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Am I the only one who never has to use an aromatase inhibitor?

beast405

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I don’t run ais any more unless I absolutely have to (if my nipples start hurting real bad ). Which is rare for me anymore even on High dosages. When I was younger they would hurt even when taking small cycles. But I already have pubertal gyno And of course steroids made it worse but I’m planning on getting it removed next year so I’m not worried about it.
 

Crazy_jay

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It seems likely they can't reach testicular aromatase either, I've seen this proposed in research but never proven, it fits with their limited ability to reduce E2 in males.
I've read the research too and while not much estrogen is produced in the testes, it's the only logical thing I can come up with as to why in studies after two weeks of running 25mg aromasin, estrogen was only on the low side of normal.

I've taken 25mg aromasin and it only took 10 days(possibly less, 10 days was when I got blood work, sensitive estradiol) to crash my estrogen to a 3. 11 days later of no ai, sensitive estradiol test, still a 3 but studies report estrogen returns to baseline 3-6 days after discontinuing aromasin. 5 weeks later, my estrogen was in the 90s.

On 500mg test and no ai, more than one estradiol test pushing 100. 500mg with 12.5mg aromasin Ed, estradiol in upper 20s. Aromasin seems to be stronger in those that aren't natural.

Oddly though, I've read stories of guys running a consistent test dose and the same ai dose would affect them differently based upon where their estrogen started. If estrogen was high, something like 6.25mg ed wouldn't bring estrogen down at all but if they get their estrogen down lower, going back to that same 6.25mg dose would then start pushing estrogen too low. I can't make sense of it.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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I've read the research too and while not much estrogen is produced in the testes, it's the only logical thing I can come up with as to why in studies after two weeks of running 25mg aromasin, estrogen was only on the low side of normal.

I've taken 25mg aromasin and it only took 10 days(possibly less, 10 days was when I got blood work, sensitive estradiol) to crash my estrogen to a 3. 11 days later of no ai, sensitive estradiol test, still a 3 but studies report estrogen returns to baseline 3-6 days after discontinuing aromasin. 5 weeks later, my estrogen was in the 90s.

On 500mg test and no ai, more than one estradiol test pushing 100. 500mg with 12.5mg aromasin Ed, estradiol in upper 20s. Aromasin seems to be stronger in those that aren't natural.

Oddly though, I've read stories of guys running a consistent test dose and the same ai dose would affect them differently based upon where their estrogen started. If estrogen was high, something like 6.25mg ed wouldn't bring estrogen down at all but if they get their estrogen down lower, going back to that same 6.25mg dose would then start pushing estrogen too low. I can't make sense of it.
Probably because of a relationship of estrogen:SHBG?

I agree that aromasin is way stronger in TRT/blast/cruise guys. I used to cycle in my 20s and after I recovered I would run aromasin at half tab to full tab a day to keep estrogen down for recovery. I would always have estrogen come back in the 20s even at that dosage. Nowadays if I took half tab a day even on a half gram of wet steroids I'd have almost nothing estrogen wise.
 

Crazy_jay

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Probably because of a relationship of estrogen:SHBG?
I believe shbg plays a role we don't fully understand. Seems most guys like myself that absolutely struggle to get dialed in, have low shbg, last tested, mine was a 21 or 22, low on lab was 18. The protocols I used to run when I started 7 years ago don't work for me anymore. I used to kind of maintain, I crossed through my sweet spot, never found a way to stay there, pretty amazing feeling when you find it.

My main issue could possibly just be water retention wearing me down. Little brainstorming here. Low shbg, high free test. High free test, more conversion to estrogen. Take ai to reduce estrogen, further reduce shbg, increase free test more. Now to lower free test, body converts more test to dht. As I've recently learned, high dht can or does cause sodium retention, sodium retention = water retention and bloat. Mistake water retention and bloat as estrogen still being elevated, crash estrogen. Now with crashed estrogen, really dry and dehydrated, while still retaining water. Solution? Diuretic, in this case, hctz, reduces sodium retention, reduces water retention but further increases dehydration. Dht blocker? But don't those come with their own set of issues?

I do have a receding hairline because of steroids, mpb doesn't even run in my family. I have stopped an ai on 125mg, 250mg, 500mg test/week and within 5 weeks, have watched my hair start to grow back, become softer, less coarse, etc. Now, on 250mg and 500mg with no ai, super bloated and more water retention, more tired. I'll hold 10lbs additional water on 500mg with no ai than I do on 250mg. On 125mg test and no ai, I hold about 25lbs less water than 500mg amd 15lbs less than 250mg. The kicker, on all three of those doses with no ai, little to no sex drive. At first introduction to an ai, sex drive spikes, strength spikes, water starts to drop and before I ever find a sweet spot, my estrogen seems to go to low or my dht goes to high and gives me winstrol like sides.

Every time I think I'm getting close, it falls apart, and seems like if I try the same thing twice, I end up with a little different results.

I agree with the member that says we should debate the hell out of these kinds of threads. We don't have studies that apply to us, we are the study.
 

Butters

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I don’t run ais any more unless I absolutely have to (if my nipples start hurting real bad ). Which is rare for me anymore even on High dosages. When I was younger they would hurt even when taking small cycles. But I already have pubertal gyno And of course steroids made it worse but I’m planning on getting it removed next year so I’m not worried about it.


guessing you did not read gotgame's post
 

Butters

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I read it bud. Everybody has different opinions


not trying to be a dick


you read it, but did you understand it?

gotgame is talking about the dangers of hepatic adenomas - resulting from elevated estrogen, and the stupidity of only running AI's when you are getting the obvious and visual signs of high estrogen E.G. bad acne and gyno


...and then you're like "i only use AI when my nipples hurt"


do you not believe that high estrogen causes dangerous health effects?
 

beast405

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Possibly

not trying to be a dick


you read it, but did you understand it?

gotgame is talking about the dangers of hepatic adenomas - resulting from elevated estrogen, and the stupidity of only running AI's when you are getting the obvious and visual signs of high estrogen E.G. bad acne and gyno


...and then you're like "i only use AI when my nipples hurt"


do you not believe that high estrogen causes dangerous health effects?
 

NEMSZ

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Don’t know how long you’ve been around and not trying to be a dick here either but;

@gotgame is an actual medical doctor, he’s posted on here quite a few times the different things he’s personally seen and dealt with patients who were athletes, bodybuilders etc who’ve used/abused AAS etc...

So yes, while his post is in fact an opinion, he’s not some asshole that just read a Google search and formed an opinion. His opinions are backed by his actual experience with patients and being in the medical field...
 

gotgame

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AI's don't generally cross the blood-brain barrier, Letro may but not proven. Aromatase in the brain very limited but may be important for things like sex drive. BTW AIs can't reach aromatase in the ovaries either, which is why they don't work as well in premenopausal women. It seems likely they can't reach testicular aromatase either, I've seen this proposed in research but never proven, it fits with their limited ability to reduce E2 in males.


I think this is why some guys experience impaired libido when taking something like letrozole despite very high androgen levels and even with e2 in normal range.

I am not aware of studies done on normal blood brain barrier in humans with letrozole ( there may be i just cant recall of top of my head). But i know of a few done on rats where it showed letrozole crossing. Then ofcourse we know it can cross in humans in the setting of gliomas but that breaks down the barrier ( whole point of using IV contrast on an mri for brain cancer).

Arimidex in mice/rats crosses BBB but seems to get effluxed out so less CNS effects then say letro. A bit more challenging to study on humans.

im not 100% sure about exemestane. I know it crosses in the setting of ER dependent mets and it can have similar sides on the CNS in women ( memory etc) that say letro and tamox would so my best guess is it does but probably not to the same extent of letro but id have to look that up.

As for CNS issues...other then libido. Another reason not to just down tons of AI's like some guys do because they think it helps with bodyfat... but keep in mind that ERa and ERb are found on the amygdala, thalamus, hippo and the entire temporal cortex. For those of you who arent aware and dont wanna google that means spatial memory and longer memory. Tamox seems to do this as well and i recall multiple human trials looking at AI's and tamox in memory some can vary a bit but most showed some effects on memory and other functions.

moral of the story is use what you need..not more. AI's and tamox ( serms) have side effects so if possible get labs done and dont overdo it but you also dont wanna just not use them at all when your on like a 1 gram of test and think its fine because you dont have gyno yet.
 

6iron

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Am I the only one who never has to use an aromatase inhibitors? I’ve never experienced sore nipples using any anabolic and at any given amount. I consider myself lucky!

In my 23 years I have never had to have any. I kept it on hand for the first couple of years and that was it.
 

opietaylor

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mimics exactly what i said. 10 years or so down the road we are going to see a lot of guys dropping.................hence the warning


 

Crazy_jay

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mimics exactly what i said. 10 years or so down the road we are going to see a lot of guys dropping.................hence the warning


Two guys, who aren't Dr's telling everyone ai's are bad. Why are we still overlooking hepatic adenoma's? Studies linking them to estrogen. Guys on this forum board who have experienced it.

Dr Rand McClain is a highly experienced dr with patients on trt and helps those who blast. He likes his patients estradiol at 15-20 and is very adamant that estradiol stay in range. He goes as far to claim that most guys on average will need 12.5mg aromasin Ed on a true trt dose of test.

I have trouble getting dialed in myself but as I just once again recently confirmed, I feel worse off an ai than I do on. Anxiety, stomach all jacked up, lack of appetite, tiredness, moody. I don't think bloodwork even tells the whole story. I can feel the swings of going on and off an ai and when I stop an ai, within two days I'll crash hard, start sleeping all day and within 2 weeks, I'll have 90% all of the side effects listed for estrogen pills(I believe the side effects listed for estrogen pills gives us the best list of sides related to high estrogen). Odd thing is, I've had bloodwork that doesn't show the swing, and I've pretty much given up on testing estradiol and focus more on my symptoms. I've felt better with my estradiol at a 12, than I did when it was 24.

I do not believe everyone needs an ai, it's very individual, but I do think it would be wise to keep estradiol in range. Too many guys quit trt after several months of feeling like crap because their dr won't prescribe an ai and then there's the stories of the guys on trt who felt like crap until their dr prescribed an ai.
 

opietaylor

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and what are the health effects associated with the intake of a toxic compound such as anastrozole in men long term? even at micro-doses
 

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