Clomid is not good for PCT ?

[FilthyMick]

**broken link removed**

Which Anti-Estrogen Is Best for you?

Therefore, using arimidex (anastrozole) or aromasin (exemestane)during the entire cycle is a good idea if one can afford to. There are cheaper, generic versions of arimidex available now from overseas that work great. Arimidex is better than clomid due to its mechanism of action; it blocks conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Clomid is a weak estrogen that only acts to block estrogen receptors (as well as stimulate gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRh) release).

If you can't access arimidex, then clomid could be used. Novaldex can also be used and some have reported it may be more effective at GnRH stimulation than clomid. 5 This is because clomid is a weak estrogen and can act to suppress HPTA function.
I dont understand this at all, many people recommend clomid over nolvadex regardless of the sides even. So where does the truth actually lie? Is this guy right about it being suppressive?
I would like to know because im trying to put together a good pct

 

[tpd01883]

**broken link removed**

Which Anti-Estrogen Is Best for you?

Therefore, using arimidex (anastrozole) or aromasin (exemestane)during the entire cycle is a good idea if one can afford to. There are cheaper, generic versions of arimidex available now from overseas that work great. Arimidex is better than clomid due to its mechanism of action; it blocks conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Clomid is a weak estrogen that only acts to block estrogen receptors (as well as stimulate gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRh) release).

If you can't access arimidex, then clomid could be used. Novaldex can also be used and some have reported it may be more effective at GnRH stimulation than clomid. 5 This is because clomid is a weak estrogen and can act to suppress HPTA function.
I dont understand this at all, many people recommend clomid over nolvadex regardless of the sides even. So where does the truth actually lie? Is this guy right about it being suppressive?
I would like to know because im trying to put together a good pct

I have seen at least two studies where clomiphene citrate raised gnrh/lh/ total testosterone in men suffering from hypo gonadism. So I would say no it is not suppressive. I always use both nolva and clomid in my pct...

usually nolva 20mg ed for 4 weeks...clomid i do 100-150mg ed the first 3-4 days my system will be absent of hormones, then 100mg ed the first week, 100 or 50 the second depending how I feel, and 50mg ed the third week. If I feel I'm recovering I'll drop clomid after the third week and just keep on nolva for another week or so. If i'm not feeling recovered I stay on it through the 4th week but never longer.

 

[FilthyMick]

Oops, my bad i didnt read the entire article it actually states using clomid the last 2 weeks and having it out of your system in time to start a PCT with different compounds like nolvadex and an AI.

 

[FilthyMick]

This is my friends cycle and his pct.
Both are open for critique, thanks..

Weeks 1-10 600 Test E
Weeks 1-8 npp 150 eod
Weeks 1-4 Dbol 40mg ED
weeks 1-10 Arimidex 25mg ed
PCT
Weeks 10-12
1st day Clomid 250mg /.25mg arim

Following 6 days 100mg clomid /.25mg arim
Following 7 50mg clomid /.25mg arim

Weeks 12 - 14 Nolvadex 20 mg ED /.25 arim ed

 

[tpd01883]

if you run test e for 10 weeks...don't start pct til week 12, or two weeks after your last injection. Test e has a halflife of 7-10 days so even after two weeks it may still not be all out of your system, but it is ok to start at this point.

Typically people say AI's are for use of estrogen control on cycle when you may have excess testosterone converting to superfluous amounts of estrogen that will cause side effects such as bloat and gyno. The AI's prevent this. While the SERM's(nolva/clomid) on the other hand are used for PCT.

a Pretty standard PCT would look like this:

Following a long estered test cycle (e or c esters) starting two weeks after the last injection:

Week 1: nolva 40mg/clomid 100mg ed
Week 2: nolva 40mg/clomid 100mg ed
Week 3: nolva 20mg/clomid 50mg ed
Week 4: nolva 20mg/clomid 50mg ed

That would most likely even be overkill. Can always drop the clomid dose or drop it completely if you don't like the sides (spots in vision, mood swings) but you're prolly gonna get mood swings any way during post cycle as your hormone levels are all over the place.

By the way I notice you put arimidex 25mg ed...I assume you mean .25mg ed... And I don't see any reason why you would run clomid during the taper and then nolva afterwards...seems kind of pointless to me. Nolva and clomid are both SERM's with similar methods of action. Both are used medically to treat breast cancer. No reason to run any clomid during weeks 10-12 IMO. Just staying on the AI should be more than enough during that time. Thats a fairly short cycle anyways and even though nandrolone can be fairly suppressive, I doubt you'll have any problem recovering. If you wanted to run something during weeks 10-12 I would run HCG to return size to the testes before PCT, rather than clomid.

 

[MR. BMJ]

I wouldn't make it an either/or situation, if you can tolerate Clomid, then use it with your AI, preferably Aromasin, but if Arimidex is the only thing available to you, then run that.

BMJ

 

[Macro]

CLOMIPHENE is GOOD PCT.

Frontloading is just a way to increase side effects, lets put an end to this myth based practice. 50mg or less even straight through.

AI use during PCT, should be with a steroidal/suicidal inhibitor like exemestane, or the OTC AIFM (topical delivery- non-methylated). Use of anastrozole or letrozole may not allow for testicular priming (as these, letrozole in particular can highly suppress gonadal aromatase)

 

[KillerStack]

Use of anastrozole or letrozole may not allow for testicular priming (as these, letrozole in particular can highly suppress gonadal aromatase)

Can you elaborate on why suppressing gonadal aromatase is bad?

I seem to recall something SWALE said about elevated testicular aromatase in response to HCG being toxic to the testes?

Macro, what's you view on HCG, how should it be used in PCT or on-cycle to make recovery easier?

 

[Chipper Jones78]

Can you elaborate on why suppressing gonadal aromatase is bad?

I seem to recall something SWALE said about elevated testicular aromatase in response to HCG being toxic to the testes?

Macro, what's you view on HCG, how should it be used in PCT or on-cycle to make recovery easier?

BUMP

for Marco's response

 

[Gunsmith]

whats your oppinion emeric?

 

[Gunsmith]

i personaly have seen no benificial effects of running clomid at all for pct , i use hcg during the cycle then taper down for 2 week then stop , ive yet to have any troubles

 

[Jarconis]

if anything, ditch the nolva

 

[Chipper Jones78]

What's interesting is that as time goes on new way of doing things become more clear.

Nolva use to be like the 8th wonder of the world, more & more folks are now staying away form it all together.

CHip

 

[Jarconis]

yeah, lowers Igf lvls, thats no bueno

 

[tpd01883]

HCG still roundabouts the HPTA. It cuts off GnRH from stimulating the pituitary to produce lh/fsh by having similar action to LH. So while testosterone levels may become elevated and testicles will become full again, you have not recovered. Therefor it should be used during cycle to make recovery easier, always before pct never during. My rats use it every 4 weeks or so at 500mg eod for 4 weeks, and then run it at 500mg eod for the last 4 weeks before I start PCT to make recovery easier.

 

[Macro]

Can you elaborate on why suppressing gonadal aromatase is bad?

I seem to recall something SWALE said about elevated testicular aromatase in response to HCG being toxic to the testes?

Macro, what's you view on HCG, how should it be used in PCT or on-cycle to make recovery easier?

actually misspoke on that. not sure where that came from, though have found studies previously that indicated issues with high level gonadal suppression of aromatase (though they may have been more related to spermatogenesis). also there may have been an issue with lean individuals. will have to revisit that.


both DHT and estradiol can have toxic effects.



on cycle, though a short course prior to actual PCT to get things rolling is probably beneficial. Low doses on cycle, so as to avoid desensitization. though prolactin supression will help with that as well.

 

[Newman]

on cycle, though a short course prior to actual PCT to get things rolling is probably beneficial. Low doses on cycle, so as to avoid desensitization. though prolactin supression will help with that as well.

Just to clarify, are you saying that prolactin affects testicular desensitization? If so, then I can see that Prami is more important than simply being used for avoiding prolactin related gyno.

 

[BigMatt]

What about HCG and Nolvadex or aromasin combine

 

[Conciliator]

What's interesting is that as time goes on new way of doing things become more clear.

Nolva use to be like the 8th wonder of the world, more & more folks are now staying away form it all together.

The problem is that the "new way" of doing things can be misguided. Nolva has been taking a lot of unwarranted criticism lately. You have people like Eric Potratz misleading people to think that it will potentially exacerbate gyno from progestin-based steroids. It won't, since it's an estrogen antagonist in breast tissue and will down-regulate the progesterone receptor, in contrast to endometrial tissue. You also have people like Macro stating that Nolva acts as an "estrogen primer" in the pituitary. Again, it doesn't. There's no estrogen priming in males. Accordingly, Nolva is probably more anti-estrogenic at the pituitary than clomid, not less.

yeah, lowers Igf lvls, thats no bueno

It's not just nolva, but also clomid. SERMs in general lower IGF-1. One proposed mechanism is estrogen antagonism in the hypothalamus and pituitary. This can reduce GH output, which stimulates IGF-I expression in the liver. Another proposed mechanism is through estrogenic action in the liver, as estrogen itself is known to lower IGF-1 levels. However, that's the same reason SERMs have a beneficial effect on blood lipid values.

Nolvadex is still a prime choice for PCT. This recent study with large group sizes compared the effects of tamoxifen, toremifene, and raloxifene on the HPTA. After one and two months of treatment (the length of most PCTs), tamoxifen was superior to toremifene and raloxifene. After two months, 60mg/day of toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 and test from 498.96 to 709.79. In contrast, 20mg/day of tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 and test from 496.59 to 835.06. IMO, tamoxifen is a good choice for PCT.

 

[FilthyMick]

Can nolvadex be replaced with aromasin for pct?