Carb surplus with slin= fat gain.

[Thebigone]

I just can't wrap my head around fat gain while using insulin. I understand that if you eat fat while insulin is present you will gain fat much faster than if you were not using insulin. With Humalog if you follow the 10carb per iu on the first spike(15min post injection) and 5carb in the 2nd spike(60-90min post injection) for most people this will be the accurate range to benefit muscle gain without fat storage and not going hypo. On my next lean bulker I plan to use around 7iu pre workout with my gh and igf. It's no problem to have around 75 g waxy maize with some whey 15min later but about 60 to 90 minutes later when my workout is over and I get my second spike I only need 35 carbs but usually around that time I take in a good 75 carbs when not using insulin. So does that mean those extra 40 carbs are going to turn to fat? Also I wanted to have even more carbs intra work out so then again does that mean those carbs are also going to turn to fat since I'm passing the 10 carbs per iu rule? I understand you don't want fat in your system while insulin is present but I'm having a hard time understanding how fat gain can occur with a surplus of carbohydrates with insulin? Thanks

 

[bieberhole69]

Honestly, I don't believe the myth.

I've taken upwards of 20g carbs per IU and stayed incredibly lean.

Think about the old pro cycles...PIE FILLING with insulin. Pie filling has something like 17g fat a serving. Those guys stayed stupid lean.

The best way to do it is dose the insulin to the carbs. If you can shuttle 100g carbs with 5iu because you're that sensitive to insulin, why use more? Save it and as you desensitize, boost the dose.

Ultimately, caloric excess = whether or not you'll get fat. My guess is that slin just predisposes people to more fat gain since you become more insulin resistant as you use it.

 

[Elvia1023]

You do realize you can get fat from over eating carbs and even protein... regardless of slin being present? Add slin to the mix and it could make things worse as it's a storage hormone. Insulin is non selective so everything goes to muscle and fat cells.

 

[asteelz]

You do realize you can get fat from over eating carbs and even protein... regardless of slin being present? Add slin to the mix and it could make things worse as it's a storage hormone. Insulin is non selective so everything goes to muscle and fat cells.

Yes and no, other hormones will bind to the tyrosine kinase receptor that insulin occupies, with receptor activity highest in trained muscle.

 

[Elvia1023]

Honestly, I don't believe the myth.

I've taken upwards of 20g carbs per IU and stayed incredibly lean.

Think about the old pro cycles...PIE FILLING with insulin. Pie filling has something like 17g fat a serving. Those guys stayed stupid lean.

The best way to do it is dose the insulin to the carbs. If you can shuttle 100g carbs with 5iu because you're that sensitive to insulin, why use more? Save it and as you desensitize, boost the dose.

Ultimately, caloric excess = whether or not you'll get fat. My guess is that slin just predisposes people to more fat gain since you become more insulin resistant as you use it.

Exactly.

If someone is going to use insulin they want to get the most out of it. I never understand the guys who use the smallest amount of carbs possible and go borderline hypo almost daily because of it. A guy needs to be lean and have good sensitivity in the first place before getting the most out of slin. Now if someone is concerned about fat gain on slin they usually need to look at their diet as a whole. Although taking it pre workout definitely helps prevent any fat gain when using slin.

I don't use slin much but I wouldn't think anything of having 100g carbs with 5IU slin. The way I look at it I am going to have aminos and carbs intra when bulking so if slin can help shuttle all those nutrients then even better. Most guys shouldn't be getting fat with sensible slin usage combined with a good diet. If they are then something is not quite right and they obviously have to reduce/change things.

 

[Elvia1023]

Yes and no, other hormones will bind to the tyrosine kinase receptor that insulin occupies, with receptor activity highest in trained muscle.

Quite honestly what he asked to me is extremely basic and there is no need to overcomplicate things. I think he is misunderstanding some basic things so he doesn't need to worry himself about other hormones binding to the tyrosine kinase receptor. The guy is eating no fat when slin is present and wondering if the small amount of carbs he has later on is making him get fat.

Thebigone I would recommend consuming a steady flow of aminos and carbs when the insulin is present. If you have a shake sip it slowly as opposed to drinking it fast. I found when experimenting with slin if I drank my shake fast I would go hypo later on. Whereas if I sipped it slowly the same amount of carbs/protein would result in no signs of hypo. It's not just the amount of carbs you consume but their timing that is important.

 

[asteelz]

Quite honestly what he asked to me is extremely basic and there is no need to overcomplicate things. I think he is misunderstanding some basic things so he doesn't need to worry himself about other hormones binding to the tyrosine kinase receptor. The guy is eating no fat when slin is present and wondering if the small amount of carbs he has later on is making him get fat.

Thebigone I would recommend consuming a steady flow of aminos and carbs when the insulin is present. If you have a shake sip it slowly as opposed to drinking it fast. I found when experimenting with slin if I drank my shake fast I would go hypo later on. Whereas if I sipped it slowly the same amount of carbs/protein would result in no signs of hypo. It's not just the amount of carbs you consume but their timing that is important.

Information for the purpose of conversation, and education. The purpose of a forum. Seems its over your head, but others may understand.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

It seems like only people who aren't being realistic with their diet are the ones who struggle with gaining fat on insulin.

When you use insulin, your body will have no choice but to shuttle what's in the blood stream to it's usable, final destination.

The basic situation is that guys are just eating too much, and or eating the wrong nutrients. Beyond that, I don't think there's much of an argument. It seems like most pros, high level amateurs, and pro level coaches don't seem to have much of an issue because they're just more logical in their approach. They aren't trying to reinvent the wheel.

The combo of Humalog and GH make me look tighter, fuller, more pumped, and improves the recovery of my training sessions IMMENSELY.

Dave Johnston and I got a chance to speak to JP Fux about insulin use during his career. He attributes his stomach distention to ABUSE of insulin, as in way, way too much... but he does NOT attribute the distention to the USE of insulin. According to him, everything was fine until he became an all day, every day user. Even then, it wasn't so much conditioning, as it was the size of his stomach. Half of that was due to the amount of food volume needed to keep blood sugar steady. When he dropped the insulin to a lower amount, he claimed to have been normalized within less than 6 months, and the mistake was just a minor one.

As with most things, these errors seem to be more user errors, under-education, or over-thinking. KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.

 

[Elvia1023]

Information for the purpose of conversation, and education. The purpose of a forum. Seems its over your head, but others may understand.

No trust me I understood and nothing went over my head. This is an open forum and every thread has numerous posts that often go in different directions and require different levels of understanding. But when a guy creates a thread like this... well I think BDS summed it up perfectly when he just wrote " seems like only people who aren't being realistic with their diet are the ones who struggle with gaining fat on insulin." That's not to say insulin can't cause extra fat gain but I don't think the problem lies in an extra 35g of carbs to stop him from going hypo.

 

[Gunsmith]

You do realize you can get fat from over eating carbs and even protein... regardless of slin being present? Add slin to the mix and it could make things worse as it's a storage hormone. Insulin is non selective so everything goes to muscle and fat cells.

Wait , so you're saying eating excess protein can cause fat gain??
i thought that any protein that the muscles couldn't absorb was "wasted" out through the kidneys.

 

[sub7percent]

i tried slin for the first time recently. 15iu preworkout along with 5iu hgh and 50mg dbol. i ate a shit ton of carbs pre/intra/post and blew up and didnt gain any noticeable fat.

 

[Elvia1023]

Wait , so you're saying eating excess protein can cause fat gain??
i thought that any protein that the muscles couldn't absorb was "wasted" out through the kidneys.

You can get fat eating an access in calories regardless of the macros. However the chances of getting fat eating chicken breast with salad all the day are pretty much non existent. There are metabolic pathways that convert amino acids to fatty acids but again the chances of it happening are extremely low. I was talking more in general terms as I doubt many people are eating protein only. But sure if your diet was say 70% protein the chances of fat gain are going to be minimal and for people who exercise pretty much impossible. Like with anything there are many variables.

Thebigone I reread what I first posted and I apologize if he come off as a bit rude. I literally first read your post as you thinking you can only get fat from consuming fat. Definitely do the sipping of your shake though and making it last longer.

i tried slin for the first time recently. 15iu preworkout along with 5iu hgh and 50mg dbol. i ate a shit ton of carbs pre/intra/post and blew up and didnt gain any noticeable fat.

I read this as a complete joke but now I just don't know. Surely a joke? Sometimes on this forum the obvious answer is not the right one

EDIT- I need to read things more carefully (probably the pre workout in me ). I literally thought you were stating you used it 1 day and never noticed any fat gains. Sorry I will keep in my original post anyway. 15IU is a lot of slin for a 1st time user. Did you start at 15IU?

 

[sub7percent]

You can get fat eating an access in calories regardless of the macros. However the chances of getting fat eating chicken breast with salad all the day are pretty much non existent. There are metabolic pathways that convert amino acids to fatty acids but again the chances of it happening are extremely low. I was talking more in general terms as I doubt many people are eating protein only. But sure if your diet was say 70% protein the chances of fat gain are going to be minimal and for people who exercise pretty much impossible. Like with anything there are many variables.



Thebigone I reread what I first posted and I apologize if he come off as a bit rude. I literally first read your post as you thinking you can only get fat from consuming fat. Definitely do the sipping of your shake though and making it last longer.







I read this as a complete joke but now I just don't know. Surely a joke? Sometimes on this forum the obvious answer is not the right one



EDIT- I need to read things more carefully (probably the pre workout in me ). I literally thought you were stating you used it 1 day and never noticed any fat gains. Sorry I will keep in my original post anyway. 15IU is a lot of slin for a 1st time user. Did you start at 15IU?

Nah I started at 5 and worked up to 15. This was not humalog it was humulin-r, but after reading around it seems that IM usage of R has about the same window as humalog, maybe an hour longer or so.


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[Kag94]

Eat too much = fat gain
Regardless of whether or not your using insulin

My avi was the end of a bulk on 30iu slin and 950 crabs
SLOWLY gaining weight

Now I maintain around 4150cals... different times, different nutritional needs

 

[Gunsmith]

that makes sense.

I've used insulin several times as a bridge between cycles and never noticed and credible fat gain other than associated with coming off cycle and eating more.
BUT
I've always adjusted my insulin to my diet.
i think the guys decision to just bang 20iu insulin and take 100g crabs during and post workout then another 100 from food after are the ones that have issues with fat gain

 

[Kag94]

Slin should compliment your diet... not the other way around

Like you said ^^^ most just add in additional carbs to a higher than needed slin dose to compensate for lower bg... and they were already gaining!!!!

 

[Elvia1023]

that makes sense.

I've used insulin several times as a bridge between cycles and never noticed and credible fat gain other than associated with coming off cycle and eating more.
BUT
I've always adjusted my insulin to my diet.
i think the guys decision to just bang 20iu insulin and take 100g crabs during and post workout then another 100 from food after are the ones that have issues with fat gain

I actually have some humalog waiting for me in the UK. I go back soon so going to bring it back with me. I can't add any oral aas in like I planned (cholesterol) and I am keeping my aas the same so going to play about with slin, mk-677 and some GHRP-2. I am looking forward to adding it in as I haven't used humalog/novolog for ages.

I will probably only use about 5-8IU pre workout but I may add in a second dose some days. One of the best bodybuilders I know would have up to 8IU before every single meal of the day. A super effective method but only if used in burst cycles with the appropriate sensitivity supplements used in conjunction. Saying that he didn't use any supps just had breaks. I have never done anything like that but will probably experiment in the future with a similar protocol. I would be more sensible and do something like 4-5IU 4 times daily and have days off in the week.

 

[little slice]

One of the best bodybuilders I know would have up to 8IU before every single meal of the day.

even n off days?

 

[Elvia1023]

even n off days?

I used to chat to him quite a lot in the gym but haven't for ages. I haven't seen him for a very long time (moved away). When I asked him he said everyday and I asked about breaks and he said no but maybe on the w/e. He was more secretive about things so I never chatted to him that much about drugs. Like if I were to ask him a typical cycle he would just list what he used but not doses. I asked about doses and he just said it changes. In the UK most are fairly open about things but he wasn't.

Generally speaking I often find most of these guys just take large amounts of everything. But this system did intrigue me as he must of got it from a coach or another high level competitor. I say that because it's more planned and trust me if I were to say do you use metformin etc etc when on he wouldn't know what that was. I remember when he told me I said do you ever do larger doses and he said you can't... he said either coma or death. I think I said about about 15-20IU and that's when he replied coma or death. I tried to explain to him you wouldn't as long as you had enough carbs and that I knew many guys who said they had used 20IU humalog pre workout.

I think many often think a lot of good competitors are clued up but only the forum types. In my experience most of them don't have a clue they just take loads of everything (in the UK). That's why this approach stood out to me as even though it's very basic some thought and understanding had gone into it.

I may try something similar but much more sensible. 5IU 4 times per day with 2ml synthetine for 2 doses and on 4 days (training) per week. That looks really good to me. Still only 20IU per day 4 days per week so nothing ridiculous. Maybe I will up the dose around training but no higher than 8IU.

 

[Thebigone]

Thanks for the replies. Elvia i've never tried sipping the shake I always slam it. I was always under the impression of let's say I take 10iu humalog. I have about 15-30min to slam at least 100 fast acting carbs or I will go hypo. But now thinking about it when diabetics take insulin they could eat a regular meal with slow acting carbs and still not go hypo so maybe I'm better off slamming 70 g waxy maize 15min after the shot with whey and then sipping on the other 30 g intra work out with bcaa's. What I was mainly concerned on was the second Spike. 60-90 min later log will spike and if following the 5carb per iu rule then on 10iu slin you would want 50g carbs then. So what I'm getting at is let's say you had 75 g of carbs opposed to 50 so you are in excess of 25 carbs from the "rule." If you naturally can take 75carbs at that time frame not being on insulin and have no problem with it could there be a chance that it could be stored as fat since you are on Exogenesis insulin at the time? That's kind of what I'm getting at? Thanks