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bloodwork study of 4iu GH vs peptides (similar to 2-3iu GH)

tregar

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This is a long-term study, and I will post to this once I get additional bloodwork done. I am comparing 4iu of chinese pharm grade HGH first for 3 weeks, with a washout period of 2 weeks to follow, to then compare with 100mcg mod grf(1-29) 100mcg + ghrp2 100mcg x three times a day. So far I have taken baseline IGF-1 reading for my age of 49 attached 2, and will have more reports on the way.

First time poster, 4 month long intensive reader, I know Johnjuanb1 knows about the following below, as I followed one of his posts one day to the 60 page topic, and read all of it:

Alpha6164 (medical doctor and bodybuilder, from the long 60 page thread here years ago, he performed nearly a dozen bloodtests and charged them to his medical practice):
I dont think peptides in usual 2-3x daily can equal 5iu of quality GH daily. Here is why. When i was on 5iu of Rips daily, my IGF was in the 600s. That is coming from a baseline of 160s. We know from three different tesamorelin studies that 2mg of tesamorelin raised IGFs 109-180 from basline. So if i started with 160 i could go to 260-340. Now that is a great number from baseline and can be almost a 200% increase and you will get fat loss benefits, anti-aging etc. But definitely not in the range of 5iu of synthetic GH.

My best friend and partner was on 100/100mcg of GRF/GHRP-2 three times a day and his IGF increased about 120 from baseline. So very in line with 2mg of tesamorelin.
Alpha6164 said
My best friend used GRF1-29/ghrp-2 100/100 three times daily and his IGF went from 167 to 272 in 8 weeks. Yes we are not getting IGFs in the 500-700s as with high dose GH but having a rise of 40% on such a small dose is pretty significant.
Alpha6164 in conclusion said:
Peptides will raise your GH as if you were on 2-3iu of synthetic GH daily. So it is great for people that wanna be on anti-aging dosage or for fast loss purposes.

Using a 100/100mcg combo 3x daily will raise your IGF similar to if you were on 2-3iu of GH daily. Most people on 4iu of GH will have IGFs in the high 300s to low 400s. But raising your IGF by 100-150 points from baseline can only help you with better recovery, healing, metabolism etc.
Attachment 1 is Alpha6164 medical doctors lab report after 100/100mcg of mod GRF(1-29)/GHRP-2 was taken SQ shot in stomach at 9:25am and at 10:05am blood draw (40min interval). To his surprise serum GH was 19.5!

Attachment 2: I just had my baseline IGF-1 test done at age 49, and it came back 227, [ref range is 67 to 205 ng/mL] which is high for my age group, a month and a half from from now, I will be taking the three times a day grf(1-29) + ghrp2 each at 100mcg, and will report back my bloodwork after being on it several weeks. I will do this after a washout period of 2 weeks or so after being on the 4iu of GH.

However, after being on 4iu of HGH chinese pharm grade for the past several days, I will report back my igf-1 bloodwork soon here (had it done recently), as I plan to do a comparison of peptides to 4iu of GH. I am currently on this 4iu of HGH for 3 weeks (started 4 days ago) and do another bloodwork 3 hours after the morning shot three weeks from now, so I can get a good stable IGF-1 reading, after letting it build up a long time. Keep in mind that I am on a 5 day 2 day off on the HGH, so I will have the bloods done on a friday after the 3 weeks on it to see what it reads.

I have to take the HGH in the morning as it disturbs my sleep causing me to wake up early at 2am in the morning (after going to bed at 9pm), when I normally sleep till 5am on workdays and 7:30am on non-work days, switching to injection in the morning has greatly helped with this, and I read it takes a week or two for the body to adjust so that you are then sleeping 8 to 10 hours a day from someone else who also went thru this. perhaps this is due to increased aldosterone stimulating the adrenal glands, I have no idea, but I believe this is what is going on.

HGH is somewhat expensive (about $155 with shipping) compared to the peptides (mod grf 1-29 + ghrp 2), but I want to know what the bloodwork reveals, because if I can raise my natural IGF-1 from 227 to say 350 with just the peptides (raise it 120 points like Alpha mentions is possible), then I will be very happy, and perhaps drop the HGH and just stick with peptides.

** In conclusion, Alpha said "Most people on 4iu of GH will have IGFs in the high 300s to low 400s." so with the bloowork am I doing, I'm trying to see if I am one of the lucky ones who comes back with igf that high on the 4iu of chinese pharm grade. However, if I could just use peptides and get a reading of 350 or so, that would also make me very happy instead, so that is what I am trying to discover.

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chadd7

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I've done a decent amount of igf testing over the past year and a half. If you're running 4iu of HGH you should be in the 500-600 range. Obviously this depends on your baseline. My last run with the black tops I came back at 645 on 4iu a day. If yours coming back at 300-400 your HGH is under dosed knowing your baseline is 227. You should be in the 600's.

A good way to guesstimate is take your baseline and add 100 points to the number of iu's your dosing. So your baseline is 227 and your running 4iu then 227+400= 627 Again this will get you close.
 

sillichilli

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Very cool. Thanks for bringing this back out because there is no chance I would ever find this in a 60 page thread
 

tregar

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Thank you chadd77 for the great info, much appreciated. I will report back with my igf-1 soon on the 4iu. Thanks sillichilli.

I am thinking of just going with 12mg of mk-677 in the morning instead, and run that for 3 weeks, then have my igf-1 tested instead of using the peptides.

Seems the mk-677 and peptides give a similar increase point-wise, so why not go with the super cheap mk-677 is my theory. I would love for a 100 point increase in my igf, that would bring it to 337 or so, I could live with that, and the sides from the mk-677 are supposed to be much reduced at 12mg. I have it ready to go in capsules pre-measured to 12mg, will run this instead of the peptides when done with the 4iu run and a short washout period.

bersage:
Yes, Fitraver saw an over 100 point increase while running it at 12.5mg (half dose).
 

tregar

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The Beauty Of Modern Science: Ibutamoren (MK-677) great article below:

The Beauty of Modern Science: Ibutamoren (MK-677) - Mind And Muscle
hxxp://mindandmuscle.net/articles/beauty-modern-science-ibutamoren-mk-677/

A few favorite quotes on Mk-677 at lower dosage:

Cybersage (from bodybuilding forum):
Yes, Fitraver saw an over 100 point increase while running it at 12.5mg (half dose).
Sandpig: (9/6/2017)
Drop down to 12.5 . Eventually the lethargy and other issues will slowly fade. Once they do, you can bump it up again. Took me two months at 12.5 before I could go to 25.
Elvia1023: (19,000 posts)
Everyone has covered things. Everyone responds differently but 25mg is far too much for you. Others are fine at that dose but most aren't. I would recommend 10-12.5mg and with that the side effects will be minimized but the results still there. You won't be as full and pumped but you will feel multiple times better. 10-12.5mg is great for muscle fullness, pumps, recovery, size and strength. I am fine at 10mg but once I get to 15mg and over I can barely function and the fatigue is unbearable. I actually prefer MK-677 to HGH in many ways... especially for gaining size.

RamboStallone (9/6/2017: 7,000 posts):
This is why I personally recommend starting at 5mg. MK677 increases gh/igf levels for a 24hr period from a single dose, this is longer than any other peptide or GH product, and in my opinion stronger than any gh supp including exogenous GH. I've used this stuff for years now and everytime I restart it anything over 5mg puts me on my ass. It's all the sides of increased gh/igf just more pronounced with MK677 then any other gh product including the effects. I blow up on the stuff immediately. The cts is unbearable. My recommendation, lower the dose brother.
 

lilgumby

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nice research ! Was talking to someone the other day if they new if anyone has tested these like this .
 

tregar

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I just got the results back after using a chinese generic (pharm grade) for only 3 days, I did the testing improperly, as I later read you are supposed to be "on it" for at least 2 weeks before testing IGF-1, but here are my results anyways. I will post the actual labs when I get home.

Anyhow, I took 4iu on Sunday, 3iu on monday, then took tuesday off (24 hours), then took a 4iu shot into shoulder in the morning and had bloods pulled 2 hours later, my baseline was igf-1 of 227 ng/ML and the bloodwork after the 4iu shot of GH came back 380 igf-1, so that was a rise of 153, not bad for only around 2 days "on". In the future I will use the stuff for 3 weeks straight at 4iu, and then have a proper "stable igf-1" bloodwork done.

I look at using the MK677 every now and then as a way to save money. Best article on MK677 I have read with charts and graphs from most of the studies: The Beauty of Modern Science: Ibutamoren (MK-677) http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/beauty-modern-science-ibutamoren-mk-677/

I have read of one person (Fitraver) who posted bloodwork with a 100 point IGF-1 increase with using just 10mg of MK677. I am just curious if I can get the same reading with 15mg after several weeks. Mr Saturated fat when from 232 igf1 to 312 igf1 on 25mg, thebigone went from 150 to 242 igf1 on 20mg and machine5150 went from 141 to 217 igf1 on 20mg. Sayitaintsoap went to 376 igf1 from an unknown baseline. If I could get a good reading off several weeks of MK-677, I think I would then alternate it monthly with the 4iu a day (5 on 2 off) of GH in order to save funds.

Summary:

Fitraver:
unknown igf1---->unknown igf1 (10mg mk677), noted 100 point increase.
Mr Saturated fat:
232 igf1---->312 igf1 (25mg mk677) = increase of 80 points
thebigone:
150 igf1---->242 igf1 (20mg mk677) = increase of 92 points
machine5150:
141 igf1-----217 igf1 (20mg mk677) = increase of 76 points
Sayitaintsoap:
unknown igf1---->376 igf1 (25mg mk677) = unknown increase

Anyhow, I now switched to only 15mg a day of Mk677, and will use this for 3 weeks, then have my bloodwork done so I can compare it to the 4iu of GH.

p.s. I have a question: I have read of several brothers who take a lesser dose of GH (around 2iu) with 10 to 15mg of Mk677 and report great progress, and that it saves them money. But I cannot understand how this works, as I would think the body would then detect the high amount of circulating igf-1 from the GH, which would then in turn tell the pulse from the mk677 to "not work". But this appears not to be the case...why is this so? MK677 can only reach say an increase of 75 to 100 extra IGF-1 points, and never above this as the body self-regulates it according to already circulating IGF. I just don'tunderstand how the two can be taken together and apparently work so well? I don't plan on doing this, just wondering.
 
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tregar

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Peptides:
Alpha6164's (medical doctor's best friend):
167 igf1---->272 igf1 (100mcg grf(1-29) + 100mcg ghrp2 x 3 times a day) = 105 point increase

Notice the similar point jumps between peptides and mk677, either one seems to reach a max of around 100 igf-1 points.
 
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tregar

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Here are the results of the research I did so far:

Summary:
------------
self:
227 igf1---->380 igf1 (4iu chinese generic pharm grade) = 153 point jump

Peptides:
-----------
Alpha6164's (medical doctor's best friend):
167 igf1---->272 igf1 (100mcg grf(1-29) + 100mcg ghrp2 x 3 times a day) = 105 point increase

MK677:
---------
Fitraver:
224 igf1---->359 igf1 (12.5mg mk677) = increase of 135 points *
MrSaturatedfat:
232 igf1---->312 igf1 (25mg mk677) = increase of 80 points**
thebigone:
150 igf1---->242 igf1 (20mg mk677) = increase of 92 points***
machine5150:
141 igf1-----217 igf1 (20mg mk677) = increase of 76 points****
Sayitaintsoap:
unknown igf1---->376 igf1 (25mg mk677) = unknown increase*****

*See Fitraver post "bloods on 12.5mg mk677"
**See Mrsaturatedfat post "37 days on mk677"
***See thebigone post "Humatrope,MK677 and other GH labs for you guys"
****See machine5150 post "MK677 Before and After Blood Work w/ IGF Levels Raised 53.9%"
*****See sayitaintsoap post "THT's MK-677 review and blood work"

**Notice the similar point jumps between peptides and mk677, either one seems to reach a max of around 100 igf-1 points.
 

Mike Arnold

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I've done a decent amount of igf testing over the past year and a half. If you're running 4iu of HGH you should be in the 500-600 range. Obviously this depends on your baseline. My last run with the black tops I came back at 645 on 4iu a day. If yours coming back at 300-400 your HGH is under dosed knowing your baseline is 227. You should be in the 600's.

A good way to guesstimate is take your baseline and add 100 points to the number of iu's your dosing. So your baseline is 227 and your running 4iu then 227+400= 627 Again this will get you close.

See bold above: When it comes to GH and IGF-1 levels, there is not a set formula. GH conversion rates can vary tremendously among individuals due to differences in the liver's ability to convert GH into IGF-1, which is determined by several factors.
 
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tregar

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Thanks Mike for the comments, much appreciated.

What we are finding is that many people using MK677 and having bloodwork done are testing around the equivalent of 3iu of GH, and some lucky individuals are testing as high as the equivalent of 4iu of GH.

I had baseline IGF-1 bloodwork done (227), tested 4iu of pharm grade GH after 3 days (380), and am currently on a 4 week run of 15mg MK677 by itself, when I will have bloodwork done in several weeks to do a comparison as well, when I will report back with bloodwork.

After a week, I am a fan of MK-677, I weigh my own caps (as the taste is terrible) with a 1mg scale, and prefer taking it 1st thing in the morning, function fine on it, have a sense of wellbeing, muscle-fullness + pumps, increased recovery from workouts + anti-aging benefits as I am 48. It does feel like several IU of GH to me. Personally, I sleep very well at night by taking it in the morning. Yes, there is some appetite increase, but the fat percentage has actually gone down by 1% allready on the MK677 + keto diet except for 25g carbs 1 hour pre-workout (always from crunchy peanut butter, glycemic index of 14) and postworkout on workout days. I consume 180g of protein a day, with 50g of that from met-rx daily and fats are kept high. Non-workout days carbs are kept to less than 20g. The peanut butter helps to give me energy for the workout. Also on TRT of 200mg test c a week as well, with 1/8th to 1/4mg armidex twice a week with each 100mg shot. I continue to loose fat while fat free mass is up. Also happy to report that blood pressure is normal. I own two books on HGH: "Grown young with HGH" and "Growth Hormone Secretagogues in Clinical Practice", both books have a discussion about the results and benefits of MK677, and how it was discovered.
 
Last edited:

tregar

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Great read as well with comments from Mike Arnold: "GH-mk677 combo"

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/peptides-growth-factors/139003-gh-mk677-combo.html

Mike Arnold:
I think it's a great combo, especially when trying to build muscle tissue. People do it all the time with great results, so it speaks for itself. It saves the person money, stops IGF-1 induced negative feedback from shutting down endogenous growth hormone production, ensures that the body has elevated levels of all the different GH isoforms, and provides a constant supply of GH throughout the day (compared to exo. GH, which only keeps GH blood levels elevated for roughly 8 hours).

MK-677 also has its own unique set of benefits, such as appetite stimulation and greater increases in muscle fullness when compared to exo. GH on an iu to iu basis.
 
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tregar

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1st lab is baseline igf-1 [227, high] (age 49, ref is 67 to 205 ng/mL)

2nd lab is igf-1 [380, high] after being on 4iu of Chinese pharm grade for only 2 days

3rd lab (upcoming in 3 weeks) is igf-1 after being on 20mg of mk677 for 3 weeks

lab.jpg

lab11.jpg
 

tregar

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Note: I have been taking the mk677 in the morning only and sleep very well at night (normal 8 hours plus), vivid dreams are often noticed (similar to GH). I get disrupted sleep (get less sleep) when I tried taking it before bed or even a few hours before bed, Keep in mind that the body needs some time to adjust to the compound I think as well. I had problems with lethargy in the past (when I tried mk677 months ago for a few days, then gave it up) since I was taking it at night and getting less sleep which I think led to tiredness during the day at work. My body does not react well to taking anything before bed. But when I take the MK677 in the morning, I get a good sense of well-being every day (my spouse even said I had been coming home every day after work in a good mood, and that she loved the change) and no lethargy issues thus far after a week. Everyone is different and you have to find what works for you.

Forgot to mention: I am taking the 20mg mk677 by itself in morning with two supplements: 200mcg huperzine A + NOW brand EGCg caffeine free green tea extract--400mg (contains 200mg EGCg/80% catechins, using these to help keep somatostatin down). Will report back with labs in a few weeks.
 
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tregar

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Thanks for replies rmtt, achilles415, sillichilli and cutler. Believe it or not, but I simply use the pure powder from auction sites, now I go directly to a site that used to be on auction, pm me if you need the place (no affiliation whatsoever), costs about 15 for a month supply at 20mg a day, compared to 170 for 100iu of Chinese pharm grade. High quality 1mg scales can be found on Amazon. I am impatient so I will be pulling the bloodwork this Friday after being on 20mg of mk677 for a week. I will post results 3 business days later. So far, I am a big fan of the stuff. Everyone reacts differently, Mike Arnold at one time posted he gets no lethargy from it, same here (lucky I guess in that sense). The taste is absolutely terrible, so I put it into empty green tea capsules. Thanks for following. From the results we are seeing, many are testing around the equivalent of 3 iu hgh, and some lucky people (those with beginning high igf-1 levels) are testing around the equivalent of 4iu of GH.
 

rmtt

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Thanks for replies rmtt, achilles415, sillichilli and cutler. Believe it or not, but I simply use the pure powder from auction sites, now I go directly to a site that used to be on auction, pm me if you need the place (no affiliation whatsoever), costs about 15 for a month supply at 20mg a day, compared to 170 for 100iu of Chinese pharm grade. High quality 1mg scales can be found on Amazon. I am impatient so I will be pulling the bloodwork this Friday after being on 20mg of mk677 for a week. I will post results 3 business days later. So far, I am a big fan of the stuff. Everyone reacts differently, Mike Arnold at one time posted he gets no lethargy from it, same here (lucky I guess in that sense). The taste is absolutely terrible, so I put it into empty green tea capsules. Thanks for following. From the results we are seeing, many are testing around the equivalent of 3 iu hgh, and some lucky people (those with beginning high igf-1 levels) are testing around the equivalent of 4iu of GH.
I get no lethargy from it either.....but I also use injectable B12.

I've never ran MK when not using B12.....but I can tell you my energy levels spiked big time when I first started supplementing with B12.

Sent from my LG-H871 using Tapatalk
 

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