Dave SOUNDS OFF On Insulin

[11111]

I had been doing the vacuums 5x weekly then fell off the wagon. Thanks for the reminder.

Have you had any success with those waist trainers?

b, I don't mean to put him out there but I remember a post by dante a while back talking about how waist trainers/corsets really do work. he wasn't recommending them though. they are getting more and more popular these days and dante was one of the first guys way back to talk about them.

loved reading his posts and newsletter writings on structural adaption back in the day when it came to shoulder width, the ribcage/serratus, etc.....

not to kiss dante's ass to much but everything he's ever recommended that I've tried, has worked quite well so I tend to listen when he mentions something.

 

[DarkBeast]

Love Dave...but he's off

 

[G.I.Bro]

Love Dave...but he's off

I do too. I watch all is Q/A videos (Ask Dave). But Dave also believes (and promotes) that when you are done with a blast cycle, you should come completely off and "crash" to essentially let your AR re-sensitize. He has people use ZERO test for a while. This is silliness and he's too smart to endorse such a thing, but he does. AR down-regulation is a myth.

When unattached to an androgen, the androgen receptors (AR) have a short half life of approximately 3 hours, die and turn over with new ones, cyclically. When Androgen is present and BOUND, they become more sensitive, their half life is doubled and the amount of new AR being formed also increases substantially. In summary, androgens UP-REGULATE the AR. By crashing your hormone profile with zero replacement test and high estrogen, you do not make your AR "more sensitive" to androgens. The best thing to do is come off to around a TRT dose and focus on balancing out, health for the cruise. The Focus is on staying as anabolic as possible to hold the mass you have with reduced hormone.

The phenomenon of plateauing or "stalling out" gains at blast level dosages and needing more hormone or food is very real and observed. There are a host of physiological reasons for this perceived stall out (and often the body does need a break) but it is not because the AR needs to be re-sensitized. How he can be as smart as he is and believe this, I have no idea. I believe he's confused the seeming logic of his own personal (anecdotal) observations of stalling out growth with known science. If I am confused on something here, please let me know...

 

[little slice]

I do too. I watch all is Q/A videos (Ask Dave). But Dave also believes (and promotes) that when you are done with a blast cycle, you should come completely off and "crash" to essentially let your AR re-sensitize. He has people use ZERO test for a while. This is silliness and he's too smart to endorse such a thing, but he does. AR down-regulation is a myth.

When unattached to an androgen, the androgen receptors (AR) have a short half life of approximately 3 hours, die and turn over with new ones, cyclically. When Androgen is present and BOUND, they become more sensitive, their half life is doubled and the amount of new AR being formed also increases substantially. In summary, androgens UP-REGULATE the AR. By crashing your hormone profile with zero replacement test and high estrogen, you do not make your AR "more sensitive" to androgens. The best thing to do is come off to around a TRT dose and focus on balancing out, health for the cruise. The Focus is on staying as anabolic as possible to hold the mass you have with reduced hormone.

The phenomenon of plateauing or "stalling out" gains at blast level dosages and needing more hormone or food is very real and observed. There are a host of physiological reasons for this perceived stall out (and often the body does need a break) but it is not because the AR needs to be re-sensitized. How he can be as smart as he is and believe this, I have no idea. I believe he's confused the seeming logic of his own personal (anecdotal) observations of stalling out growth with known science. If I am confused on something here, please let me know...

im lightweight thinking of doing "the Swiper" and just staying on 2g test year round...

lol... either way, im done with tren and orals.. maybe ill be able to save up some $$ to buy some good GH to run alongside the insulin.

 

[little slice]

b, I don't mean to put him out there but I remember a post by dante a while back talking about how waist trainers/corsets really do work. he wasn't recommending them though. they are getting more and more popular these days and dante was one of the first guys way back to talk about them.

if nothing else, "squeem" is just fun to say..





squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemmmmm



:sta;-wars

 

[RamboStallone]

I do too. I watch all is Q/A videos (Ask Dave). But Dave also believes (and promotes) that when you are done with a blast cycle, you should come completely off and "crash" to essentially let your AR re-sensitize. He has people use ZERO test for a while. This is silliness and he's too smart to endorse such a thing, but he does. AR down-regulation is a myth.

When unattached to an androgen, the androgen receptors (AR) have a short half life of approximately 3 hours, die and turn over with new ones, cyclically. When Androgen is present and BOUND, they become more sensitive, their half life is doubled and the amount of new AR being formed also increases substantially. In summary, androgens UP-REGULATE the AR. By crashing your hormone profile with zero replacement test and high estrogen, you do not make your AR "more sensitive" to androgens. The best thing to do is come off to around a TRT dose and focus on balancing out, health for the cruise. The Focus is on staying as anabolic as possible to hold the mass you have with reduced hormone.

The phenomenon of plateauing or "stalling out" gains at blast level dosages and needing more hormone or food is very real and observed. There are a host of physiological reasons for this perceived stall out (and often the body does need a break) but it is not because the AR needs to be re-sensitized. How he can be as smart as he is and believe this, I have no idea. I believe he's confused the seeming logic of his own personal (anecdotal) observations of stalling out growth with known science. If I am confused on something here, please let me know...

He lacks understanding is what it comes down to really. Even when presenting new info, he falls back on outdated information/theories that have been debunked.

The AR receptor does up regulate, this is fact. So technically the more the merrier when it comes to anabolics [emoji6]

Same has been theorized for igf/gh.

Yet Dave is screaming igf1-r and AR down regulation/desensitization....

 

[2swole79]

A good number of reputable guys I've talked with have said no to underestimate the role of chronic overfeeding and permabulkng on stomach distension...clearly there is a hormonal component too, but that without the overfeeding it likely wouldn't become nearly as severe....also I've personally experienced what felt like the beginings of a tearing of my stomach wall just below the Sternum while really straining with an exaggerated arch in my back on inline BB presses, ever since then the seperation on my top 2 abs has looked "different", not as deeply seperated...from the outward pressure...this could also be a contributing factor, maybe if some of these guys wore there belts tight on other excercises, they might not aggravate the condition as much...

 

[RamboStallone]

He lacks understanding is what it comes down to really. Even when presenting new info, he falls back on outdated information/theories that have been debunked.

The AR receptor does up regulate, this is fact. So technically the more the merrier when it comes to anabolics [emoji6]

Same has been theorized for igf/gh.

Yet Dave is screaming igf1-r and AR down regulation/desensitization....

Check out post #24, directly debunks those old myths of down regulation, desensitization, or whatever made up stuff guys like Dave P are preaching.

 

[RamboStallone]

A good number of reputable guys I've talked with have said no to underestimate the role of chronic overfeeding and permabulkng on stomach distension...clearly there is a hormonal component too, but that without the overfeeding it likely wouldn't become nearly as severe....also I've personally experienced what felt like the beginings of a tearing of my stomach wall just below the Sternum while really straining with an exaggerated arch in my back on inline BB presses, ever since then the seperation on my top 2 abs has looked "different", not as deeply seperated...from the outward pressure...this could also be a contributing factor, maybe if some of these guys wore there belts tight on other excercises, they might not aggravate the condition as much...

Keep overfilling a tire with air "bulking" it, see what happens to the shape even after deflated.

 

[LEX]

haha when I saw the title of the thread I said "when is lex gonna enter?!!"

Never forget

 

[Mike Arnold]

This is an issue I've thought a lot about. As I've gotten older and bigger and also played with slin more, I've seen more distention no matter. It's hard to nail down the specific cause because of so many factors. I tend to agree with DC though. It's not directly from gh (although indirect organ growth through gh and overfeeding can be at play). I too believe insulin use (even moderate) seems to have coincided with a noticeable change in me personally. I'd wondered if it was VAT deposition from slin, but DC seems to think it's not and is more the insulin which I assume results in the gh+slin surges in IGF-1 and then growth of intestines, stomach etc. Right?

IGF-1 is the primary culprit when it comes to organ growth, but IGF-1 levels alone are not the only relevant factor. The body's sensitivity to IGF-1 also plays a big role. More specifically, during a state of insulin resistance the organs become super-responsive to the actions of IGF-1, causing organ growth to occur at a more rapid rate. Therefore, insulin resistance in combination with super elevated IGF-1 levels is the main driving force behind organ growth.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I had been doing the vacuums 5x weekly then fell off the wagon. Thanks for the reminder.

Have you had any success with those waist trainers?

I have minimal experience with them, but I have seen them work in a handful of individuals. Whether they work or not really isn't the issue in my mind, as we already know they work. To me, the real issue is safety...because to achieve significant waist reduction one has to out skeletal and organ integrity at risk. they can adversely affect the digestion process, breathing, and even cause deformation if done improperly.

I do think they can be safely used...to a degree, but in order to experience dramatic results (the kind of results women were experiencing back when these devices were commonly used by females), you are almost guaranteed to experience some degree of internal damage/dysfunction.

Fortunately, most bodybuilders don't need to experience such dramatic effects in order to receive significant benefit. The point here is that if they are used moderately (and correctly), I don't see any issue with them, but when used to excess or improperly, I do.

 

[Mike Arnold]

A good number of reputable guys I've talked with have said no to underestimate the role of chronic overfeeding and permabulkng on stomach distension...clearly there is a hormonal component too, but that without the overfeeding it likely wouldn't become nearly as severe....also I've personally experienced what felt like the beginings of a tearing of my stomach wall just below the Sternum while really straining with an exaggerated arch in my back on inline BB presses, ever since then the seperation on my top 2 abs has looked "different", not as deeply seperated...from the outward pressure...this could also be a contributing factor, maybe if some of these guys wore there belts tight on other excercises, they might not aggravate the condition as much...

Of course, food intake is a HUGE factor for a lot of guys, especially the big ones with rapid metabolisms, as they are forced to eat far beyond what their body would normally require in order to obtain pro-level size. Like some of us said earlier, it stretches out the transverse abdominis and causes the organs to bow outward. Anything which causes pressure to be applied from the inside of the abdominal wall can stretch this muscle, including food and training. In turn, anything which relieves or counters this pressure can help prevent it (a belt, for instance).

 

[G.I.Bro]

IGF-1 is the primary culprit when it comes to organ growth, but IGF-1 levels alone are not the only relevant factor. The body's sensitivity to IGF-1 also plays a big role. More specifically, during a state of insulin resistance the organs become super-responsive to the actions of IGF-1, causing organ growth to occur at a more rapid rate. Therefore, insulin resistance in combination with super elevated IGF-1 levels is the main driving force behind organ growth.

Makes sense. So you're basically saying when using gh and slin, and you let insulin sensitivity get too out of whack, you enter into an atmosphere where internal organs like the stomach, colon and intestines are primed to grow even more despite overall IGF-1 levels not necessarily being drastically higher than what's seen in common usage. Is that basically correct? I'm not too educated on that phenomenon.

So do you (or DC) have any advice to help tighten up a waistline other than the basic most common advice.

1. Vacuums / ab work. Belt usage when training.
2. Reduce per meal food amounts (over eating) and focus in small controlled meals more often.
3. Maintain insulin sensitivity (as much as possible when using gh, slin or both, which is hard at times).

Do you think using metformin during gh is wise to help maintain sensitivity. I do know from past posts you're a big berberine fan too. But let's focus on metformin for just a moment. Do you feel it reduces IGF-1 enough to negate some of the benefits of gh? I pretty much use gh year round with no breaks for some time now. Ranges from 2-4iu max. I also take metformin most of the year though too. I admit, I don't test my blood sugar much at all.

 

[Big Slice]

Big Slice take on insulin.If you are doing shows at a fairly young age do it.Not worth it in the long run.Personally growth isn't worth the dollars either in the long term,because you will return to baseline soon.jmo hope i don't get banned again.

 

[RamboStallone]

Check out post #24, directly debunks those old myths of down regulation, desensitization, or whatever made up stuff guys like Dave P are preaching.

Oops forgot the link, post #24 has the studies posted by BigTex http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2341593

 

[emeric delczeg]

He lacks understanding is what it comes down to really. Even when presenting new info, he falls back on outdated information/theories that have been debunked.

The AR receptor does up regulate, this is fact. So technically the more the merrier when it comes to anabolics [emoji6]

Same has been theorized for igf/gh.

Yet Dave is screaming igf1-r and AR down regulation/desensitization....

He lacks more that just understanding.

 

[emeric delczeg]

I personally felt it was the most overrated ergo aid ever used. I think it works awesome for people who dont have the appetite to gain size...thats who ive seen it work best for. I didnt have that problem...I could always forcefeed myself to gain size. I used it during the 10 grams of carbs per IU period in the early 2000's (humalog/humalin R)....I personally felt the downsides to it by tenfold ruined the upside of it. The downside was abdominal distention like no other...so much so it ruined my abdominal wall....and I ended up with the turtle shell look with slight tears/linea alba totally gone...a diastasis recti situation. For people who cannot eat their way up in size, it feels like a gamechanger for them, ......but I would rather have kept my abdominal wall....and I regret ever using it (especially the method everyone was using/trying back then)...full as hell, incredible pumps, but distention like no tommorow

Russian sport pharmacologists have been supplemented insulin in a dose 1 IU per 70 kg body weight every third day only, so Milos and the rest of the bodybuilders protocol is totally wrong.

 

[gotgame]

I glanced at a few posts on this thread discussing visceral fat and some dont believe the distension is due to that.. sorry guys but you are incorrect. In some cases it is multifactorial but id say 80% of the cases ive seen are due to large accumulations of visceral fat.

I will say that again for clarity. Ballparking it but over 80% of the cases ive seen were due to visceral fat.


Another 15% were due to visceral fat and diastasis of the rectus which probably came from as someone mentioned above overeating, bulking and years of internal stress stretching it. But they still had a lot of visceral fat.

The other 5% or so did have some organ enlargement. Most often the liver in CC direction along with some visceral fat.


I dont know how i can be more clear. Ive seen many CT scans and MRI with in and out of phase imaging of bbers. I mean i worked in NJ/NYC and southern cali. Body large bb communities and guys came in all the time. very little subq fat( i can see that clearly on the scan) yet protuding abdomens. Its not even a question... there was a very large amount of visceral fat.


i made a post on WCBB about some ways to combat it. The very short of it would be as some ppl mentioned above working on your abdominal wall, dont over eat, limit GH/slin usage, mixture of HIIT and Low intensity cardio, metfromin, telmisartan and other diet modifications.


I really hope we can put this to bed. The vast majority of bbers due not have organ growth to the extent that is causing the distension ( dont bother posting a few cases studies..im talkign about the majority), for the majority it is diastasis of rectus with VISCERAL ( or visceral fat alone) fat accumulation. Period.

 

[RamboStallone]

I glanced at a few posts on this thread discussing visceral fat and some dont believe the distension is due to that.. sorry guys but you are incorrect. In some cases it is multifactorial but id say 80% of the cases ive seen are due to large accumulations of visceral fat.

I will say that again for clarity. Ballparking it but over 80% of the cases ive seen were due to visceral fat.


Another 15% were due to visceral fat and diastasis of the rectus which probably came from as someone mentioned above overeating, bulking and years of internal stress stretching it. But they still had a lot of visceral fat.

The other 5% or so did have some organ enlargement. Most often the liver in CC direction along with some visceral fat.


I dont know how i can be more clear. Ive seen many CT scans and MRI with in and out of phase imaging of bbers. I mean i worked in NJ/NYC and southern cali. Body large bb communities and guys came in all the time. very little subq fat( i can see that clearly on the scan) yet protuding abdomens. Its not even a question... there was a very large amount of visceral fat.


i made a post on WCBB about some ways to combat it. The very short of it would be as some ppl mentioned above working on your abdominal wall, dont over eat, limit GH/slin usage, mixture of HIIT and Low intensity cardio, metfromin, telmisartan and other diet modifications.


I really hope we can put this to bed. The vast majority of bbers due not have organ growth to the extent that is causing the distension ( dont bother posting a few cases studies..im talkign about the majority), for the majority it is diastasis of rectus with VISCERAL fat accumulation. Period.

Thank you for weighing in. I really have a hard time believing visceral fat is the first to go. That makes absolutely no sense at all to me. I'm a firm believer in VAT being the issue and directly caused by insulin resistance.

Do you happen to see their bloodwork? Interested in signs of insulin resistance.