Does higher hormone use causing a faster aging face ?

[epoxy]

Estrogen deficiency is why women dry out like prunes after menopause. They lose something like 30% skin collagen in the first 5 years of menopause. (Due to estradiol deficiency). This has been proven to be stopped and reversed by HRT. (Estradiol replacement). Low E2 also leads to weight gain (male fat pattern /beer belly) , hair loss/thinning, loss of libido and all the shitty parts of getting old as a woman. ( All preventable with good HRT)


E2 is essential for skin health, hair health amd cardiovascular health. ( among other things like neurological health, wellbeing ; dopamine/serotonin, etc).

I know, as someone who had gyno early on and absolutely decimated my E2 with Letro trying to reverse something that was never going to happen. Ended up having surgery and that did it, but in the mean time I wrecked my hairline and it was thinning a lot. Ended up getting FUE, fixed that, never used another AI. My hair is thicker than when I was 20 and I don't use Rogaine or any of that BS.

 

[Black Beard]

I know, as someone who had gyno early on and absolutely decimated my E2 with Letro trying to reverse something that was never going to happen. Ended up having surgery and that did it, but in the mean time I wrecked my hairline and it was thinning a lot. Ended up getting FUE, fixed that, never used another AI. My hair is thicker than when I was 20 and I don't use Rogaine or any of that BS.

Yeah, it's sad that the "letro for gyno" thing was so prevalent back in the day. Now we can use SERMs like ralox which are extremely anti-estrogenic in the breast but estrogenic in other tissues like bone.

 

[Brock456]

I know, as someone who had gyno early on and absolutely decimated my E2 with Letro trying to reverse something that was never going to happen. Ended up having surgery and that did it, but in the mean time I wrecked my hairline and it was thinning a lot. Ended up getting FUE, fixed that, never used another AI. My hair is thicker than when I was 20 and I don't use Rogaine or any of that BS.

Where did you get the FUE and how much?

 

[nothuman]

Great question. There are benefits to GH that are independent of IGF-1 and when using exogenous HGH you get a spike in FFA (Free fatty acids) that you don't get with endogenous GH (unless you are sleeping).

It's up for debate, but the fact that the body responds to exogenous GH (with benefits like fat loss/nitrogen retention) even in the setting of both high and low IGF-1 ( i.e. tren user for the latter and someone with 300 igf-1 baseline for the former) it would seem there MAY be a benefit . ( big maybe)

The liver in that person might just genetically produce higher IGF without the concomitant high GH level , so we might still see a benefit from that big exogenous GH spike.

I like to keep things as simple & practical as possible. If i'm that guy with natural 300s igf-1, i would experiment with varying dosages of HGH and track benefits/sides/etc. (maybe 3-6 IU to start)


It should be quickly obvious if exogenous HGH imparts benefit to that person. (increased pump/hardness from nitrogen / easier low body fat maintenance / wellbeing, etc). If none or minimal benefits noticed, then don't take it.

So I'm one of those rare people with an IGF around 300. For whatever reason, testosterone (TRT dose) raises mine by quite a substantial amount. For others, TRT doesn't really raise theirs. I started up with just 1iu of HGH again 2 1/2 months ago and have significantly increased vascularity and am about 5-8lbs heavier than on only TRT. Surprised just 1iu has this effect on me. I will be getting my IGF1 checked next month to see if it's up even more.

 

[epoxy]

Where did you get the FUE and how much?

SC. Carolina Hair Surgery. 10K. Fully restored my receding hairline.

 

[Black Beard]

So I'm one of those rare people with an IGF around 300. For whatever reason, testosterone (TRT dose) raises mine by quite a substantial amount. For others, TRT doesn't really raise theirs. I started up with just 1iu of HGH again 2 1/2 months ago and have significantly increased vascularity and am about 5-8lbs heavier than on only TRT. Surprised just 1iu has this effect on me. I will be getting my IGF1 checked next month to see if it's up even more.

When you take under 2 IU, sometimes it just adds to your endogenous production. (Same thing happens with lower doses of T4)

 

[nothuman]

When you take under 2 IU, sometimes it just adds to your endogenous production. (Same thing happens with lower doses of T4)

Yup that’s my goal.

Btw off topic but since you mentioned it, I bumped up my T4 to 150mcg 1.5 weeks ago, I’ve been feeling much much better.

 

[Black Beard]

Yup that’s my goal.

Btw off topic but since you mentioned it, I bumped up my T4 to 150mcg 1.5 weeks ago, I’ve been feeling much much better.

Awesome to hear that, keep me posted brother

 

[jcc80]

Yup that’s my goal.

Btw off topic but since you mentioned it, I bumped up my T4 to 150mcg 1.5 weeks ago, I’ve been feeling much much better.

Weren't you doing t3 only due to high rt3 levels? Interested in the topic because my wife is on armour thyroid, plus a baby dose of t3 to drive down rt3.

 

[Black Beard]

Weren't you doing t3 only due to high rt3 levels? Interested in the topic because my wife is on armour thyroid, plus a baby dose of t3 to drive down rt3.

NDT+T3 is one of the worst possible protocols. You will often induce hyperthyroidism in some tissues and hypothyroidism in others. When people run into problems, the stop the thyroid madness blog pins the issues o "cortisol and iron levels" which is horseshit.


Reverse T3 is not biologically active and does NOT block T3 receptors. (A popular internet myth). Focusing on reverse T3 is similar to how some hyper-focus on SHBG when trying to dial in TRT when it's really not that big of a deal. You end up missing the forest for the trees. Trying to keep RT3 low is a recipe for not getting optimized.


You want to bring Free T4 into the true normal range found in people with healthy thyroid. Taking NDT/T3 sharply drops your endogenous production of both T4 and T3. So you end up needing very high doses which end up making you hyper and hypo (To achieve True "Euthyroid" status AKA normal healthy levels of T4 and T3 in tissues/cells, you primarily need T4 and sometimes a little T3. )

 

[nothuman]

Weren't you doing t3 only due to high rt3 levels? Interested in the topic because my wife is on armour thyroid, plus a baby dose of t3 to drive down rt3.

Sure was. Every time I seemed to feel better, it would be temporary and then all the symptoms would return. I was constantly managing my dose and nothing seemed to work long term.

So I decided to finally give T4 a shot and to my surprise, it made me feel better instead of worse. Now I belong to the rT3 is useless camp when I used to think it was important.

It's too premature to declare victory yet and I expect to continue to play around with the dosing, but I am on the right track. 150mcg T4 and 6.25mcg T3

 

[nothuman]

@jcc80 this podcast episode really resonated with me

‎Docs Who Lift: The ultimate guide to hypothyroidism testing on Apple Podcasts

‎Show Docs Who Lift, Ep The ultimate guide to hypothyroidism testing - Aug 8, 2022

podcasts.apple.com

 

[RandomMachine]

Sure was. Every time I seemed to feel better, it would be temporary and then all the symptoms would return. I was constantly managing my dose and nothing seemed to work long term.

So I decided to finally give T4 a shot and to my surprise, it made me feel better instead of worse. Now I belong to the rT3 is useless camp when I used to think it was important.

It's too premature to declare victory yet and I expect to continue to play around with the dosing, but I am on the right track. 150mcg T4 and 6.25mcg T3

I had very little noticeable difference in my blood work regarding free T3 using 12.5/100 T3/T4 and 0/100

FT3
2.9 on 12.5/100
2.8 on 0/100

Range 2.3-4.2

 

[jcc80]

NDT+T3 is one of the worst possible protocols. You will often induce hyperthyroidism in some tissues and hypothyroidism in others. When people run into problems, the stop the thyroid madness blog pins the issues o "cortisol and iron levels" which is horseshit.


Reverse T3 is not biologically active and does NOT block T3 receptors. (A popular internet myth). Focusing on reverse T3 is similar to how some hyper-focus on SHBG when trying to dial in TRT when it's really not that big of a deal. You end up missing the forest for the trees. Trying to keep RT3 low is a recipe for not getting optimized.


You want to bring Free T4 into the true normal range found in people with healthy thyroid. Taking NDT/T3 sharply drops your endogenous production of both T4 and T3. So you end up needing very high doses which end up making you hyper and hypo (To achieve True "Euthyroid" status AKA normal healthy levels of T4 and T3 in tissues/cells, you primarily need T4 and sometimes a little T3. )

Gotcha. Her thyroid is non functional after a bout with thyroid cancer many years ago, and she will be on thyroid for life.

This protocol has her ft4 at 0.9 and ft3 at 3.7. TSH slightly low at 0.35. Do you see any red flags here?

 

[nothuman]

I had very little noticeable difference in my blood work regarding free T3 using 12.5/100 T3/T4 and 0/100

FT3
2.9 on 12.5/100
2.8 on 0/100

Range 2.3-4.2

Yea I am not too surprised. If you took the T3 in the morning, the dose might be out of your system 24 hours later when you took the blood test

 

[Black Beard]

Gotcha. Her thyroid is non functional after a bout with thyroid cancer many years ago, and she will be on thyroid for life.

This protocol has her ft4 at 0.9 and ft3 at 3.7. TSH slightly low at 0.35. Do you see any red flags here?

0.9 Free T4 is hypothyroid.


Free T4 to 1.4-1.8 ng/dL, that's where a healthy thyroid puts most people.

What is her NDT and T3 dosage? How does she feel? Any symptoms ?


Healthy thyroid makes 100 mcg T4 daily, so NDT amd T3 do not meet that requirement (unless you take very high dose NDT)

 

[Black Beard]

Sure was. Every time I seemed to feel better, it would be temporary and then all the symptoms would return. I was constantly managing my dose and nothing seemed to work long term.

So I decided to finally give T4 a shot and to my surprise, it made me feel better instead of worse. Now I belong to the rT3 is useless camp when I used to think it was important.

It's too premature to declare victory yet and I expect to continue to play around with the dosing, but I am on the right track. 150mcg T4 and 6.25mcg T3

100%


Generally, most people feel best with 100-200 mcg T4 and 0-10 mcg T3. Which legit just about mimics the physiological production rate.


NDT does not have a human T4/T3 ratio as animals tend to produce less T4 and more T3 than humans.

 

[Keefs]

I know it happens. I've seen a recent Justin Compton video podcast and he has some serious lines going down his face. Dorian has them, and had them even when he competed , and he retired at thirty six years old. Seems Caucasian people have them most. I see some of it on female bodybuilders although no way as pronounced as male bodybuilders.

Is this dose dependent? Or is it certain compounds like stuff that aromatizes does this, or even high dose deca ?

I could stay on longer and a lower dose but I like to taper up, maybe use max dose at most for five weeks , taper down a couple or few weeks then go down to true trt.

As a amature competitor, heavyweight, possibly even super heavyweight ,on stage, I noticed this past cycle I went as high as 1200 mgs, my mom started to comment on my face around nose down around mouth looking puffy. She mentioned it quite a bit. Been on trt last two months and it's gone down. About to start maybe 600 mgs two weeks on a minimum cut, then go up to 900, 1200, and maybe 1500 if I can handle it. I don't want to lose my good facial looks and age my face .

I think there are a lot of things that can contribute to what you’re talking about. I’m not 100 percent sure what you mean by lines going down their face but a few years ago I noticed a couple of lines on my face and quickly figured out it was from my sleeping position. I’ve changed that up and the lines have pretty much disappeared now. I’m also in my mid forties and I think my skin has just become more susceptible to things like that. Recently I’ve started using the strongest OTC retinol cream I could find just to help with my skin. I can only tolerate applying it a few nights a week right now. Moisturizing has also helped a lot. I still think diet is the most important factor but sleep wrinkles can definitely make you look ugly too!

 

[jcc80]

0.9 Free T4 is hypothyroid.


Free T4 to 1.4-1.8 ng/dL, that's where a healthy thyroid puts most people.

What is her NDT and T3 dosage? How does she feel? Any symptoms ?


Healthy thyroid makes 100 mcg T4 daily, so NDT amd T3 do not meet that requirement (unless you take very high dose NDT)

I think 2 grains ndt and 5mcg T3. She has hashimotos, if that makes a difference. She feels light years better than the days of t4 only, but I'm sure there is room for improvement.

 

[Keefs]

I know, as someone who had gyno early on and absolutely decimated my E2 with Letro trying to reverse something that was never going to happen. Ended up having surgery and that did it, but in the mean time I wrecked my hairline and it was thinning a lot. Ended up getting FUE, fixed that, never used another AI. My hair is thicker than when I was 20 and I don't use Rogaine or any of that BS.

I did the same thing! I tried to reverse that shit with letro! Crashed my estrogen for a while and it seemed to get smaller but as soon as I came off of it, it came right back. I had the gyno surgery and I remember the nurse saying it really didn’t look like I needed it, but when they took it out there was a lot more in there than she thought. I was like yeah that’s because it was cold in the room when you guys first examined me and it’s not as visible when my nips are cold! I also remember having a severe case of telogen effluvium around the time I took letro. I could not for the life of me figure out what caused it. I had ran some eq a little before it happened so I always blamed that and never used it again. Luckily my hair came back on its own but maybe it was the letro.