patients.


Dont want to turn this into an MD vs everyone else debate or questioning anyones knowledge...but something for you to look at next time someone calls themselfs Dr so n so... see if its holds true.

Why you gotta throw shade at DO's bro

Kind of reminds of this lady I met at work who introduced herself as Dr. X. I asked her what she specialized in, she said naturopathy.

I'm like

 

[gotgame]

Why you gotta throw shade at DO's bro

Kind of reminds of this lady I met at work who introduced herself as Dr. X. I asked her what she specialized in, she said naturopathy.

I'm like

haha ex wife was a DO....maybe it was unintentional lol. still love her and always will.

Joking aside, i have much respect for anyone who has real knowledge and is open to learning more. I dont care about there credentials. There have been guys on these boards who have more knowledge then guys with 3 phds.

Ahhh speaking of nonsense... there is this thing now that nurses after so many years of just doing there job... i wanna say its like 20 years and taking some courses are gettting certified as Doctors of nursing... DNP (nooo not the fat burning kind lol). Not to be a complete dick to anyone one who is a nurse on this board...but sorry.. im not calling a nurse a doctor. Stop confusing patient with your long white coats and calling everyone doctor...

Physicians in many hospitals had to stop wearing there white coats and go to professional attire to try to separate themselves from everyone and there mother wearing a long white coat these days. It used to be long white coat= dr. short white coat=student. confusing times lol

 

[Deleted member 106824]

ITT will rise regardless of exogenous testosterone being present, but you wont be able to test this very easily via bloods. This is why I think Dr Dean is stating to come off Test Enan for example, then wait 5+ weeks before starting SERM treatment. I assume this is to treat testicular dysfunction.

I think that can be done whilst still on TE, but you wont know if the testis are online or not (primary hypogonadism) as you cannot test ITT easily. A blood test on TT will still show the TE present during these 5+ weeks where androgen levels will decline.

This is why its important to use HCG throughout your AAS cycle or TRT IMO. Its not only used for cosmetic reasons. Life can change you may want your fertility back or to stop TRT.

A good indicator of testis function will be testicular size and seminal volume. If the testis are not "online" (primary hypogonadism) then no amount of SERMs is going to get your TT and FT back.

I can see what Dr Dean is stating to wait, I hope I have explained why above, at least thats what I think he means.

What you're saying makes sense to me. You want the testes "activated" and to have a response to LH and this can be done with HCG. What I don't understand is why he is so adamant that starting HCG earlier than 5 weeks is a problem. He keeps going back to that as being the biggest issue with PCT and that people don't wait long enough...basically saying that all exogenous testosterone has to clear before beginning PCT.

Now I can understand perhaps why exogenous test enanthate has to clear before beginning the SERMs, but I don't see why you can't be using HCG prior to that 5 weeks, and I've never heard a single doctor recommend waiting that long to start HCG. I get he's saying even the HCG induced spike in test can suppress LH/FSH production but again I've never heard doctors recommend waiting that long. Both Dr. O'Conno

haha ex wife was a DO....maybe it was unintentional lol. still love her and always will.

Joking aside, i have much respect for anyone who has real knowledge and is open to learning more. I dont care about there credentials. There have been guys on these boards who have more knowledge then guys with 3 phds.

Ahhh speaking of nonsense... there is this thing now that nurses after so many years of just doing there job... i wanna say its like 20 years and taking some courses are gettting certified as Doctors of nursing... DNP (nooo not the fat burning kind lol). Not to be a complete dick to anyone one who is a nurse on this board...but sorry.. im not calling a nurse a doctor. Stop confusing patient with your long white coats and calling everyone doctor...

Physicians in many hospitals had to stop wearing there white coats and go to professional attire to try to separate themselves from everyone and there mother wearing a long white coat these days. It used to be long white coat= dr. short white coat=student. confusing times lol

Yea man. Nurse anesthetists are doctors now too (most programs have shifted from masters to being doctorate programs), PT programs are now doctorate rather than masters, etc.

And I agree with the tendency you notice. If you're referring to the YouTube video I posted Dr. Dean St Marts is a PhD in organic chemistry.

Do you agree with his notion that you must wait until all exogenous hormones are cleared from your system before starting even HCG (so in the case of test enanthate ~5 weeks)?

 

[thethinker48]

haha ex wife was a DO....maybe it was unintentional lol. still love her and always will.

Joking aside, i have much respect for anyone who has real knowledge and is open to learning more. I dont care about there credentials. There have been guys on these boards who have more knowledge then guys with 3 phds.

Ahhh speaking of nonsense... there is this thing now that nurses after so many years of just doing there job... i wanna say its like 20 years and taking some courses are gettting certified as Doctors of nursing... DNP (nooo not the fat burning kind lol). Not to be a complete dick to anyone one who is a nurse on this board...but sorry.. im not calling a nurse a doctor. Stop confusing patient with your long white coats and calling everyone doctor...

Physicians in many hospitals had to stop wearing there white coats and go to professional attire to try to separate themselves from everyone and there mother wearing a long white coat these days. It used to be long white coat= dr. short white coat=student. confusing times lol

Mid level practitioners have had a surge, no doubt

I have friends who couldn't/didn't apply to medical school, and went to the PA, NP route, and now joke about "basically" being doctors. Unfortunately the training does not align with the hubris in some of these cases

And no doubts the barrier of entry for becoming a physician is very high, so I can see why people opt for this route instead

 

[gotgame]

What you're saying makes sense to me. You want the testes "activated" and to have a response to LH and this can be done with HCG. What I don't understand is why he is so adamant that starting HCG earlier than 5 weeks is a problem. He keeps going back to that as being the biggest issue with PCT and that people don't wait long enough...basically saying that all exogenous testosterone has to clear before beginning PCT.

Now I can understand perhaps why exogenous test enanthate has to clear before beginning the SERMs, but I don't see why you can't be using HCG prior to that 5 weeks, and I've never heard a single doctor recommend waiting that long to start HCG. I get he's saying even the HCG induced spike in test can suppress LH/FSH production but again I've never heard doctors recommend waiting that long. Both Dr. O'Conno


Yea man. Nurse anesthetists are doctors now too (most programs have shifted from masters to being doctorate programs), PT programs are now doctorate rather than masters, etc.

And I agree with the tendency you notice. If you're referring to the YouTube video I posted Dr. Dean St Marts is a PhD in organic chemistry.

Do you agree with his notion that you must wait until all exogenous hormones are cleared from your system before starting even HCG (so in the case of test enanthate ~5 weeks)?

no

 

[Biggerp73]

Man I really had not heard the recommendation to wait 5+ weeks to start even HCG before. I've had several medical doctors, including the two well know guys in this area (Dr. O'Connor and Dr. McClain) recommend starting HCG before even coming off, and then starting bigger doses of it right when you do finally come off. Total contradiction with what Dr. Dean St Mart is saying here.

Dean Mart is clearly wrong. HCG on cycle and/or as you are still coming off, is the single best thing you can do.

 

[Swifto]

What you're saying makes sense to me. You want the testes "activated" and to have a response to LH and this can be done with HCG. What I don't understand is why he is so adamant that starting HCG earlier than 5 weeks is a problem. He keeps going back to that as being the biggest issue with PCT and that people don't wait long enough...basically saying that all exogenous testosterone has to clear before beginning PCT.

Now I can understand perhaps why exogenous test enanthate has to clear before beginning the SERMs, but I don't see why you can't be using HCG prior to that 5 weeks, and I've never heard a single doctor recommend waiting that long to start HCG. I get he's saying even the HCG induced spike in test can suppress LH/FSH production but again I've never heard doctors recommend waiting that long. Both Dr. O'Conno


Yea man. Nurse anesthetists are doctors now too (most programs have shifted from masters to being doctorate programs), PT programs are now doctorate rather than masters, etc.

And I agree with the tendency you notice. If you're referring to the YouTube video I posted Dr. Dean St Marts is a PhD in organic chemistry.

Do you agree with his notion that you must wait until all exogenous hormones are cleared from your system before starting even HCG (so in the case of test enanthate ~5 weeks)?

He advises getting bloods done after HCG treatment to test endogenous testosterone has increased from the HCG treatment. That way you know 100% the testis are "online" and producing natural hormones. If this was done before 5 weeks, then some exogenous testosterone would still be active and not give an accurate reading.

 

[KillerStack]

I can't find it now, but a while back I looked at some HCG studies while reading this thread and I think one study said after some time on HCG testicle size actually decreased. I thought that was curious. I think the HCG was "working" but size decreased. Anyone remember seeing this?

 

[Swifto]

Has anyone from here been debating with Dr. Dean about the above HCG usage, as its currently on his IG stories? And its not me!

He states HCG has no use in an AAS cycle which I dont agree with. It prevents testicular dysfunction. You can prevent testicular dysfunction on an AAS cycle or TRT, it doesn't matter IMO. On TRT its used to maintain function, size and fertility. On AAS its used for the same reason.

Yes, the doses used on cycle of exogenous testosterone are higher and various AAS are used, when compared to TRT doses, but its mechanism of action of treating the testis directly doesn't change via being an LH mimetic.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Dean Mart is clearly wrong. HCG on cycle and/or as you are still coming off, is the single best thing you can do.

no

Thanks. This guy is making numerous videos and posts on how dead wrong everyone is about PCT, yet it seems like the majority of actual doctors who know their stuff in this area disagree with him.

He advises getting bloods done after HCG treatment to test endogenous testosterone has increased from the HCG treatment. That way you know 100% the testis are "online" and producing natural hormones. If this was done before 5 weeks, then some exogenous testosterone would still be active and not give an accurate reading.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from reading his IG posts and watching his YT video he seems pretty adamant about taking nothing (*no HCG*, no SERMs) for ~5 weeks after your last shot, then getting bloods to see where you're at, then starting SERMs.

Where are you seeing he advises HCG treatment, as in where in the timing of all of this protocol?

Has anyone from here been debating with Dr. Dean about the above HCG usage, as its currently on his IG stories? And its not me!

He states HCG has no use in an AAS cycle which I dont agree with. It prevents testicular dysfunction. You can prevent testicular dysfunction on an AAS cycle or TRT, it doesn't matter IMO. On TRT its used to maintain function, size and fertility. On AAS its used for the same reason.

Yes, the doses used on cycle of exogenous testosterone are higher and various AAS are used, when compared to TRT doses, but its mechanism of action of treating the testis directly doesn't change via being an LH mimetic.

lol I'll have to check his stories but not me either.

And yes I agree with what you said above...it doesn't make sense that he thinks it's fine to use during TRT but not on a cycle. Again this guy seems to have a lot of hubris in this area but I'm seeing contradictions.

 

[Swifto]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from reading his IG posts and watching his YT video he seems pretty adamant about taking nothing (*no HCG*, no SERMs) for ~5 weeks after your last shot, then getting bloods to see where you're at, then starting SERMs.

Where are you seeing he advises HCG treatment, as in where in the timing of all of this protocol?

His video on Flaws of Modern PCT. Please watch it.

Wait 5 weeks, get BW, start HCG treatment + AI until endogenous T is at 8.5nmol/L (advises from 2-6 weeks via BW), then start SERM treatment, get BW. Thats his advice.

Endogenous LH can rise even in the presence of HCG + SERM, so why wait 5 weeks for that?

Dr. Dean is a smart man and I can see why he does things, but I dont agree with all of it.

 

[Chembody]

Trt with proviron is what I do anyones thoughts on that?

 

[Deleted member 106824]

His video on Flaws of Modern PCT. Please watch it.

Wait 5 weeks, get BW, start HCG treatment + AI until endogenous T is at 8.5nmol/L (advises from 2-6 weeks via BW), then start SERM treatment, get BW. Thats his advice.

Endogenous LH can rise even in the presence of HCG + SERM, so why wait 5 weeks for that?

Dr. Dean is a smart man and I can see why he does things, but I dont agree with all of it.

I'm the one who posted that video here lol. I must have misinterpreted what you were saying above, along with forgetting part of his protocol. But yes, regardless, he recommends doing nothing at all for 5 weeks and states taking anything too soon is not only a waste but detrimental. Conversely, you, gotgame, and just about every medical doctor I've discussed this with seems to feel HCG earlier than that and even before you come off is completely fine and even recommended. I think I'll go with that, but do understand waiting on the SERMS.

 

[Biggerp73]

Yeah letting your testes die for any period of time isn't smart. The longer they are shutdown the more you risk permanent decreases in size, libido, testosterone, etc. Small doses on cycle keep them full and healthy (and for many of us keep our libido running) and also make sure they are ready for normal, natural usage the moment androgens clear the system. Sure, one could wait until androgens clear and them jump start the tested with a large dose, but it's much more advisable to keep them running the whole time with smaller doses, for the reasons mentioned above, as well as to prevent potential desensitization from high doses as well.

 

[KillerStack]

Yeah letting your testes die for any period of time isn't smart. The longer they are shutdown the more you risk permanent decreases in size, libido, testosterone, etc. Small doses on cycle keep them full and healthy (and for many of us keep our libido running) and also make sure they are ready for normal, natural usage the moment androgens clear the system. Sure, one could wait until androgens clear and them jump start the tested with a large dose, but it's much more advisable to keep them running the whole time with smaller doses, for the reasons mentioned above, as well as to prevent poten tial desensitization from high doses as well.

You are probably right but I remember a rodent study where their testicles actually produced more test when they were older if they had been shut down when younger. Basically the testes didn't age as rapidly. Humans aren't lab rats but it was interesting nonetheless

Antioxidants wrt testicles is interesting too. I think taurine is supposed to protect them through antioxidant effects. Some herbal test boosters are thought by some to work through this mechanism.

 

[Joltan]

Yeah letting your testes die for any period of time isn't smart. The longer they are shutdown the more you risk permanent decreases in size, libido, testosterone, etc. Small doses on cycle keep them full and healthy (and for many of us keep our libido running) and also make sure they are ready for normal, natural usage the moment androgens clear the system. Sure, one could wait until androgens clear and them jump start the tested with a large dose, but it's much more advisable to keep them running the whole time with smaller doses, for the reasons mentioned above, as well as to prevent potential desensitization from high doses as well.

Can you share your HCG dosing schedule? I'm curious what amounts you require for desensitization and libido in particular.

 

[Biggerp73]

Can you share your HCG dosing schedule? I'm curious what amounts you require for desensitization and libido in particular.

I try follow the late Dr. Crisler's recommendations... 250-500iu 2-3x per week...