Jordan Peters & Mike Israetel - Reps In Reserve

[Flex500]

Don't mean to derail but along the lines of training I see upper/lower splits seem to be making more and more of an appearance and JP seems to favor them.

For those of you that like them how do you insert or program deads in to Upper/lower? Or, more precisely, where do you put them?

 

[qbkilla]

I do know layne Norton says doing dead on leg day. But not to do deads and squats, one or the other.

 

[HONGOGRIMES]

Mike completely monopolized that conversation. I kept waiting for Jordan to lay the smack down, but it didn’t happen. I didn’t find the podcast all that informative. It’s nothing that I’m sure many of us didn’t already know. Instagram is raving about it and I think it just makes them happy to have reassurance that they might still be able to make gains by pussing out on their sets.

Some interesting observations I’d like to comment on. I like that they discussed that some people just do not have what it takes to go to true failure. Weightlifting aside, some people are wired to do one of two things when their back is against the wall

1. Push forward
2. Retreat

Regarding recovery and burnout; Jordan discussed training partners not being able to keep up. He himself has consistently pushed his limits over the last 6 or 7 years. I remember reading old posts where he stated he was doing DC training and then he branched off and moved on to his own version of upper/lower and then push/pull/legs. If you look at these workouts from the past you can tell he wanted to see if he could maintain DC intensity at an even higher frequency.

This is very similar to the DC two-way split, with a day off between sessions and utilizing two straight work sets. July 2013
https://www.facebook.com/TrainedByJ...-split-is-so-damn-effective-/488128694606019/

This is the same concept, but now done over four days. April 2016
https://www.facebook.com/TrainedByJ...f-us-is-to-look-and-feel-goo/990945797657637/

Jordan was able to recover from this. Most people, including myself, could not. I know because I’ve tried. I learned the hard way why DC is a 3 day a week program and when I refer to recovery I’m talking about the nervous system. He then moved on to slightly increased volume push/pull/legs done on a 3 on 1 off rotation. So it’s clear that Jordan is advanced, but let’s define advanced. Is advanced time served in the gym? If so, then I’m advanced. Except I’m not. My physique and the weights I lift would be considered intermediate at best. I think advanced should encompass not only the genetics to build muscle better, but also to genetically have a nervous system that can recover better than most people. The argument for reps in reserve is to spare the nervous system while still maximally stimulating the muscle, but for some people they just might not get anywhere unless they redline. The best solution to this problem is a full day off between sessions. Big A’s and Dante’s programs implement that. Training three days a week is the best change I’ve made. Anyone with sleep issues should try taking two weeks completely off from the gym and then try a three day program when they return and monitor their sleep, mood, and progress.

My own experience with a reps in reserve based program was Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1. I ran it half a dozen times and it did not deliver the results I’d hoped for. The concept made sense to me; you initially start with weights lower than normal and over time the momentum of adding weight should induce gains. So in the initial weeks you will always make your rep and weight goals due to waving down and the sets being submaximal. However, it’s very frustrating when after months and months you finally come up to the workout where you’re supposed to be ahead of your initial starting point and you’re not. A waste of time. Mike’s approach is no different than Jim’s or a 5x5 program. Some 5x5’s entail doing the five sets with the same weight, so obviously the first three or four it’s guaranteed you’ll complete all reps as you are stopping at five reps regardless. I dislike how Mike came across like this stuff has never been discussed before when it’s been the basis of so many programs since the 1940’s.

Jordan posted on IG today a clip from that podcast and someone asked him if he’s going to train RIR. His response was that he cannot get any stronger, so he needs to drive volume to get bigger. Get bigger? I’m going to coin a new bodybuilding term here: he looks compressed. He is so huge and thick it looks like he’s going to explode in this picture. It seems he’s willing to accept he’s reached his own personal ceiling on strength development, but not on size. I think he should keep training the way he does, but either increase his reps or change their cadence. For example if he’s hack squatting every plate in the gym, maybe grab half the plates and spend 5 seconds in the bucket on each rep then work his way up in progression.

I like your look however I have a question for you, you say that many people can not adapt to the style of JP, but if they can not adapt to a style like that (only 2 straight sets per group) to which training could it be adapted?

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I like your look however I have a question for you, you say that many people can not adapt to the style of JP, but if they can not adapt to a style like that (only 2 straight sets per group) to which training could it be adapted?

He means 2 ALL OUT INTENSE sets. Not just..2 regular old sets.
Some people just don't like the uncomfortable feeling of pushing everything to the absolute max and know that this lift is treated like life or death. For those people, 3-4 sets of 85% probably work better and are suited for them.

 

[MR. BMJ]

I think all these training philosophies and plans will work for most, but everybody just needs to find the right fit for themselves. I'd have to also add in Dr. Scott Stevenson into this mix, and his training philosophies.

I always fall back on DC Training personally, but there are times when i'm just mentally exhausted and can't put in 100%, so a variation or different scheme for that day is used. I think I seen Dusty Hanshaw talking about how he will also do the same if needed.

All these guys are real smart dudes with a lot of training experience...some geared toward more specific populations.

 

[Elvia1023]

Obviously the key is finding what works for you. Experiment and see for yourself. I think all this training stuff has become a bit of a joke in recent years. It's really simple and most of it is just because guys get bored so it keeps things fresh. Reinventing the wheel comes to mind but if you can make things as optimal as possible then great and everyone should always be trying to improve their training.

I have ripped into Hany in the past as I think a lot of those big name guru's are lucky in a sense and not doing anything special with clients. However I do like the way he trains his athletes a lot. Some useful techniques and a balanced approach. Although as with everything some guys go on about it like it's some magic pill when they could get very similar results training a variety of ways.

 

[Marky Boy]

Obviously the key is finding what works for you. Experiment and see for yourself. I think all this training stuff has become a bit of a joke in recent years. It's really simple and most of it is just because guys get bored so it keeps things fresh. Reinventing the wheel comes to mind but if you can make things as optimal as possible then great and everyone should always be trying to improve their training.

I have ripped into Hany in the past as I think a lot of those big name guru's are lucky in a sense and not doing anything special with clients. However I do like the way he trains his athletes a lot. Some useful techniques and a balanced approach. Although as with everything some guys go on about it like it's some magic pill when they could get very similar results training a variety of ways.

Agreed. Too many folk trying to claim their own name on a training routine. Most of it is to sell a fucking e-book.

How many training methods has jordan made up, made an e-book then a week later ditched that training “ style “ it’s a joke lmao. But his little following all buy into it while he makes a fuck ton of money off them.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Agreed. Too many folk trying to claim their own name on a training routine. Most of it is to sell a fucking e-book.

How many training methods has jordan made up, made an e-book then a week later ditched that training “ style “ it’s a joke lmao. But his little following all buy into it while he makes a fuck ton of money off them.

Um...none? He made 1 ebook based on a upper/lower split.
He used that split for the last 10 weeks of a prep and everyone asked him to share it, so he did.

Such random, non-warranted hate on Jordan on here. Name another guy in the past 5-10 years who has changed the way people train more than him. He and Dr. Scott led a rebirth in DC-like training popularity again.

 

[Landmonster]

I'm a bit confused by the JP stuff.

The programs he posts seems to change over time. That is natural, I suppose.


Can anyone who is familiar with JPs current thoughts in 2019 just distill it down in a few sentences to summarize?

Is it still push/pull/legs? Upper/lower? How many days of rest per week, etc?

Is he still anti body-part split? If so, how does he reconcile that with the idea that nearly every IFBB guy recommends body-part splits?

 

[FK86]

I like your look however I have a question for you, you say that many people can not adapt to the style of JP, but if they can not adapt to a style like that (only 2 straight sets per group) to which training could it be adapted?

I can’t recommend anything as I’m just some guy posting on a forum

He means 2 ALL OUT INTENSE sets. Not just..2 regular old sets. Some people just don't like the uncomfortable feeling of pushing everything to the absolute max and know that this lift is treated like life or death. For those people, 3-4 sets of 85% probably work better and are suited for them.

Exactly. Some people can’t push past that final barrier. For example, my shoulder exercise in my A2 workout today was Freemotion shoulder presses, which is a cable shoulder press. My final reps on my rest-pause set involved getting stuck in the mid-range for several seconds before grinding it to the top. Once the eccentric of those reps are complete, I can’t even budge the weight an inch. I mind my own business at the gym, but sometimes I glance around in between sets and I’ve yet to see anyone else going that far. The reason I mention this is that sometimes people refer to failure as technical failure; when their form starts to break, they end the set. I do not believe in this. Why is your form breaking? If I do a set of 16 reps, rep 1 and rep 16 are identical, but rep 16 is a much slower cadence, naturally. In the shoulder presses I just mentioned I’m not moving around in the seat or putting my arms out of alignment to get the rep. I’m just plain stuck briefly and I know I’ll get it if I redline.

As far as JPs program style, I made the best gains in my life running his style. If u cannot do this, you don’t have recovery abilities. Simple as that.

I agree for the most part. We also must take into consideration that there is recovery of the muscles and recovery of the nervous system and that the two are usually not in sync. My muscles recover fast, my nervous system does not, which is ironic because I rarely get sick and have no health issues. The fact that the two differ will impact on how frequent a person can train. Below when I talk about recovery I will be referring to the nervous system. This is how I would have to do things in various programs:

DC Two-way split: M/W/F that’s how it is anyway, but I can only handle this three days per week. I bring this up because occasionally, someone will come onto the boards and talk about how it was done four days per week in the CFP thread from ’99. There’s a reason it was modified. Dante himself said once more and more people took on the program it was evident the majority needed a day off between sessions. Very rare individuals like BrooklynJuice were able to do it four days a week. Jordan probably could too.

Upper/Lower done Jordan’s way: Very similar to the above, but rest-pauses are replaced with straight sets. The idea is to do it four days per week. Tried it and I would still need the day off between sessions. Programming is important when leg exercises are the day after back exercises, but even leg presses the day after t-bar rows can be too much. Heavy back exercises in the same session with chest and shoulders are what make upper sessions so taxing and why leg work the following day would be difficult to handle.

Push/Pull/Legs done Jordan’s way: I can handle these workouts of 6-8 sets for large muscle groups and 4-6 sets for smaller muscle groups, but not at the 3 on/1 off frequency. I would have to do it 2 on/1 off/2 on/2 off or M/W/F. The volume of sets in these programs is the same as Dorian’s workouts from ’87-‘92

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=161570053&page=1

If you scroll further down you can see Dorian had his own two-way split he used for a few years before advancing to this and then finally to his Blood and Guts during his Olympia reign. Jordan took a similar approach to Yates; very calculated and experimenting. They were both able to handle their modifications and continue to progress. They both ended up with physiques that required specialized work. The hard truth is that most of us will never have that “problem.”

As for reps in reserve, here’s who that worked for: Arnold, Haney, Levrone, Ray, Dillet, Wheeler, Priest, Cutler etc etc. All the people who anything would have worked for. The whole point of the low volume, intensity-based programs was to provide a solution for all the people that took up training, but weren’t getting results training like other people who seemed to get huge just walking through the gym door. For normal people it takes damn hard work to fight off homeostasis.

 

[FK86]

I'm a bit confused by the JP stuff.

The programs he posts seems to change over time. That is natural, I suppose.


Can anyone who is familiar with JPs current thoughts in 2019 just distill it down in a few sentences to summarize?

Is it still push/pull/legs? Upper/lower? How many days of rest per week, etc?

Is he still anti body-part split? If so, how does he reconcile that with the idea that nearly every IFBB guy recommends body-part splits?

In short, the program evolves as the individual does. You earn your way to the body part splits. I agree with him that most will likely never get past intermediate and should focus on very basic routines.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw-TmsjhAaZ/?hl=en

 

[xjpx]

Agreed. Too many folk trying to claim their own name on a training routine. Most of it is to sell a fucking e-book.

How many training methods has jordan made up, made an e-book then a week later ditched that training “ style “ it’s a joke lmao. But his little following all buy into it while he makes a fuck ton of money off them.

LOL , I have had one ebook for sale , since 2015 . Just one ... I took any of mine off in 2014 when I realised what others were doing and going ebook crazy. Rir is something I would NEVER sell, advise, or pass opinion on, as I have no idea it’s capabilities. Your post is so strange, it’s like you have legit made up a scenario in your head that doesn’t exist, i have trained the same way since forever. Anyways back to the topic.

So I defo can’t get any stronger to any real extent , 1.25s here and there just aren’t going to illicit any real change now, but mentally I’m defo not done yet trying to grow more. So with an rir approach , let’s use 4 sets as an example , I would use the same weight I currently lift for that given rep range but my goal is to say get as many reps as I can across 4 sets , if you absolutely bury yourself in set 1 , you can’t even really work the same rep range well again set 2 - this is where I started doing load and back off sets a long while ago.
On smaller moves it would be 3 sets as would load, then go heavier then back off. But let’s stick on the same weight across all 4 sets , if set 1 was 4 or 3 rir , set 2 was 3/2 rir , set 3 2/1 rir set 4 1/0 rir, you could probably nail the same reps each set , so let’s say 100 x 10/10/10/10 , 40 x 100 - total work is 40,000. You can’t accumulate that work if go 0 rir , it would be : 14/11/7/5 something like that so 37 , BUT with a shit load more fatigue which makes that approach unsustainable. So I will still do heavy work, still do work at 0/1rir , but just see how much work I can accumulate and see if that can grow more. Maybe it can , maybe I need those effective 0 rir reps always and there is something about them which has brought about the muscle.

 

[bonacris]

Agreed. Too many folk trying to claim their own name on a training routine. Most of it is to sell a fucking e-book.

How many training methods has jordan made up, made an e-book then a week later ditched that training “ style “ it’s a joke lmao. But his little following all buy into it while he makes a fuck ton of money off them.

Are you the Mark who was pushing Gh on JPs forum? I havent seen you around in a while so i assume you got banned and are bitter toward him? Would explain the hate

 

[xjpx]

Are you the Mark who was pushing Gh on JPs forum? I havent seen you around in a while so i assume you got banned and are bitter toward him? Would explain the hate

I don’t think it’s the same chap. We did ban that other guy though

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

thats the one picture Mike puts up and thats the best hes ever looked in his life.

I understand that he is in OK shape but when he made a comment about, "guys like u and me to JP" i laughed out loud. The problem with Mike is that he has never trained anyone notable either. Hes better for the regular joe. JP is a monster...and u cant even put Lyle into that category because Lyle was an early science guy and never talked gear. Lyle never claimed to be discussing things that relate to big BBers....for some reason Mike does and it annoys me hah

Video from today. This guy is ostensibly doing everything right, yet he looks like that. There is no way around genetics. Ronnie Coleman, Jay Cutler, and Dorian Yates all used vastly different training methods, yet all of them reached a similar level. Pretty much any training regimen works if you have the right genetics.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't an optimal method for normal/average people. in order to figure that out, we need to rely on science, on (imperfect) experimental studies and on theoretical reasoning based on what we know about human physiology. That's exactly what Mike is doing, and he's doing it well. Yes, he doesn't look that impressive, but that doesn't mean that his training methods, and the reasoning they are based upon, are wrong.

 

[xjpx]

As you guys know, Dr Scott is my go to. I have said many times that Scott is the one, when it comes to merging the science with the practicality , and we spoke a bit in brief last night ( Scott messaging me to make sure I don’t fuck up
And go full 3 rir for life haha) , and he liked the idea of potentially using a 4-3-2-1 or 3-2-1-0 approach to accumulate volume.
It’s been a while since we did a podcast so that would be fun to do, to discuss some stuff and get Scott’s insight into what maybe someone can do when they have reached terminal strength.

I totally agree that many guys will reach a level on any programme , but I don’t think I’m one of them, I have had to use a fair whack of gear, insulin, food, train like a lunatic , so I’m always looking for ways to optimise things , because I feel I have to. If I stopped training I would go from like 280
To 200 pounds basically overnight lol. So this type of discussion is fascinating . The people that think this type of discussion is re inventing the wheel, I pity your narrow mindedness

 

[Elvia1023]

I personally love talking training. I was just commenting on one post I saw about Hany. So my post in this thread was mainly about Hany but I also think some overcomplicate this stuff at times. I didn't even know what the thread was about when I commented. It's obvious to see what bb's are putting out quality content so it should go without stating. I couldn't care less how many ebooks someone does if they add value then great. Obviously it's a joke on IG and people not even writing them selling them for next to nothing because even if 1% of their 3 million followers (Jeremy Buendia comes to mind) buys one they have cashed in. The same for the personal training done by a company with guys thinking is Kai Greene training me for $100 Obviously nothing to do with this thread as JP puts out quality content.

It's entirely different if you are very advanced and you are trying to squeeze the last few drops of gains possible. There are always optimal ways of doing things so anyone serious about training should be trying to find those. However you get non advanced guys totally bypassing the basics and overcomplicating training but the same can be said with drugs and diet as well. JP I tried to pm you about something else but your pm box is full.

My current split now just as I get back into things is push, pull, legs with abs and calves put in whenever I feel like it. Last rotation calves were just in pull day but the one before on leg and push day. Not set frequency and just listening to my body so I take breaks when needed but I should be in the gym 4-5 days per week. I will move over to something more specialized in time though. You can't go wrong with something like P/P/L though. The key is just finding what volume and frequency works for you in that given template then of course exercise execution, intensity, selection etc.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

As you guys know, Dr Scott is my go to. I have said many times that Scott is the one, when it comes to merging the science with the practicality , and we spoke a bit in brief last night ( Scott messaging me to make sure I don’t fuck up
And go full 3 rir for life haha) , and he liked the idea of potentially using a 4-3-2-1 or 3-2-1-0 approach to accumulate volume.
It’s been a while since we did a podcast so that would be fun to do, to discuss some stuff and get Scott’s insight into what maybe someone can do when they have reached terminal strength.

I totally agree that many guys will reach a level on any programme , but I don’t think I’m one of them, I have had to use a fair whack of gear, insulin, food, train like a lunatic , so I’m always looking for ways to optimise things , because I feel I have to. If I stopped training I would go from like 280
To 200 pounds basically overnight lol. So this type of discussion is fascinating . The people that think this type of discussion is re inventing the wheel, I pity your narrow mindedness

I like that idea. Instead of varying RIR between workouts (as in Mike's periodization scheme), you can also vary RIR within the workout.

Periodization does offer some additional benefits though. There are some other interesting ways to generate growth. Take for example a Milos style carb loading workout, with crazy amounts of insulin, carbs, and very high rep, high volume sessions. Clearly not something you want to do every session of the year. But to throw that in maybe once a month for a week might offer some additional benefits.

EDIT: Just for clarity, I was referring to this idea:

On smaller moves it would be 3 sets as would load, then go heavier then back off. But let’s stick on the same weight across all 4 sets , if set 1 was 4 or 3 rir , set 2 was 3/2 rir , set 3 2/1 rir set 4 1/0 rir, you could probably nail the same reps each set , so let’s say 100 x 10/10/10/10 , 40 x 100 - total work is 40,000. You can’t accumulate that work if go 0 rir , it would be : 14/11/7/5 something like that so 37 , BUT with a shit load more fatigue which makes that approach unsustainable.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I'm a bit confused by the JP stuff.

The programs he posts seems to change over time. That is natural, I suppose.

This point above is the truest statement of all.
If your mind is 1000% made up 1 way and 1 way only, then you will never progress and will be stuck in your way.

I appreciate guys like Mike and Jordan because they are not afraid to say, "you know what, I don't know...maybe I'll try this way." THAT RIGHT THERE is the sign of an intelligent person. The fact that they understand that theories change and evolve and that can be beneficial is magnificent.

I only WISH more politicians thought this way rather than sticking to their guns. Everyone gets their panties in such a bunch when someone's thought process is evolving..."but you said! you flip-flopped!" Yeah no shit. That's a sign of self awareness and growth!

 

[bonacris]

This point above is the truest statement of all.
If your mind is 1000% made up 1 way and 1 way only, then you will never progress and will be stuck in your way.

I appreciate guys like Mike and Jordan because they are not afraid to say, "you know what, I don't know...maybe I'll try this way." THAT RIGHT THERE is the sign of an intelligent person. The fact that they understand that theories change and evolve and that can be beneficial is magnificent.

I only WISH more politicians thought this way rather than sticking to their guns. Everyone gets their panties in such a bunch when someone's thought process is evolving..."but you said! you flip-flopped!" Yeah no shit. That's a sign of self awareness and growth!

I wish more people would say this. there is nothing wrong with saying " I dont know but let me get back to you" Sign of maturity and self confidence.