Your thoughts for the future of chemical enhancement

[J.DREDD]

I searched to see if this had been really discussed before, wasn’t able to find anything applicable, so I hope this isn’t wasting time and space.

What do you guys think the future of PEDs is as it pertains to new development?

It’s pretty well established testosterone is the start of it all, naturally produced, metabolites are understood, etc. Then very smart people started creating the synthetics and made more and more refined compounds which sought to isolate the anabolic component.

Obviously people started figuring out HGH, specific use of insulin, EPO, peptides, growth factors etc.

Now, and I know everyone rolls their eyes at SARMS lol, we have the SARM era. I personally think there may be some promise there in the future. I think the pharma companies have focused on low dose, orally bioavailable compounds and this has left us with what we have now.

There has always been talks of myostatin inhibition through peptides and now this Yk11 business, but aside from Belgian Blue Bulls looking bad ass, that kinda seems scary. Same with “gene doping”.

Clearly we have a solid grasp of the compounds which have been around for decades, and now seem better at side effect management (though some ancillaries have their own nasty sides). Futher, the basics (OF COURSE with brutally hard work, dedication, planning, and God given genetics) have created Gaspari, Haney, Yates, etc. so I would say what we have at our disposal is plenty effective.

All that said, what do you think the next level will be? Are there new primobolans and anavars out there waiting to be discovered, or is the future of PED/sports doping/strength sports something else entirely?

 

[Type-IIx]

I think an effective Myostatin inhibitor is the next iteration in chemical enhancement (Myostatin is a tremendous discovery, a truly pluripotent gene & pathway). I think gene doping is the grand (from some viewpoints, perhaps "dystopian") future in performance & physique enhancement. Sometimes, though, the most interesting & important contributions are the unexpected: an unintended consequence of some drug may be tremendously useful for us.

The SARMs era, we are definitely in. It's rather lame how they're proceeding with drug investigations though. They're using the outmoded Hershberger Assay and just exploring classes of drugs (e.g., qunolinone analogs, aryl propionamide analogs, bicyclic hydantion analogs, tetrahydro-quinoline analogs) that can activate the AR (hopefully specifically in skeletal muscle) but that lack the steroidal backbone of androgens. Well, they're not likely to dissociate androgenic & anabolic effects versus already existing attenuated androgens just by this method - especially when the assay they're using is so poor considering that the levator ani is the bulbocaverous - and so far their results have proven less efficacious than classic stanozolol.

 

[qbkilla]

I think it will shift away from aas (we will still use them because they work) but the next level is gene doping. Imo, nothing to back it up, stuff like this is being used in olympic level athletes because that is where the $$ is not bodybuilding. No idea if whatever they may be doing will be accessible to bodybuilders or gym rats or even cost effective. Again just a guess but I'd guess alot of the research is not meant to ever be public because it's considered cheating so that makes it less likely to see the light of day or be accessible to us commoners

Maybe if an ex Olympic athlete, coach, or scientist went rogue and exposed things or tried to market them to the public for profit?

 

[Cerberus777]

I think it will shift away from aas (we will still use them because they work) but the next level is gene doping. Imo, nothing to back it up, stuff like this is being used in olympic level athletes because that is where the $$ is not bodybuilding. No idea if whatever they may be doing will be accessible to bodybuilders or gym rats or even cost effective. Again just a guess but I'd guess alot of the research is not meant to ever be public because it's considered cheating so that makes it less likely to see the light of day or be accessible to us commoners

Maybe if an ex Olympic athlete, coach, or scientist went rogue and exposed things or tried to market them to the public for profit?

Right. Building muscle for appearance isn't a priority. Drugs that increase endurance and strength will find there way into the PED world. Like GW1516 and ITPP did.

 

[emeric delczeg]

I think an effective Myostatin inhibitor is the next iteration in chemical enhancement (Myostatin is a tremendous discovery, a truly pluripotent gene & pathway). I think gene doping is the grand (from some viewpoints, perhaps "dystopian") future in performance & physique enhancement. Sometimes, though, the most interesting & important contributions are the unexpected: an unintended consequence of some drug may be tremendously useful for us.

The SARMs era, we are definitely in. It's rather lame how they're proceeding with drug investigations though. They're using the outmoded Hershberger Assay and just exploring classes of drugs (e.g., qunolinone analogs, aryl propionamide analogs, bicyclic hydantion analogs, tetrahydro-quinoline analogs) that can activate the AR (hopefully specifically in skeletal muscle) but that lack the steroidal backbone of androgens. Well, they're not likely to dissociate androgenic & anabolic effects versus already existing attenuated androgens just by this method - especially when the assay they're using is so poor considering that the levator ani is the bulbocaverous - and so far their results have proven less efficacious than classic stanozolol.

This for longevity and health -Yamanaka Factors FGF (Fibroblast Growths factors) and miRNAs.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Since size is generally well accepted as attainable by almost everyone, I think true performance enhancements might be in the offing. Whether myostatin or SARM, I think if you were able to develop a skeletal muscle specific receptor SARM that was suicidal in nature like Aromasin where once attached, caused the AR gene expression but otherwise was inactivated, would be ideal.

I don't know what you all know regarding kinesiology and musculoskeletal leverage but attachments of tendons just a few millimeters further down the joint from the rotational axis yields massive increases in strength. Possibly a surgical procedure to adjust the insertions of those attachments. With the way they can arthroscopically rebuild entire knees and shoulders today, does not seem too far fetched. Especially with nanotechnology which I'm sorry to say, is coming. These tiny machines could rebuild entire joints in hours or less, heal up, and be on your way. To curl 75lbs, your biceps are contracting with the force of 500lbs just due to the relatively poor leverage of the forearm. Landing from 3 feet, your calves are absorbing 1000lbs. Imagine someone with a 36" leap with the same contractile force can now have a 6' vertical leap.

A different version of that could possibly use the neurology inside the muscle to greatly increase muscle fiber recruitment while still maintaining fine motor skills like threading a needle or trying a shoelace.

I see many applications of that tech. I don't think military because military is already almost entirely machines vs machines.

 

[J.DREDD]

I think an effective Myostatin inhibitor is the next iteration in chemical enhancement (Myostatin is a tremendous discovery, a truly pluripotent gene & pathway). I think gene doping is the grand (from some viewpoints, perhaps "dystopian") future in performance & physique enhancement. Sometimes, though, the most interesting & important contributions are the unexpected: an unintended consequence of some drug may be tremendously useful for us.

The SARMs era, we are definitely in. It's rather lame how they're proceeding with drug investigations though. They're using the outmoded Hershberger Assay and just exploring classes of drugs (e.g., qunolinone analogs, aryl propionamide analogs, bicyclic hydantion analogs, tetrahydro-quinoline analogs) that can activate the AR (hopefully specifically in skeletal muscle) but that lack the steroidal backbone of androgens. Well, they're not likely to dissociate androgenic & anabolic effects versus already existing attenuated androgens just by this method - especially when the assay they're using is so poor considering that the levator ani is the bulbocaverous - and so far their results have proven less efficacious than classic stanozolol.

I just wonder if myostatin inhibition is possible solely for skeletal muscle as opposed to systemic to where the heart would rapidly grow as well ?

 

[J.DREDD]

Since size is generally well accepted as attainable by almost everyone, I think true performance enhancements might be in the offing. Whether myostatin or SARM, I think if you were able to develop a skeletal muscle specific receptor SARM that was suicidal in nature like Aromasin where once attached, caused the AR gene expression but otherwise was inactivated, would be ideal.

I don't know what you all know regarding kinesiology and musculoskeletal leverage but attachments of tendons just a few millimeters further down the joint from the rotational axis yields massive increases in strength. Possibly a surgical procedure to adjust the insertions of those attachments. With the way they can arthroscopically rebuild entire knees and shoulders today, does not seem too far fetched. Especially with nanotechnology which I'm sorry to say, is coming. These tiny machines could rebuild entire joints in hours or less, heal up, and be on your way. To curl 75lbs, your biceps are contracting with the force of 500lbs just due to the relatively poor leverage of the forearm. Landing from 3 feet, your calves are absorbing 1000lbs. Imagine someone with a 36" leap with the same contractile force can now have a 6' vertical leap.

A different version of that could possibly use the neurology inside the muscle to greatly increase muscle fiber recruitment while still maintaining fine motor skills like threading a needle or trying a shoelace.

I see many applications of that tech. I don't think military because military is already almost entirely machines vs machines.

Very interesting, the meat head in me thinks hell yeah better bicep insertions lol, but absolutely the strength advantage of having a more mechanically advantageous insertion position would be tremendous!

I have to wonder if you’re familiar with, and if so, what you think of Doug Brignole’s work in regards to lever length/biomechanics/physics?

 

[Type-IIx]

I just wonder if myostatin inhibition is possible solely for skeletal muscle as opposed to systemic to where the heart would rapidly grow as well ?

Oh yes, Myostatin is expressed specifically within skeletal muscle and not smooth muscle. What you've seen that appears almost shocking (the Belgian Bleu) is a genetic lack of Myostatin (Mst null). Mere disruption of the gene in mice, cattle and dogs induces a dramatic increase in muscle mass due to BOTH hypertrophy & hyperplasia. It has so many actions on skeletal muscle regulation it is profound.

 

[J.DREDD]

Wow, well, then by all means a very interesting avenue!

 

[Type-IIx]

Since size is generally well accepted as attainable by almost everyone, I think true performance enhancements might be in the offing. Whether myostatin or SARM, I think if you were able to develop a skeletal muscle specific receptor SARM that was suicidal in nature like Aromasin where once attached, caused the AR gene expression but otherwise was inactivated, would be ideal.

I don't know what you all know regarding kinesiology and musculoskeletal leverage but attachments of tendons just a few millimeters further down the joint from the rotational axis yields massive increases in strength. Possibly a surgical procedure to adjust the insertions of those attachments. With the way they can arthroscopically rebuild entire knees and shoulders today, does not seem too far fetched. Especially with nanotechnology which I'm sorry to say, is coming. These tiny machines could rebuild entire joints in hours or less, heal up, and be on your way. To curl 75lbs, your biceps are contracting with the force of 500lbs just due to the relatively poor leverage of the forearm. Landing from 3 feet, your calves are absorbing 1000lbs. Imagine someone with a 36" leap with the same contractile force can now have a 6' vertical leap.

A different version of that could possibly use the neurology inside the muscle to greatly increase muscle fiber recruitment while still maintaining fine motor skills like threading a needle or trying a shoelace.

I see many applications of that tech. I don't think military because military is already almost entirely machines vs machines.

Very true that attachments have profound effects on strength and, conversely, speed (the latter would actually be more beneficial for most sport) but would push up injury risk as well. In many ways, competition at the highest levels likely selects for optimal attachments in the performance sports (in addition to fiber type, etc.) But you could take an individual subpar powerlifter (force-dominant sport) due to his muscle attachments and theoretically adjust these attachments & yield a much stronger individual without much risk.

 

[Type-IIx]

This for longevity and health -Yamanaka Factors FGF (Fibroblast Growths factors) and miRNAs.

Yes I've been learning a lot about the burgeoning study of miRNAs (e.g., myomiRs under androgen regulation; the mir-465 miRNA family involved in GH/IGF-I/PI3K-Akt functions). There'll be a lot more to learn as the study of these advances.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Very true that attachments have profound effects on strength and, conversely, speed (the latter would actually be more beneficial for most sport) but would push up injury risk as well. In many ways, competition at the highest levels likely selects for optimal attachments in the performance sports (in addition to fiber type, etc.) But you could take an individual subpar powerlifter (force-dominant sport) due to his muscle attachments and theoretically adjust these attachments & yield a much stronger individual without much risk.

I'm not certain about about the proliferation of fiber types. Mechanically speaking, there would be a reduction is speed of the altered attachments. The bicep being attached so close to the rotational axis is what makes a person able to draw their forearm up at high speed. For example, tossing a tennis ball up and catching it. The problem would be whether they can lash the tendon to the bone with the same strength as the original attachment. Then it would be equal contractile force but more powerful. And if it would be a matter of the overall contractile unit length attachment to attachment, it would be on the order of millimeters which would likely just happen with stretching. Problem is also that along with our largest skeletal muscles there is just a blur of tiny stabilizer muscles as well.

I was just trying to parse everything outside the current primitive box of androgen blasting. We're making tiny steps forward in alternative pathways in phytochemicals and some genetic alterations discovered through existing fluke mutations but we could alter 10 genes per day for 1000 years and not pop out another mutant whippet. But what the future holds is an interesting question to ponder.

 

[Type-IIx]

I'm not certain about about the proliferation of fiber types. Mechanically speaking, there would be a reduction is speed of the altered attachments. The bicep being attached so close to the rotational axis is what makes a person able to draw their forearm up at high speed. For example, tossing a tennis ball up and catching it. The problem would be whether they can lash the tendon to the bone with the same strength as the original attachment. Then it would be equal contractile force but more powerful. And if it would be a matter of the overall contractile unit length attachment to attachment, it would be on the order of millimeters which would likely just happen with stretching. Problem is also that along with our largest skeletal muscles there is just a blur of tiny stabilizer muscles as well.

I was just trying to parse everything outside the current primitive box of androgen blasting. We're making tiny steps forward in alternative pathways in phytochemicals and some genetic alterations discovered through existing fluke mutations but we could alter 10 genes per day for 1000 years and not pop out another mutant whippet. But what the future holds is an interesting question to ponder.

I think we already see recruitment of "blade runners" into track & field like Pistorius (what a fall from grace that guy was) due to the CAS legal rule permitting such athletes to compete with able-bodied competitors. You'll see more of that as technology of prostheses improve. You see a real drive to innovate through whatever legal means necessary. Hell that Baar paper I cite in Footnote 2 on the Exogenous estradiol ≠ T's aromatic product has a practical conclusion that explains how female athletes can manipulate their use of exogenous estrogens (as oral contraceptives) for training and the in-season. It's legal doping with hormones, literally. So yes, I find all of this fascinating. I think "gene doping" - a world where parents can order up a child with selected genes expressed - is in our near future.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Very interesting, the meat head in me thinks hell yeah better bicep insertions lol, but absolutely the strength advantage of having a more mechanically advantageous insertion position would be tremendous!

I have to wonder if you’re familiar with, and if so, what you think of Doug Brignole’s work in regards to lever length/biomechanics/physics?

All I know of him is generally what he calls biomechanics. Sorry, nothing more. Does he discuss this? Would be cool to know if someone had. I got the idea watching the movie "Transcendence". A very interesting movie. It reminded me of the late Michael Crichton (RIP) author of Jurassic Park, State of Fear, Sphere, Timeline.. a lot of sci-fi fantasy but extremely well-researched. All tech savvy work, too. Enough to make it almost believable - if not now, in the not too distant future

 

[Biggerp73]

Perhaps utilizing hormones and drugs at a younger age. It's already been done for decades for people with things like dwarfism, etc. Now it's being done for people who are "trans." It might be the case that in the future low doses of HCG, test, GH, etc, could be used in male children for brief periods of time before puberty by their parents for more cosmetic purposes, to just help boost their child's quality of life.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Perhaps utilizing hormones and drugs at a younger age. It's already been done for decades for people with things like dwarfism, etc. Now it's being done for people who are "trans." It might be the case that in the future low doses of HCG, test, GH, etc, could be used in male children for brief periods of time before puberty by their parents for more cosmetic purposes, to just help boost their child's quality of life.

That may already be happening in gymnastics. A lot of 4' tall gymnasts out there.

 

[MasteroniPepperoni]

I see the shift away from aas, BUT it’s due to the lack of research and compounds that have been abandoned for humans. If they could do more research on what we have available , we could essentially produce more derivates and metabolites of them? SARMS will be used pharmaceutically soon. I believe LGD is going to be released for muscle wasting diseases

 

[J.DREDD]

All I know of him is generally what he calls biomechanics. Sorry, nothing more. Does he discuss this? Would be cool to know if someone had. I got the idea watching the movie "Transcendence". A very interesting movie. It reminded me of the late Michael Crichton (RIP) author of Jurassic Park, State of Fear, Sphere, Timeline.. a lot of sci-fi fantasy but extremely well-researched. All tech savvy work, too. Enough to make it almost believable - if not now, in the not too distant future

A big part of his stuff is just teaching how the various muscles attach, are strongest in the lengthened position, the strength curve, etc. He talked about how a variance in the insertion point could put the muscle in a much stronger position to exert force.

The bicep tendon insertion reminded me of his thoughts on the prevalence of distal tendon ruptures during a preacher curl as the bicep is at a significant mechanical disadvantage (pulling much more parallel to the forearm and upper arm when the arm is lengthened) but also the weight is further from the the elbow joint axis, thus creating a double magnifier, and causing ruptures.

 

[J.DREDD]

I see the shift away from aas, BUT it’s due to the lack of research and compounds that have been abandoned for humans. If they could do more research on what we have available , we could essentially produce more derivates and metabolites of them? SARMS will be used pharmaceutically soon. I believe LGD is going to be released for muscle wasting diseases

I think the R and D being put into muscle wasting diseases is admirable, but it will be interesting how much doctors really prescribe these compounds. It’s my understanding anavar is still heavily used in burn units.

I do find it interesting the genesis of S23 is an attempt at a male contraceptive. Anecdotally, it seems this stuff does turn users semen into water! I’ve also heard it’s a novel replacement for winstrol (theoretically).