AI Dose on Primo

[xpoc]

Many trt dr will run a ratio.. not a set number.. so if trt puts your test blood level at 600.. then it's plausible to shoot for a e2 of 20 to 40 and make adjustments.. but we are talking supra levels of test.. if your at 2000 blood levels of test and your tanking your e2 ro 35 to try and get to " normal" levels your going to tank hdl and other markers.. thats not healthy.. e2 should be elevated in ratio with test levels.. the use of constant AI to drop estrogen while running supra test levels is a cardiac nightmare. Estro is very protective in regards to joint and cardiac health.. let alone cognitive function.. dont be scared of it.. address it when needed.. but running AI right out of the gate without seeing where estro is even at is asking for issues.. let alone the absolute fact that AI like aromasin and arimidex do come with their own side effects.

I agree with all the above. Very logical explanation. Thanks.

 

[Wayacrucis]

Many trt dr will run a ratio.. not a set number.. so if trt puts your test blood level at 600.. then it's plausible to shoot for a e2 of 20 to 40 and make adjustments.. but we are talking supra levels of test.. if your at 2000 blood levels of test and your tanking your e2 ro 35 to try and get to " normal" levels your going to tank hdl and other markers.. thats not healthy.. e2 should be elevated in ratio with test levels.. the use of constant AI to drop estrogen while running supra test levels is a cardiac nightmare. Estro is very protective in regards to joint and cardiac health.. let alone cognitive function.. dont be scared of it.. address it when needed.. but running AI right out of the gate without seeing where estro is even at is asking for issues.. let alone the absolute fact that AI like aromasin and arimidex do come with their own side effects.

So for those guys that take high doses of Test (E.g 500-1000mg per week) and are gyno prone, what is the solution? I assume that they either have to take an AI or a SERM. I am not sure what's worse.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

So for those guys that take high doses of Test (E.g 500-1000mg per week) and are gyno prone, what is the solution? I assume that they either have to take an AI or a SERM. I am not sure what's worse.

Then it would be wise for those gyno prone guys to stick to compounds that cannot so easily convert to estrogens and lower their dose of aromatizable testosterone. In other words, be smart. A gyno prone and estrogen sensitive guy taking a gram of test? I'm sorry, but it's really hard for me to feel sorry for that guy. BUT... if they feel they must, when symptoms arise they can take a SERM or AI bc gynecomastia would be inevitable. This is the price they choose to pay and I'm not the one tell them they can't - unwise though it may be. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Wayacrucis]

Then it would be wise for those gyno prone guys to stick to compounds that cannot so easily convert to estrogens and lower their dose of aromatizable testosterone. In other words, be smart. A gyno prone and estrogen sensitive guy taking a gram of test? I'm sorry, but it's really hard for me to feel sorry for that guy. BUT... if they feel they must, when symptoms arise they can take a SERM or AI bc gynecomastia would be inevitable. This is the price they choose to pay and I'm not the one tell them they can't - unwise though it may be. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't think that's smart at all. I've competed at nationals plenty of times, and most competitors at least 3 out of 4 will end up with gyno taking 700mg+ of Testosterone with no SERM or AI. Almost all the competitors I know use high T in the off season. The guys that can blast high doses of T and not get gyno are the exception to the rule not the norm.

Equipoise is linked to kidney damage, spikes bp, spikes rbc, causes high anxiety.
Trenbolone is extremely toxic and stupid to use in the off-season
Most can't get it up if they use high Deca low T
High doses of Primo will wreak havoc on lipids when taking high doses.

The alternative options to High T are not exactly optimal or safer at all.

I think using Testosterone with an AI or a SERM, is much safer on one's health than blasting high doses of other Anabolics.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I don't think that's smart at all. I've competed at nationals plenty of times, and most competitors at least 3 out of 4 will end up with gyno taking 700mg+ of Testosterone with no SERM or AI. Almost all the competitors I know use high T in the off season. The guys that can blast high doses of T and not get gyno are the exception to the rule not the norm.

Equipoise is linked to kidney damage, spikes bp, spikes rbc, causes high anxiety.
Trenbolone is extremely toxic and stupid to use in the off-season
Most can't get it up if they use high Deca low T
High doses of Primo will wreak havoc on lipids when taking high doses.

The alternative options to High T are not exactly optimal or safer at all.

I think using Testosterone with an AI or a SERM, is much safer on one's health than blasting high doses of other Anabolics.

But they are blasting grams of anabolics as well! And grams of test in the off season too. What the hell are you saying? A test-only competitor with AI's? Let's come back to Earth, bro. Do you have photos of yourself on stage at Nationals? If they're already on the board, hook me up with a link.

 

[luki7788]

I don't think that's smart at all. I've competed at nationals plenty of times, and most competitors at least 3 out of 4 will end up with gyno taking 700mg+ of Testosterone with no SERM or AI. Almost all the competitors I know use high T in the off season. The guys that can blast high doses of T and not get gyno are the exception to the rule not the norm.

Equipoise is linked to kidney damage, spikes bp, spikes rbc, causes high anxiety.
Trenbolone is extremely toxic and stupid to use in the off-season
Most can't get it up if they use high Deca low T
High doses of Primo will wreak havoc on lipids when taking high doses.

The alternative options to High T are not exactly optimal or safer at all.

I think using Testosterone with an AI or a SERM, is much safer on one's health than blasting high doses of other Anabolics.

I am of the same opinion, it makes me laugh how people today think that shooting hundreds of mg of primo or masteron is healthier and has fewer side effects than, for example, 3-4 tabs of adex a week

complete nonsense

 

[LATS]

I agree with all the above. Very logical explanation. Thanks.

I am of the same opinion, it makes me laugh how people today think that shooting hundreds of mg of primo or masteron is healthier and has fewer side effects than, for example, 3-4 tabs of adex a week

complete nonsense

No.. if we are talking people concern about gyno then yes.. it is better to use other compounds Instead of blasting test.. thats if we are talking about predominantly estro concerns.. aromatase inhibitors come with their own set of issues.. there is even studies showing bone loss in lifters using AI.. and it's not necessarily from the loss of estro but AI not allowing the absorption of certain minerals.. so IF I had to take high amounts of test and gyno was my concern I'd take nolva in small amounts.. the half life of nolva I'd very long so even at low dose it's going to accumulate and build up very fast..
Yes all compounds have their sides.. but if we are talking estro concerns then there is enough compounds to choose from that aren't a concern in that area..

 

[Mufasa123]

there is even studies showing bone loss in lifters using AI.. and it's not necessarily from the loss of estro but AI not allowing the absorption of certain minerals..

This is interesting and the first time I've seen someone differentiating between AI direct impacts (mineral absorption) and indirect impacts from AI forcing E2 down too low and for too long.

Not questioning it but do you have the study name/source? Would love to check it out especially on a lifter/active population.

 

[LATS]

This is interesting and the first time I've seen someone differentiating between AI direct impacts (mineral absorption) and indirect impacts from AI forcing E2 down too low and for too long.

Not questioning it but do you have the study name/source? Would love to check it out especially on a lifter/active population.

There numerous studies on men using aromatase inhibitor and bone loss.. some show that estro loss is to blame .. others believe it is actually the compounds effect on the bone itself and its mineral loss and not always estro. Here is one study but if you Google "aromasin and bone loss In men cause" there is much more

 

[LATS]

Aromatase Inhibitors and Bone Loss

The aromatase inhibitors (AIs) anastrozole (Arimidex), letrozole (Femara), and exemestane (Aromasin) are significantly more effective than the selective estrogen-receptor modulator (SERM) tamoxifen in preventing recurrence in estrogen receptor–positive ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[LATS]

And based on the studies nolva caused no bone loss.. but it did show a watch for clotting.. nolva has a long half life.. 20mgs a day is not needed and will really build up over time. 10mgs seems to be the safer bet over time

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I am of the same opinion, it makes me laugh how people today think that shooting hundreds of mg of primo or masteron is healthier and has fewer side effects than, for example, 3-4 tabs of adex a week

complete nonsense

I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion as the subject of disagreement bc I've never even used primobolan or advocate its use in place of an AI. That would be ridiculous. What I'm merely saying is nobody with a severe sensitivity to estrogen is running 2.5gm of testosterone and DHB without a large dose of a powerful aromatase inhibitor like Aromasin or Letrozole. And for safety sake should choose compounds better suited for their sensitivity. Because as sure as I'm typing this, they WILL develop gynecomastia and other estrogenic side effects.

If you have a client that expresses to you that they have a severe reaction to estrogens, do you suggest they start taking testosterone, DHB, and daily Dianabol? I course not.

 

[luki7788]

I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion as the subject of disagreement bc I've never even used primobolan or advocate its use in place of an AI. That would be ridiculous. What I'm merely saying is nobody with a severe sensitivity to estrogen is running 2.5gm of testosterone and DHB without a large dose of a powerful aromatase inhibitor like Aromasin or Letrozole. And for safety sake should choose compounds better suited for their sensitivity. Because as sure as I'm typing this, they WILL develop gynecomastia and other estrogenic side effects.

If you have a client that expresses to you that they have a severe reaction to estrogens, do you suggest they start taking testosterone, DHB, and daily Dianabol? I course not.

you misunderstood me - I didn't mean you in particular, but in general this strange trend today to use dht derivatives as IA and saying that it is safer than strictly IA

 

[OuchThatHurts]

you misunderstood me - I didn't mean you in particular, but in general this strange trend today to use dht derivatives as IA and saying that it is safer than strictly IA

Oh! I see what you mean. No, I certainly wouldn't recommend that. That would be like trying to put out a fire with gasoline. I'm merely saying that if someone is extremely estrogen sensitive, they should adjust their compounds accordingly to favor non-aromatizable compounds. That's what I would recommend. But people are going to do what they they want to do.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

And based on the studies nolva caused no bone loss.. but it did show a watch for clotting.. nolva has a long half life.. 20mgs a day is not needed and will really build up over time. 10mgs seems to be the safer bet over time

That clotting factor is a biggie though! How many people have to have embolisms and MI before we start taking blood mass seriously? (thinking of John Meadows and people right here on this very board)

 

[Mufasa123]

And based on the studies nolva caused no bone loss.. but it did show a watch for clotting.. nolva has a long half life.. 20mgs a day is not needed and will really build up over time. 10mgs seems to be the safer bet over time

Appreciate the info in your posts above. Will check it out. This is one of the areas that's caught my attention as I will use some lower AI doses as needed. At this age just trying to find a good sustainable balance where I'm minimizing damage/strain as best I can and still enjoying myself and working toward goals. 3 decades into gear (with some long breaks at times) and 10 into TRT and Blast/Cruise so not many questions, especially relevant to my current goals, but this was one of them. Thanks!

 

[Wayacrucis]

But they are blasting grams of anabolics as well! And grams of test in the off season too. What the hell are you saying? A test-only competitor with AI's? Let's come back to Earth, bro. Do you have photos of yourself on stage at Nationals? If they're already on the board, hook me up with a link.

I am no monster by any means. I compete in classic. Personally, the most I use in the off-season is 750mg Test E with 500mg Deca per week. I agree that most competitors are using Test + Another anabolic, but I still don't see how something like

1000mg EQ + 250mg Test E or 1000mg Primo + 250mg Test E or any of those variants would be healthier than the traditional cycles.

I am trying to use as little gear as possible. At the moment, I am 6 weeks out of a pro qualifier and my stack is what I posted. 100mg Test P ED, 100mg Primo ED, and 4IU GH/day.

I plan on adding Winstrol at the very end. That's it. No Tren. No halo. No excessively toxic shit.

As for what I look like, I was mid-way prep in 2020 but was too beat up so I had to pull out. I posted some pics where I Was 5-6 weeks at the link below.

Even then, my doses were on the lower dose for prep. I love the sport and I am trying to do my best without using harsh drugs.

At the moment, I look very similar to the pics from 2020, but although a bit less hard and grainy. Though that makes sense, as I had some Tren, Mast and Var in the mix, while now I only have Primo. Mentally, I feel way better without the Tren and Mast in the mix though.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/pulled-out-from-north-american-cup-4-weeks-out-thoughts.165874/#post-2876834

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I am no monster by any means. I compete in classic. Personally, the most I use in the off-season is 750mg Test E with 500mg Deca per week. I agree that most competitors are using Test + Another anabolic, but I still don't see how something like

1000mg EQ + 250mg Test E or 1000mg Primo + 250mg Test E or any of those variants would be healthier than the traditional cycles.

I am trying to use as little gear as possible. At the moment, I am 6 weeks out of a pro qualifier and my stack is what I posted. 100mg Test P ED, 100mg Primo ED, and 4IU GH/day.

I plan on adding Winstrol at the very end. That's it. No Tren. No halo. No excessively toxic shit.

As for what I look like, I was mid-way prep in 2020 but was too beat up so I had to pull out. I posted some pics where I Was 5-6 weeks at the link below.

Even then, my doses were on the lower dose for prep. I love the sport and I am trying to do my best without using harsh drugs.

At the moment, I look very similar to the pics from 2020, but although a bit less hard and grainy. Though that makes sense, as I had some Tren, Mast and Var in the mix, while now I only have Primo. Mentally, I feel way better without the Tren and Mast in the mix though.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/pulled-out-from-north-american-cup-4-weeks-out-thoughts.165874/#post-2876834

Yeah. I read through all that. Wow. That was hard to read. You can't handle the cardio, you can't handle the low carbs, you can't handle your coach, dropped out and blamed him, you can't handle the androgens, you can't handle the anabolics, your work takes precedence, you're unable to sacrifice yourself, unable to go through that hell for 2 or 3 months, I mean... I wish you the best. In the end, it's about what makes you happy.

Although I can't figure out what about this lifestyle you do like, I make no judgements. Like I said, it's what makes you happy and this journey is all you. I'd just ask you to not reject perfectly good advice or suggestions as "wrong" when really what you mean is "wrong for you". Because seriously, you would be a nightmare to train and prep, honestly. And you know that.

Regards,
OTH

 

[Wayacrucis]

Yeah. I read through all that. Wow. That was hard to read. You can't handle the cardio, you can't handle the low carbs, you can't handle your coach, dropped out and blamed him, you can't handle the androgens, you can't handle the anabolics, your work takes precedence, you're unable to sacrifice yourself, unable to go through that hell for 2 or 3 months, I mean... I wish you the best. In the end, it's about what makes you happy.

Although I can't figure out what about this lifestyle you do like, I make no judgements. Like I said, it's what makes you happy and this journey is all you. I'd just ask you to not reject perfectly good advice or suggestions as "wrong" when really what you mean is "wrong for you". Because seriously, you would be a nightmare to train and prep, honestly. And you know that.

Regards,
OTH

Lol you don't know shit about me.

Let's see clear physique pics of you and your accomplishments in bodybuilding.

I am a father of 2, early 30s and the principal broker of a firm that funds over 300 million in loans. Perhaps if you had family obligations to my extent and managed a company of such size you'd be able to relate.

But let's not even go there. Let's see what you look first. If someone is going to shit on me as a bodybuilder, since I am not able to handle any aspect of it, I sure as hell hope their physique puts mine to shame.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I'm not the "I've competed at nationals plenty of times" guy here, dumbass. I don't need to prove shit. All you've proven so far is that you know how to drop the fuck out.