Dave SOUNDS OFF On Insulin

[alfresco]

b) the natural aging process (I dont know of anyone ever who has a smaller waist at 45 than their 22 year old self

Thanks DC.

Yea, father time, no escaping it. Just look at the animal kingdom. Am reluctant to say all,
but damn near all mammals increase their ‘girth’ as a function of ageing. Seems pretty
normal to me.

 

[little slice]

I just want big delts tbh

 

[b_cornelius]

Would I get any real benefits from 250 mgs of test enanthate and 100 mgs of tren enanthate or equipoise per week with IGF-1 if I decided to try it?

My real question is regarding the igf-1.

Androgens are the permissive factor for IGF-1

Glucocorticoids are the permissive factor for hGH

I think that a person should tag their androgen levels to their IGF levels. How they do it exactly, I don't know. Excessive androgens could be a waste without matching the appropriate amount of IGF. A person should definitely approach it this way as they develop an understanding of their cycles.

I actually think that your proposal is an ideal starting point.

You know, all the things that Dave is saying in this video would be points that I would like to get across to people. However, it's not all that simple, and it is also great to figure how and when to administer GH and Insulin. Using straight IGF would be necessary because you use IGF for IGF, and you use a little insulin for it's primary qualities, while pulsing some GH just like it likes it. The whole point is that you don't abuse GH and Insulin just to produce some liver-IGF. You should use them each in the most appropriate way.

 

[RamboStallone]

Would I get any real benefits from 250 mgs of test enanthate and 100 mgs of tren enanthate or equipoise per week with IGF-1 if I decided to try it?

My real question is regarding the igf-1.

Yes you would. Especially with the tren, tren also increases insulin sensitivity so the combination would be very synergistic. You should recomp pretty nicely.

 

[Airhonn]

Actually, that is the old-school way of thinking...and it was completely wrong. Unfortunately, there are some guys that still peddle this crap. I am not referring to you...because you likely just don't know, but there are guys who should know better and don't.

Using insulin to combat GH-induced insulin resistance is completely counterproductive and just makes the problem worse. Yes, it will help solve the surface problem of elevated blood glucose levels, but it ultimately makes the underlying problem (insulin resistance) even worse, as both insulin and GH contribute to insulin resistance through various mechanisms.

These days, the smart guys take steps to maintain insulin sensitivity and keep the potential underlying problem at bay, rather than using a cover-up solution that just exacerbates the core issue.

Haha no I'm not well versed in insulin, plus I was going full tilt at bodybuilding when I was under his coaching. My body transformed under him either way, but this has been an interesting thread to read. Thanks for the insight Mike I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[b_cornelius]

Yes you would. Especially with the tren, tren also increases insulin sensitivity so the combination would be very synergistic. You should recomp pretty nicely.

no doubt,
and I see why you'd call bullshit on this vid.

Really all this stuff is about thresholds. Insulin isn't merely a GLUT-4 glucose mechanism, it does other things. More insulin than usual will proliferate cells, that's the whole "threshold" thing, certain levels can have different actions in relation to other actions and so on into complexity.

Yet Insulin's primary function in muscle is anti-catabolic, secondarily anabolic. So like you were talking about, pre-workout insulin's great for protection, then comes the MGF production.

 

[bigorse]

Insulin is without a doubt an anabolic hormone and an anti catabolic hormone and even if it wasn't you appear much bigger on it anyway and this is bodybuilding... whether it's muscle tissue or above physiological amount of carbs in the muscle it really doesn't make any difference. But without a doubt with insulin you can put on good muscle without fat if used properly even without needing to use GH although it would obviously be much better with it


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[bigorse]

And just something that may surprise you insulin is heavily used in powerlifting too for its ability to wack good mass on quickly which equates to more strength... you want to jump up a class? Test, deca, low tren and insulin


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[Mike Arnold]

a) insulin usage
b) the natural aging process (I dont know of anyone ever who has a smaller waist at 45 than their 22 year old self
c) Very hard to have a wasp like waist when you carry over 250lbs of muscle mass
d) I dont personally believe its viscerial fat, I do believe its a combination of organ growth and (e)
e) A damaged transverse abdominis which is pretty much the natural spring that keeps the abdominal wall inward<-----this right here with the combo of insulin distention+food intake, large size, aging, organ growth from insulin usage I believe is the main problem....it gets pushed outwards and outwards until it becomes a slinky that has been stretched too far for too long.....

Is there a solution? Yea vacuums done virtually daily would help an incredible amount...along with the above reasons for the extreme distension in the first place.

Thats my theory anyway. Think of the pro bodybuilders in the past who could do awesome vacuums....tony pearson, brian buchanon, chris cormier, Lee Haney, Shawn Ray, even Jason Huh a little bit......virtually none of them have distended guts...

Just my theory on it...I could be right i could be wrong

I've written extensively on this subject over the years and I am 100% in agreement with you.

Every factor you mentioned plays a role, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the individual, but one factor that most bodybuilders completely neglect is the transverse abdominis. It is almost entirely responsible for maintaining abdominal integrity...and once this muscle is damaged through chronic stretching, the only way to regain that loss of stability/elasticity is to start training the transverse abdominis directly.

Vacuum training, which I have written articles on multiple times, is, I believe, the single best way to fix the problem. However, barely anyone does it anymore, when in reality it should be more important than ever! With all the potential risk factors inherent in modern professional bodybuilding, failing to engage in vacuum training all but guarantees significant waist expansion...and while some of this is unavoidable (especially in those who have gained a lot of size), a large amount of it can be prevented through the implementation of this single training technique.

It's a shame it isn't done more often. I think if more bodybuilders knew just how dramatic of an effect it can have on their waistline, more guys would be doing it.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Haha no I'm not well versed in insulin, plus I was going full tilt at bodybuilding when I was under his coaching. My body transformed under him either way, but this has been an interesting thread to read. Thanks for the insight Mike I enjoy reading your posts.

Thanks, buddy. I'm glad you experienced good progress while working with him.

 

[LEX]

Fake gh Dave? oh yea that guy.

 

[G.I.Bro]

a) insulin usage
b) the natural aging process (I dont know of anyone ever who has a smaller waist at 45 than their 22 year old self
c) Very hard to have a wasp like waist when you carry over 250lbs of muscle mass
d) I dont personally believe its viscerial fat, I do believe its a combination of organ growth and (e)
e) A damaged transverse abdominis which is pretty much the natural spring that keeps the abdominal wall inward<-----this right here with the combo of insulin distention+food intake, large size, aging, organ growth from insulin usage I believe is the main problem....it gets pushed outwards and outwards until it becomes a slinky that has been stretched too far for too long.....

Is there a solution? Yea vacuums done virtually daily would help an incredible amount...along with the above reasons for the extreme distension in the first place.

Thats my theory anyway. Think of the pro bodybuilders in the past who could do awesome vacuums....tony pearson, brian buchanon, chris cormier, Lee Haney, Shawn Ray, even Jason Huh a little bit......virtually none of them have distended guts...

Just my theory on it...I could be right i could be wrong

This is an issue I've thought a lot about. As I've gotten older and bigger and also played with slin more, I've seen more distention no matter. It's hard to nail down the specific cause because of so many factors. I tend to agree with DC though. It's not directly from gh (although indirect organ growth through gh and overfeeding can be at play). I too believe insulin use (even moderate) seems to have coincided with a noticeable change in me personally. I'd wondered if it was VAT deposition from slin, but DC seems to think it's not and is more the insulin which I assume results in the gh+slin surges in IGF-1 and then growth of intestines, stomach etc. Right?

 

[11111]

Fake gh Dave? oh yea that guy.

haha when I saw the title of the thread I said "when is lex gonna enter?!!"

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

This is an issue I've thought a lot about. As I've gotten older and bigger and also played with slin more, I've seen more distention no matter. It's hard to nail down the specific cause because of so many factors. I tend to agree with DC though. It's not directly from gh (although indirect organ growth through gh and overfeeding can be at play). I too believe insulin use (even moderate) seems to have coincided with a noticeable change in me personally. I'd wondered if it was VAT deposition from slin, but DC seems to think it's not and is more the insulin which I assume results in the gh+slin surges in IGF-1 and then growth of intestines, stomach etc. Right?

I have a very very hard time believing its viscerial fat....these guys are getting down to mid single digit bodyfat percentages and are distended as hell still....People used to say thats the hardest fat to lose and comes off last....when in actuality (its been awhile since i studied it...going on memory) I believe it comes off first in the dieting process....and thats for someone normal....put a 6% bodyfat onstage bodybuilder in the mix and I dont see that viscerial fat being there at all....so I believe its a combo of the many factors I named...and as much as I would tend to think the organ growth came from a combo of insulin and GH...I find it peculiar that insulin usage really came to the front in the later 90's early 2000's yet guys were using growth hormone earlier than that by itself and you just really didnt see the distention until insulin was added to the mix.

 

[G.I.Bro]

I have a very very hard time believing its viscerial fat....these guys are getting down to mid single digit bodyfat percentages and are distended as hell still....People used to say thats the hardest fat to lose and comes off last....when in actuality (its been awhile since i studied it...going on memory) I believe it comes off first in the dieting process....and thats for someone normal....put a 6% bodyfat onstage bodybuilder in the mix and I dont see that viscerial fat being there at all....so I believe its a combo of the many factors I named...and as much as I would tend to think the organ growth came from a combo of insulin and GH...I find it peculiar that insulin usage really came to the front in the later 90's early 2000's yet guys were using growth hormone earlier than that by itself and you just really didnt see the distention until insulin was added to the mix.

I tend to agree. It's confounded me because I'd get real lean and still have more distention than years past. When I tightened ab wall, it was fine. In addition, based on my reading (and despite bro myth) visceral or VAT diets away FIRST.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I have a very very hard time believing its viscerial fat....these guys are getting down to mid single digit bodyfat percentages and are distended as hell still....People used to say thats the hardest fat to lose and comes off last....when in actuality (its been awhile since i studied it...going on memory) I believe it comes off first in the dieting process....and thats for someone normal....put a 6% bodyfat onstage bodybuilder in the mix and I dont see that viscerial fat being there at all....so I believe its a combo of the many factors I named...and as much as I would tend to think the organ growth came from a combo of insulin and GH...I find it peculiar that insulin usage really came to the front in the later 90's early 2000's yet guys were using growth hormone earlier than that by itself and you just really didnt see the distention until insulin was added to the mix.

Correct. Visceral fat is the first fat to come off when dieting, so by the time a bodybuilder gets very lean, the visceral fat is long gone. A bodybuilder would have to be suffering from severe (and I mean severe) visceral fat build-up in order to still have considerable visceral fat storage on contest day.

However, I do believe that there are some off-season, insulin resistant bodybuilders out there experiencing visceral fat build-up (mostly the perma-bulkers living in a constant caloric surplus and abusing the shit out of GH and insulin). It only makes sense, as these are the conditions which lead to visceral fat build-up. Fortunately, it seems that more and more of today's bodybuilders have wisened up when it comes to insulin use, so we don't see as many guys with severe insulin resistance.

 

[b_cornelius]

I've written extensively on this subject over the years and I am 100% in agreement with you.

Every factor you mentioned plays a role, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the individual, but one factor that most bodybuilders completely neglect is the transverse abdominis. It is almost entirely responsible for maintaining abdominal integrity...and once this muscle is damaged through chronic stretching, the only way to regain that loss of stability/elasticity is to start training the transverse abdominis directly.

Vacuum training, which I have written articles on multiple times, is, I believe, the single best way to fix the problem. However, barely anyone does it anymore, when in reality it should be more important than ever! With all the potential risk factors inherent in modern professional bodybuilding, failing to engage in vacuum training all but guarantees significant waist expansion...and while some of this is unavoidable (especially in those who have gained a lot of size), a large amount of it can be prevented through the implementation of this single training technique.

It's a shame it isn't done more often. I think if more bodybuilders knew just how dramatic of an effect it can have on their waistline, more guys would be doing it.

I had been doing the vacuums 5x weekly then fell off the wagon. Thanks for the reminder.

Have you had any success with those waist trainers?

 

[G.I.Bro]

Correct. Visceral fat is the first fat to come off when dieting, so by the time a bodybuilder gets very lean, the visceral fat is long gone. A bodybuilder would have to be suffering from severe (and I mean severe) visceral fat build-up in order to still have considerable visceral fat storage on contest day.

However, I do believe that there are some off-season, insulin resistant bodybuilders out there experiencing visceral fat build-up (mostly the perma-bulkers living in a constant caloric surplus and abusing the shit out of GH and insulin). It only makes sense, as these are the conditions which lead to visceral fat build-up. Fortunately, it seems that more and more of today's bodybuilders have wisened up when it comes to insulin use, so we don't see as many guys with severe insulin resistance.

So this is why the true origin of distention is always vexing to me. I agree it's a combination of factors and age. But what hormonal factor is the dominant cause (slin or the gh). If it's not VAT, and aside from the weak ab wall (which I definitely agree with), the only other culprit is enlarged intestines and other organs from the increased IGF-1 from chronic gh+slin use and also the chronic overfeeding (a very real factor). I mean if the concensus is (from DC and MA) that the increase in IGF-1 contributes, you'd have to agree this can occur without insulin use too, right? The marginal increase in IGF-1 from the addition of slin's synergy can't be the sole cause of increased organ growth. It's the IGF-1 in general under that logic.

The problem I have with accepting that higher IGF-1 causes organ/intestine growth, without any reservation, is that we don't see this clinical observance in the literature, right? There are people (particularly HIV patients) treated with HIGH doses of pharma gh, and they don't get huge distended guts. The medical community does not recognize enlarged digestive organs/intestines as a side effect of chronic gh use. In addition, a lot of experts in this field do not believe GH causes this. On the flip side, many vets and intelligent people definitely associate and correlate slin and gh use with abdominal distention. I've certainly seen it with chronic gh use. My slin use was very minimal. But I've also gotten older, bigger, and force fed myself way more to hold and gain the new mass. Tracking down any sole culprit is hard. But I'm still not sold on slin causing distention/organ growth without the gh component in there (assuming as we have its not VAT). IGF-1 would be the cause, not the slin (under that logic).

Does that make sense? In summary, I guess what I'm saying if it's not VAT(which I agree, I don't think it is), I don't see how slin alone can be the culprit either. Slin doesn't directly cause organ growth. It's potentially IGF-1 from slin/gh. But then why don't we see documentation of patients getting high dose gh with this same phenomenon?

Help me where my logic is off please.

 

[b_cornelius]

If we'd want to be simple about it, the answer is inflammation. Antagonists and Modulators of selective inflammatory pathways are the next best thing.

IGF does the protein synthesis, androgens do the protein metabolism, then inflammation is the switch that you flick to ignite all the stuff. Kind of like you need to do the workouts.

But inflammation of the other organs...

 

[alfresco]

can anybody answer this?

By visceral fat do you mean the mesentery / mesenteric fat?