Androgen Receptor sensitivity

[Yousef12O2]

this is "PROFESSIONAL MUSCLE" so we never mean natural people

of course lol if anybody here thinks a markus ruhl or a big ramy can be built be 500mgs of test and 300mgs primo and 1 iu gh then i don't know what to tell you. Even if they are genetic freaks why nobody in the 70s and 80s was 300lbs on stage? It's not genetics look at sergio oliva and his son. Lee and Hunter Labrada too.

 

[Type-IIx]

i got ya.
i agree for sure with what you say at the top.
i think also that ppl get wrapped up in paper ideas and or ideologies rather then voices of experience. experience i think has merit.

the basic idea of this started as someone asking how to make ar recptor more sensitive. thats a hard thing to prove in real world humans.
what the idea is is to be able to get more results from less gear.
do we agree on this?

No, you don't agree. Androgen receptor sensitivity is a concrete, well hashed out, not at all nebulous or hypothetical, concept. You just don't seem to understand it.

i basically have done some form of blast cruise for the last 20 years.
i used to live on 1.5-2g gear. at some point i pushed it ran more then 6g, there were years were 3g or so was normal.
when i was doing that i just figured well i have shit genetics and dont respond well to gear.

yes you get more fake sort of results with more gear. when i say fake i mean swell which is water, creatine etc. thats not real muscle and drops as you drop the dose. so yes more drugs = bigger you but someone who dropped the gear and pushed the training and diet to make more real muscle then went back to heavier doses would probably get a better result then the same guy just pushing doses in the same time.

at some point i realized what i was doing was stupid and looked for better ways.
what im saying here was part of that.

to the debate of what may make receptors more sensitive. no one can really answer with truth. we would need a way to study an individual before and after. law and technology dont really provide that option.

Yeah, science definitely fucking proves what makes AR more sensitive, despite your not knowing about it, or probably, being able to (apparently) understand it.

It's OK bro, I don't understand particle physics.

often it seems that when we have more of a substance then the body can use it seems to upregulate. saying the receptor of whatever you like is constantly engaged or blocked with the active. so the body may compensate generating more receptors on the cell. trying to compensate for being perpetually occupied. MAY. stopping whatever drug or substance you are using to fill those receptors will mean that they are no longer blocked. the cell MAY once the drugs clear mantain the new number of recptors.

this isnt just with test or the ar.
cells are constantly changing or mutating due to the chemical environment we create.

maybe by pushing high doses for extended times then backing off we can take advantage of that.

i cant say for sure.
but i do try this with various drugs.
i cant tell you if it works or not.

what i can tell you is i now use doses of aas and get results that 10+ years ago i would say is bs.
not proof. one persons anecdotal experience.

Not readin that essay, just seems like more "I don't understand something therefore it cannot be proven" or something.

 

[Type-IIx]

of course lol if anybody here thinks a markus ruhl or a big ramy can be built be 500mgs of test and 300mgs primo and 1 iu gh then i don't know what to tell you. Even if they are genetic freaks why nobody in the 70s and 80s was 300lbs on stage? It's not genetics look at sergio oliva and his son. Lee and Hunter Labrada too.

It's partly genetics though. I bet ya they're running, to peak for the Olympia, less than luki blasts for months out of the year. Because they are world level talents.

 

[aHarness]

No, you don't agree. Androgen receptor sensitivity is a concrete, well hashed out, not at all nebulous or hypothetical, concept. You just don't seem to understand it.

Yeah, science definitely fucking proves what makes AR more sensitive, despite your not knowing about it, or probably, being able to (apparently) understand it.

It's OK bro, I don't understand particle physics.

Not readin that essay, just seems like more "I don't understand something therefore it cannot be proven" or something.

Yeah I’ve just given up

 

[Type-IIx]

But what about bodyweight?

Do we need higher doses as our bodyweight increases?

Yep, because concentrations (mg/mL) depend on volume (1 mL = 1 cm³), such that the more mass that you hold, the higher the dose needed to reach a given (e.g., blood) concentration.

Then, too, skeletal muscle contains AR that we care about for these concentrations to activate. Muscle mass is related to dose (mg/mL) in the same manner.

The primary manner of AR regulation that occurs by AAS dose is an increased translational capacity, meaning that ribosome number increases, the μg RNA/mg muscle increases (increased ribosomal density), in turn, increasing the absolute rate of translation of AR proteins for every kg of muscle you carry. But this increase in AR # is far from exponential like the increase to requirements for doses to hit a given concentration as you gain mass (for changes in body or muscle mass vs. AAS dose needed to maintain a given concentration, think a plot or graph of y = X³), rather this increase is merely logarithmic (think a plot or graph of y = log(X)).

To illustrate, visualize the degree of change needed in mg dose of AAS per mL (volume) of your 3-dimensional muscle mass as you grow as the green curve below. Visualize the rate of increase in AR number per mg increase in mg dose of AAS as the purple curve below:

 

[Type-IIx]

I still see the wrong comparisons being made (stims, narcotics) but the AR and its ligans are not subject to tachyphylaxis, so no need for increasing doses to elicit the same effect with subsequent administrations.

People misunderstand the basic economics of street drugs vs. AAS. The most profitable drug trade is heroin, followed by cocaine, and somewhere growing on that list is methamphetamine globally. These drugs are subject to remarkable tachyphylaxis. That's primarily why they are so profitable, by demanding high prices and an insatiable demand, that provides a customer virtually for life, that becomes ill without a constant daily supply, until they die very young. This is why dealers of these drugs deserve the death penalty (IMO).

AAS are not comparable just because they are illegal in the US. By comparison, we are a tiny market, but since we live longer, can provide a very stable source of income for dealers, with less moral qualms, and probably less scrutiny from law enforcement, some grey market chemical manufacturers, and certainly some criminal groups will diversify into AAS.

The FDA objected, actually, to their being criminalized as I understand it because of this very reason; as well as posing risks for those prescribed them for illnesses or disorders.

 

[Bloodtrail]

I was excited to see this thread posted and have been following it closely.
I ended my cut at 218.7 and decided to come off everything except for 3iu tp black tops. My last pin was 7 sep. the second picture was taken this morning 12 weeks off. Weight is currently 223.8. I got bloodwork done at 10.5 weeks off. All bloodwork came back green except hematocrit. My test came back 98 total 22.8 free lol.
I was on 1.5g for the last 14 months and last 7 weeks close to 2g and up to 100 clen.

I decided to do this for my own experiment. Looking forward to starting this bulk Monday

 

[LK3]

No, you don't agree. Androgen receptor sensitivity is a concrete, well hashed out, not at all nebulous or hypothetical, concept. You just don't seem to understand it.

Yeah, science definitely fucking proves what makes AR more sensitive, despite your not knowing about it, or probably, being able to (apparently) understand it.

It's OK bro, I don't understand particle physics.

Not readin that essay, just seems like more "I don't understand something therefore it cannot be proven" or something.

super useful post bro!
lol
rather then telling me what you think i know and what you think i dont why dont you tell us how science can measure the sensitivity of the ar in an actual human at one time then show how it changed down the line.

 

[Type-IIx]

super useful post bro!
lol
rather then telling me what you think i know and what you think i dont why dont you tell us how science can measure the sensitivity of the ar in an actual human at one time then show how it changed down the line.

OK.


From biopsied human muscle.


Results showing that 200 mg testosterone enanthate weekly in military men following a voluminous mostly aerobic-endurance training program and in a severe caloric deficit (> 55% kcal) recomped, simultaneously building new muscle and losing fat with increased LBM and decreased fat mass. 1.6 g/kg protein, 30% macros from fat, severe caloric restriction (55% energy deficit) for 28 days.

Howard, E. E., Margolis, L. M., Berryman, C. E., Lieberman, H. R., Karl, J. P., Young, A. J., … Pasiakos, S. M. (2020). Testosterone supplementation upregulates androgen receptor expression and translational capacity during severe energy deficit. American Journal of Physiology-Endocrinology and Metabolism, 319(4), E678–E688. doi:10.1152/ajpendo.00157.2020

 

[Doitagain]

OK.

View attachment 186629
From biopsied human muscle.

View attachment 186630
Results showing that 200 mg testosterone enanthate weekly in military men following a voluminous mostly aerobic-endurance training program and in a severe caloric deficit (> 55% kcal) recomped, simultaneously building new muscle and losing fat with increased LBM and decreased fat mass. 1.6 g/kg protein, 30% macros from fat, severe caloric restriction (55% energy deficit) for 28 days.

Howard, E. E., Margolis, L. M., Berryman, C. E., Lieberman, H. R., Karl, J. P., Young, A. J., … Pasiakos, S. M. (2020). Testosterone supplementation upregulates androgen receptor expression and translational capacity during severe energy deficit. American Journal of Physiology-Endocrinology and Metabolism, 319(4), E678–E688. doi:10.1152/ajpendo.00157.2020

Slightly off topic, this study (that I already knew but thanks for posting it in this thread!) reminds me what I do with my clients at their first AAS cycle ever.
I almost always recommend aiming for a recomp rather than blowing up like crazy just to miserably deflate shortly after the cycle is over.
What can be achieved in terms of overall body recomposition on very conservative dosages on a maintenance calories diet (or even a slight deficit) can literally morph them.

 

[Diesel57]

It's partly genetics though. I bet ya they're running, to peak for the Olympia, less than luki blasts for months out of the year. Because they are world level talents.

I think it is both. You have to think - if a world class Mr. Olympia competitor would benefit in any capacity from increased dosages, they would obviously do it.

 

[Zamun]

I was excited to see this thread posted and have been following it closely.
I ended my cut at 218.7 and decided to come off everything except for 3iu tp black tops. My last pin was 7 sep. the second picture was taken this morning 12 weeks off. Weight is currently 223.8. I got bloodwork done at 10.5 weeks off. All bloodwork came back green except hematocrit. My test came back 98 total 22.8 free lol.
I was on 1.5g for the last 14 months and last 7 weeks close to 2g and up to 100 clen.

I decided to do this for my own experiment. Looking forward to starting this bulk Monday

2 grams of what?

 

[Bloodtrail]

Test,mast,winstrol.

My whole life I watched people blow up and shrink in gyms. I made a coach change and personally decided to clean out before we started. I saw this thread and thought my post was fitting.

I understand the science but I needed to see for myself because every other chemical/compound I’ve ever taken, I’ve built up a tolerance. When I switched to something different and came back to it, it was brand new. I’m excited to see how I respond. My coach said we probably won’t be doing this again so in time I will be able to find out personally which way is better for me.

This had showed me that diet and training is what makes you as I hit every meal and trained as heavy as I could.

 

[emeric delczeg]

I was excited to see this thread posted and have been following it closely.
I ended my cut at 218.7 and decided to come off everything except for 3iu tp black tops. My last pin was 7 sep. the second picture was taken this morning 12 weeks off. Weight is currently 223.8. I got bloodwork done at 10.5 weeks off. All bloodwork came back green except hematocrit. My test came back 98 total 22.8 free lol.
I was on 1.5g for the last 14 months and last 7 weeks close to 2g and up to 100 clen.

I decided to do this for my own experiment. Looking forward to starting this bulk Monday

You look natural on both pictures, it shows that you probably not training correctly, to look like that you don`t need any gear.

 

[aHarness]

Test,mast,winstrol.

My whole life I watched people blow up and shrink in gyms. I made a coach change and personally decided to clean out before we started. I saw this thread and thought my post was fitting.

I understand the science but I needed to see for myself because every other chemical/compound I’ve ever taken, I’ve built up a tolerance. When I switched to something different and came back to it, it was brand new. I’m excited to see how I respond. My coach said we probably won’t be doing this again so in time I will be able to find out personally which way is better for me.

This had showed me that diet and training is what makes you as I hit every meal and trained as heavy as I could.

Good luck man. Hope test is high with that mast and winny on bulk, I’d feel flat and way too dry for a bulk personally on that. Who’s the coach?

 

[Bloodtrail]

You look natural on both pictures, it shows that you probably not training correctly, to look like that you don`t need any gear.

The first picture was the end of my first cut ever. I followed my coaches guidance. The second picture I took yesterday was actually sub natural with a total test of 98. I’m now working with a new coach now, hopefully I’ll have more impressive pictures to post in the future

 

[Bloodtrail]

Good luck man. Hope test is high with that mast and winny on bulk, I’d feel flat and way too dry for a bulk personally on that. Who’s the coach?

I appreciate the support. The test was high. That is what I ran for my first cut(top picture)
I will be running test, primo, npp and gh for this bulk

 

[Swifto]

I appreciate the support. The test was high. That is what I ran for my first cut(top picture)
I will be running test, primo, npp and gh for this bulk

Doses?

 

[Type-IIx]

I think it is both. You have to think - if a world class Mr. Olympia competitor would benefit in any capacity from increased dosages, they would obviously do it.

Exactly, multifactorial. Follow a process of making small changes, focusing on weak points; rather than theoretically maximizing everything from the outset, and failing to exhaust continuous improvement for the illusory temporary gains (and a host of negative side effects).

 

[Type-IIx]

Yep, because concentrations (mg/mL) depend on volume (1 mL = 1 cm³), such that the more mass that you hold, the higher the dose needed to reach a given (e.g., blood) concentration.

Then, too, skeletal muscle contains AR that we care about for these concentrations to activate. Muscle mass is related to dose (mg/mL) in the same manner.

The primary manner of AR regulation that occurs by AAS dose is an increased translational capacity, meaning that ribosome number increases, the μg RNA/mg muscle increases (increased ribosomal density), in turn, increasing the absolute rate of translation of AR proteins for every kg of muscle you carry. But this increase in AR # is far from exponential like the increase to requirements for doses to hit a given concentration as you gain mass (for changes in body or muscle mass vs. AAS dose needed to maintain a given concentration, think a plot or graph of y = X³), rather this increase is merely logarithmic (think a plot or graph of y = log(X)).

To illustrate, visualize the degree of change needed in mg dose of AAS per mL (volume) of your 3-dimensional muscle mass as you grow as the green curve below. Visualize the rate of increase in AR number per mg increase in mg dose of AAS as the purple curve below:

View attachment 186604

I was asked to explain this simply elsewhere, so I will put the simplified and condensed version here:

This shows that as you grow, you need to increase dose at an increasing rate (up the dose significantly and, assuming continuous growth, continuously) for the 600 mg equivalent when you started at say 85 kg growing even to 90 kg.

The AR upregulation thing is a little more complex, but basically, AAS do the opposite of street drugs. They actually increase responsiveness with dose increase. However, this increased responsiveness does not keep pace with the fact that you are growing in size, and so practically you do still need to up the dose to get the same effect because of that.

The reason for extreme views about desensitization or tachyphylaxis in Western philosophies is rooted in confusion stemming from illicit drugs, characterized by extreme tachyphylaxis; and the reason for these apparently similar views in Eastern philosophies is rooted in adaptation theory, specifically, the models proposed by the Austrian Hans Selye's General Adaptation Syndrome.