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Avoiding Heavy Androgenic Steriods Pre-Contest

Wayacrucis

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Hey all. So I wanted to share my experience with some of you, and also hopefully receive some insight.

I've noticed that pre contest, especially the last 4-5 weeks, I tend to become extremely irritable and miserable. My ability to also go to sleep and stay as asleep also goes to shit, which makes everything worse with elevated cortisol levels and poor recovery.

I always assumed this was all mainly due to the diet and to a small degree due to the drugs. Like most others, I end up using the typical Test P/Tren A/Mast P as my injectables, with some orals towards the end, namely Var and Winstrol.

However recently I started a cut with just 150mg Test Prop and 150MG NPP EOD. I am pretty damn close to contest shape, and I feel completely fine. Obviously there is a degree of fatigue, but I have no issues with sleep and most importatnly I am not in that constant "miserable/short fused state" that most of tend to get pre contest all day long. This led me to believe that the drugs have a much higher contribution to this shitty feeling than I had previously assumed.

Now I understanding that Tren and Mast are a must for some, but I am a classic competitor at my weight limit, so as long as I can maintain my lean tissue throughout the cut and get super hard/dry, then I am good.

First, I wanted to know if anyone else has experienced something similar to this? Second, what would you guys say would be my best option for AAS for the last 4-6 weeks assuming I want to avoid most androgenic AAS.

I am completely fine with NPP/TEST P until the 4-6 weeks point, but I have to drop NPP at 4 weeks outish due to the minor water retention, and add in some other anabolic agents and cosmetic AAS.

I am personally thinking, Anavar, Proviron and Winstrol would be the best stack.

Tren is obviously highly androgenic, so that's a no go.

Can anyone chime in to the androgenicity of Var, Proviron, Winstrol, Primo and Mast P? I've looked at the charts, but from what I am told they don't really mean much?
 

Liv2Grow

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I agree with your assessment especially when it comes to Tren. However, I am not sure if Masteron should be grouped in as Tren may be the main issue. I have found another thing is pushing E2 too low as well when you are 4-6 weeks out. Bottomed out E2 along with Tren can really make you feel like shit & cause some nasty night sweats.

I actually think you can get dry & hard on NPP and run it up through the show. I really like the fullness / roundness that NPP tends to bring. You may want to look into Test / NPP / MAST combo or switch out the NPP or Materon from Primo depending on how you look. The Masteron should help bring that hard / dry look even while taking NPP. Then you could look to add in some winny and/or proviron if needed. But I would still keep the NPP dosage reasonable. Too high could obviously cause problems.

As long as you are truly peeled / really low BF & estrogen is controlled then you should not have issues getting hard & dry. With that being said, I would avoid crushing E2. Meaning don't do something like stack 25mg aromasin + Nolva + Proviron daily with little to no aromatizing AAS present. I think having some estrogen present is beneficial for many reason and brings in a better look. I typically like to keep Test in at my TRT dose the last 4 weeks for this reason. Main thing is to get fucking peeled then controlling water is not usually a problem.
 

Wayacrucis

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I agree with your assessment especially when it comes to Tren. However, I am not sure if Masteron should be grouped in as Tren may be the main issue. I have found another thing is pushing E2 too low as well when you are 4-6 weeks out. Bottomed out E2 along with Tren can really make you feel like shit & cause some nasty night sweats.

I actually think you can get dry & hard on NPP and run it up through the show. I really like the fullness / roundness that NPP tends to bring. You may want to look into Test / NPP / MAST combo or switch out the NPP or Materon from Primo depending on how you look. The Masteron should help bring that hard / dry look even while taking NPP. Then you could look to add in some winny and/or proviron if needed. But I would still keep the NPP dosage reasonable. Too high could obviously cause problems.

As long as you are truly peeled / really low BF & estrogen is controlled then you should not have issues getting hard & dry. With that being said, I would avoid crushing E2. Meaning don't do something like stack 25mg aromasin + Nolva + Proviron daily with little to no aromatizing AAS present. I think having some estrogen present is beneficial for many reason and brings in a better look. I typically like to keep Test in at my TRT dose the last 4 weeks for this reason. Main thing is to get fucking peeled then controlling water is not usually a problem.

I agree.

My dose of AI is currently 12.5mg Aromasin EOD, and I am taking 150mg prop EOD.

You're also right about Mast, as on paper it should not really cause any issues. I suppose my issue has been that I've always added Tren and Mast at around the same time.

I think your suggestion of NPP/MAST/TEST P is very good. I considered using Primo instead of NPP, but I figured switching to Primo from NPP at 5-6 weeks out just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. I personally tend to not hold much water to begin with, and Primo being a long ester and a relatively weak AAS, just seems kinda redundant.
 

KillerStack

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I have a theory, and I could be completely wrong, that issues with lethargy and exhaustion from drugs like tren might not be due to high cortisol but the opposite. I'd bet doing some hydrocortisone could give a positive boost in these regards for a short while. But it's likely it wouldn't help the physique aspect. Tren is supposed to be a potent cortisol antagonist.
From what I've read, Cytadren used to make people feel like absolute shit, most likely due to suppressing cortisol.

Last couple of weeks one might carefully do some gaba-agonist to reduce the crappy feeling, feeling irritable, not being able to sleep etc.
 

b-boy

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If you peel almost all the fat off your body will you hold water? hmmmm
 

KillerStack

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If you peel almost all the fat off your body will you hold water? hmmmm

If you are "fat free" you can sometimes get away with some subcutaneous water retention.
I've see it, someone clearly has water under the skin but looks fantastic regardless. But if one is still fat, drying out only makes them look worse :D
 

Sides

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I have a theory, and I could be completely wrong, that issues with lethargy and exhaustion from drugs like tren might not be due to high cortisol but the opposite. I'd bet doing some hydrocortisone could give a positive boost in these regards for a short while. But it's likely it wouldn't help the physique aspect. Tren is supposed to be a potent cortisol antagonist.
From what I've read, Cytadren used to make people feel like absolute shit, most likely due to suppressing cortisol.

Last couple of weeks one might carefully do some gaba-agonist to reduce the crappy feeling, feeling irritable, not being able to sleep etc.

I can vouch for this about Cytadren and lowering cortisol, although I have no idea if the issues with Tren are due to low cortisol.

On Dan Duchaine's advice, I used to take Cytadren way back in 1992, when we were all experimenting with it as an anti-catabolic because it lowers cortisol. I felt absolutely awful, horrible temper, dry joints, sneezing constantly despite taking anti-histamines. Felt so terrible I couldn't train, saw no benefits, and discontinued using Cytadren.

I think the only reason that some guys could get away with using it was because so many were using Nubain and other drugs at the time. But using Cytadren was a miserable experience for me, and I would never use it again.

By contrast, Tren of course makes me strong and aggressive, in the gym and in life, feels good and improves sex drive, but also gives me a horrible, uncontrollable temper, which is the main reason I don't use Tren anymore. It also crashes my lipids and gives me some gyno, but the temper, anger, and aggression issues are why sadly I can't use Tren again. I have a baby daughter, and kids in the house, and I just don't want to be that much of an asshole anymore.
 

Wayacrucis

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I have a theory, and I could be completely wrong, that issues with lethargy and exhaustion from drugs like tren might not be due to high cortisol but the opposite. I'd bet doing some hydrocortisone could give a positive boost in these regards for a short while. But it's likely it wouldn't help the physique aspect. Tren is supposed to be a potent cortisol antagonist.
From what I've read, Cytadren used to make people feel like absolute shit, most likely due to suppressing cortisol.

Last couple of weeks one might carefully do some gaba-agonist to reduce the crappy feeling, feeling irritable, not being able to sleep etc.

This is a sound theory, but I personally don’t like feel like crap on Trenbolone when I am bulking or eating maintenance. I’d assume cortisol would be even lower then, no?
 

madg

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Stay on test p , npp till 6 weeks out

6 weeks out start anavar
4 weeks out start winstrol drop test
3 weeks out start proviron

Keep npp all the way or switch to primo at 6 weeks out

If truly shredded you wil come right on point

Respect
 

KillerStack

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By contrast, Tren of course makes me strong and aggressive, in the gym and in life, feels good and improves sex drive, but also gives me a horrible, uncontrollable temper, which is the main reason I don't use Tren anymore. It also crashes my lipids and gives me some gyno, but the temper, anger, and aggression issues are why sadly I can't use Tren again. I have a baby daughter, and kids in the house, and I just don't want to be that much of an asshole anymore.

I get horrible dark moods, depressed and a quick temper, a "I just want to watch the world burn" type of attitude :D
Matt Porter talked about a feeling where his arms went "numb" on tren. I get a bit of that, a very stiff feeling in the muscle. If I have been sitting for a while and then suddenly stand up it feels like I'm close to tearing muscles. Also a "nervous system exhaustion" type feeling after a while. Sex drive can be increased to an embarrassing level, but it may also disappear somewhere along the way:D
 

KillerStack

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This is a sound theory, but I personally don’t like feel like crap on Trenbolone when I am bulking or eating maintenance. I’d assume cortisol would be even lower then, no?

I don't know what happens with cortisol on a bulk v. a cut nor if my theory is correct.
I do remember Duchaine saying tren may permanently do something to cortisol, reducing cort receptors or something, I can't recall exactly.

I think the Russians added some hydrocortisone to cycles sometimes after a while.
They had this test where they gave an athlete Dbol 10mg at night, in the morning if cortisol was suppressed it meant the athlete
probably had been "abusing" it, since acutely it should increase cortisol. Who knows, the feel good effects of Dbol might have something to do with cortisol.

Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 32, No. 2 232-240
doi:10.1210/jcem-32-2-232
Copyright © 1971 by the Endocrine Society.

Effects of Anabolic Steroids on Hormone-Binding Proteins, Serum Cortisol and Serum Nonprotein-Bound Cortisol
JOSE BARBOSA, ULYSSES S. SEAL and RICHARD P. DOE

Metabolic Research Section, Minneapolis Veterans Administration Hospital Minneapolis, Minnesota

Department of Medicine, University of Minnesota Minneapolis, Minnesota
Department of Biochemistry, University of Minnesota Minneapolis, Minnesota

The effects on plasma proteins of the anabolic steroids oxymetholone, methandrostenolone, stanozolol, fluoxymesterone, oxandrolone, norethandrolone, ethylestrenol, nandrolone phenpropionate and methandriol dipropionate, as well as 17{alpha}-methyltestosterone, given orally and sublingually, testosterone propionate sublingual and parenteral aqueous testosterone, were studied on both volunteers and patients. The responses of thyroxine-binding globulin (TBG), thyroxine-binding prealbumin (TBPA), cortisol-binding globulin (CBG), serum cortisol and nonprotein-bound cortisol (NPC) were studied. The 17{alpha}-alkylated anabolic steroids induced marked changes, with significant elevations of TBPA and depression of TBG; CBG was significantly increased by oxymetholone and methandrostenolone. Both the latter steroids have conjugated and unsaturated resonating systems in ring A. On the other hand, the non-17{alpha}-alkylated androgens did not produce these changes. The C-3 ketone group, absent from ethylestrenol, seemed also to be important for effects upon these plasma protein concentrations. These effects on plasma proteins are dose related and different from the ones obtained with estrogens or during an acute phase reaction. Only methandrostenolone produced a significant increment in cortisol, and none of the anabolic steroids significantly changed NPC. A negative correlation (r= –0.78; p<0.01) was found between the ability to produce nitrogen retention in man and the degree of depression of TBG serum levels, for different anabolic steroids. It is concluded that in general a 17{alpha}-alkyl group, and to a lesser degree a C-3 ketone group, are necessary for those changes in plasma proteins. Additional unsaturation in ring A (other than the {alpha}, β unsaturation) may result in changes in CBG and is consistent with the effect of estrogen on this protein.
 

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