Bench Presses

[medici999]

Is this the study??

This ought to get an interesting discussion started. And if you decide to reply, PLEASE don't reply in quotes so the whole thing is pasted in over and over.

This is more on the topic of "what muscles do what during which exercises."

A quick caveat. First, I didn't write this. Some of you have seen this, or portions of it, before. But in light of the popular (and provocative) ATrainer discussion over bench presses emphasis, this looks at the same general question from the opposite direction. Instead of looking at the exercise, and determining what muscles contribute, this looks at the muscles, and determines the most effective movement to create microtrauma.

This study was conducted by Tudor O. Bompa, PhD & Lorenzo J. Cornacchia. Both men and women were used in the sudy and all subjects had at least two years experience with resistance training.

Electromyographical (EMG) Research is an essential research tool allowing physiologists to determine the role of muscles during specific movements. EMG is a scientific method of measuring the level of excitation. This is done by placing electrodes over your body and recording the level of muscle activity induced by an exercise. A study was conducted to find which exercises cause the greatest amount of activity within each muscle group and, as a consequence, determine which exercises will produce the greatest gains in mass and strength.
Here are the results of that study:

(100% would signify maximum muscle fiber stimulation)

Pectoralis Major
Decline dumbbell bench press -----------------93%
Decline bench press, Olympic bar(OB)---------89
Push-ups between benches --------------------88
Flat dumbbell bench press ----------------------87
Flat bench press (OB) ---------------------------85
Flat dumbbell flyes -------------------------------84

Pectoralis Minor
Incline dumbbell bench press ------------------91%
Incline bench press (OB) ------------------------85
Incline dumbbell flyes ---------------------------83
Incline bench press (smith machine) -------------81

Medial Deltoids
Incline dumbbell (db) side laterals ----------- 66%
Standing db side laterals -----------------------63
Seated db side laterals -------------------------62
Cable side laterals -------------------------------47

Posterior Deltoids
Standing db bent laterals ---------------------- 85%
Seated db bent laterals -------------------------83
Standing cable bent laterals --------------------77

Anterior Deltoids
Seated front db press -------------------------79%
Standing front db raises ----------------------73
Seated front barbell press --------------------61

Biceps brachii (long head)
Preacher curls (Ob) ---------------------------- 90%
Incline seated Db curls (alternate) ------------- 88
Standing biceps curls (Ob/narrow grip)--------- 86
Standing Db curls (alternate) -------------------- 84
Concentration Db curls ---------------------------- 80
Standing curls (Ob/wide grip)-------------------- 63
Standing E-Z curls (wide grip) ------------------ 61

Triceps brachii (outer head)
Decline extensions (Ob) -------------------------- 92%
Triceps pressdowns (angled bar) ------------------ 90
Dips with a bench -----------------------------------87
One-arm cable extensions (reverse grip) ------------ 85
Overhead rope extensions ------------------------ 85
Seated one-arm Db extensions (neutral grip)-------- 82
Close-grip bench press (Ob) ---------------------- 72

Latissimus dorsi (back)
Bent-over Bb rows -----------------------------------93%
One-arm Db rows ------------------------------------91
T-bar rows ---------------------------------------------89
Lat pulldowns to the front ------------------------------86
Seated pulley rows -------------------------------------83

Rectus femoris (quads)
Safety squats (90 deg angle, shoulder width stance) --------88%
seated leg extensions (toes straight) -----------------------86
Hack squats (90 deg angle, shoulder width stance) --------78
Leg press (110 deg angle) ---------------------------------76
Smith machine (90 deg angle, shoulder width stance) --------60

Biceps femoris (hamsring)
Standing leg curls ---------------------------------------82%
Lying leg curls --------------------------------------------71
Seated leg curls -----------------------------------------58
Modified hamstring deads (SLDLs, I assume)----------56

Semitendinosus (inner hamstring)
Seated leg curls ----------------------------------------88
Standing leg curls --------------------------------------79
Lying leg curls -----------------------------------------70
Modified hamstring deads (SLDLs, I assume)------------63

Gastrocnemius (calf muscle)
Donkey raises -----------------------------------80
Standing one-leg raises -------------------------79
Standing two-leg raises --------------------------68
Seated calf raises ----------------------------------61

 

[tkav1980]

:yeahthat:

all the other Phil Hernon guys noticing something?

 

[Johnny Smiles]

:yeahthat:

all the other Phil Hernon guys noticing something?

why didnt they measure pectoralis minor stimulation with declines?

anyway, its fact that declines BLAST the chest. i can use heavy poundage on declines and have no shoulder pain and it feels very safe. by far best gains i have ever made on chest is due to declines and second best gains would be dips i love them too!
for me flat bench flat out sucks. hurts and feels dangerous to my shoulders.
-JS

 

[thethe]

Move in grip

If you choose to still bench (i do just because for me its a good overall movement), move your grip in. I had to almost start from scratch with my bench by moving my grip in to something that is very close to a close grip bench. My rotator was a mess before I did this, so i rested and then moved back slowly to a heavier weight. I dont go above 405lb as it seems like a waste and it hurts my elbows to but just try moving in your grip and take more time off.

 

[medici999]

why is it cable laterals, and dumbell laterals provide such different stimulation when its the same movement?

 

[D BO]

I still use regular bench although I stick mainly to db's or hammer strength, when I do bb bench i keep it light usually and go for more reps followed by push ups and dips. Push ups and dips are a staple in my chest routines.

 

[The Dude]

I only do Hammer or Strive on flat. I'll occassionally do heavy incline barbell or moderate dumbells. I also pre exhaust with cables or pec deck.

 

[DrS]

Well

I think this is a great discussion, I believe the study was based on the stimulation of the whole muscle , so declines would not effect the entire muscle but yet do a lot for the bottom and middle of the muscle. Just the same that is some interesting stats.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

I think this is a great discussion, I believe the study was based on the stimulation of the whole muscle , so declines would not effect the entire muscle but yet do a lot for the bottom and middle of the muscle. Just the same that is some interesting stats.

not a scientist at all, but in theory it seems a muscle works on an all or nothing principle right? you can't flex ONLY pectoralis minor without flexing the major and vice versa... they might not be stimulated to same degree but they are being stimulated simultaneiously no matter what right?
any exercise physiology majors in the house?
-JS

 

[Johnny Smiles]

why is it cable laterals, and dumbell laterals provide such different stimulation when its the same movement?

i think its due to the "anchor" position of the pulley.
with a free wight there is no "anchor" so the delt can be effectively isolated to move the weight whereas with a cable i always feel my forearm kicking in a bit to counteract the anchor point of the pully and the plane of motion of my arm... not sure that makes sense. but its what it feels like. my theory lol. i obviously don't have a degree in physics and etc.
-JS

 

[pumpkinhead]

Heres is an observation of someone who never does flat or inclines. Oh, I dont get into pissing matches, I get into debates. Can you post up some pics of your chest?

so I am gonna compare my chest against a pro? I thought we aleady had this debate about genetics? If you don't think he has amazing genetics your crazy.... this "debate" is just getting stupid. I am gonna take the high road and take myself out of it. So Phil is right, and all the other pro's that don't do declines are just nuts? its knowing ones own personal body and going with it. If it works for ya, just go for it.

Personally for me, I bodybuild. I don't ego lift. I will pre-exaust my pecs before I even sit down for my first compound movment half the time... I was simply making a point, most guys are strongest on decline....hence that is what the 150lb'rs at my gym go for first when they are the strongest, i.e. ego lifting.

I will let you guys "debate" with youself on this one..I am done. If you would like to feel like you won or changed my mind you can...but I have been around 17 years, can't teach a old dog new tricks. I am also not saying, I never did a decline, had them part of my routine for a couple years, never did much for me.

 

[Ness]

Yes, debates get stupid when its fact vs opinion. I agree that you should take the high road and bow out because your not bringing anything to debate with anymore except opinion. Thats cool, I respect your opinion as an opinion.

 

[SL1CED]

Whatever works for you, works for you.

You can't say well IFBB Pro X never did declines, and look at his chest. Then combat it at well, IFBB Pro Y did them religiously, and look at his...compared to yours?

That's apples vs. oranges. IFBB pro's are genetic freaks. Compare them amongst each other, not against a gym rat. Just flawed logic there.

Though, in my limited experience, I really enjoyed neck presses.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

i will spell it out:

the EMG study provides FACTUAL evidence that decline press stimulates more of the chest than conventional flat presses.
it says nothing about which exercise will produce a bigger chest becuase that is ultimately determined by GENETICS in my experience.
Phil Heath is gonna do everything he can to get his chest bigger but his structure (ie genetics) is holding him back.

as for me, my chest grew the most when i dropped flat bench and concentrated on declines and some dips. my chest would not have broken the plateau it was in without declines imo.

voila!
-JS

 

[Ness]

You guys miss the point. Im just asking to see the results of one's theories. Not compare against a pros. If you think you have the best methods, then lets see it. Make us excited. Lets learn something.

The guys in this thread have brought studies and pictures. I have seen pictures of the guys in this thread who agrees with decline and dips as being the better chest building exercise. Then there are the others who call heavy-lifting "ego lifters" Hahahahahahahahaha

 

[inoverdrive]

without getting into a pissing match or senseless name calling the reason for declines is %of fiber activation. declines allow for more overload on the muscle as well, using a muscle the way it is designed to work will allow you to use greater load. i think we can both agree, since you pointed out the skinny kids, that the greater the load for the same number of reps will yield a larger muscle. dont get me wrong, there are a ton of guys with awesome chests that never do declines and never suffer injury from flat or incline presses. from the studies ive read along with my own development declines yielded greater results.

after working with Phil, i switched to DC for a little over a year. in that time i dropped declines and dips out of my rotation and overall chest development dropped. my upper chest wasnt as thick, and as a whole the pec wasnt ad full. now being back with Phil and doing only declines, development is at an all time high.


I will do my best to find the study, and along with that some anecdotal and photo evidence to support my arguement, however that may take the better part of today with my work schedual.

Tkav or anyone that does declines....How far down do you bring the bar, do you still bring it as low as your nipples (hate saying it that way).

 

[tkav1980]

Tkav or anyone that does declines....How far down do you bring the bar, do you still bring it as low as your nipples (hate saying it that way).

I gotta tell you, theres no right answer. Everyone is Mechanically different. just pinch your shoulder blades together in your back, and lower the weight in a slow controlled motion. if it feels comfortable and right keep going. you should feel like a giant spring being loaded with weight. thats the best way i can describe it. no discomfort or strange joint position. the only thing causing the discomfort should be the massive amount of weight being used. DO NOT USE 100% ROM! leave out the botom and top 10%.

 

[KTT]

Heres is an observation of someone who never does flat or inclines. Oh, I dont get into pissing matches, I get into debates. Can you post up some pics of your chest?

I think he does flat bench presses, bench press to the neck ( guillotine ) or floor presses during his training from time to time.

 

[Ness]

I think he does flat bench presses, bench press to the neck ( guillotine ) or floor presses during his training from time to time.

Well for triceps training perhaps, but not for chest, at least not anymore.

 

[zaven]

I think this is a great discussion, I believe the study was based on the stimulation of the whole muscle , so declines would not effect the entire muscle but yet do a lot for the bottom and middle of the muscle. Just the same that is some interesting stats.

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