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CRITIQUE MY CYCLE, IS TEST BEST, ETC.

Magnum

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So we've already had the debate about what's better, anabolics or androgens or better stated test or anabolics. The reason this has got me thinking again is that I see sooooo many threads on "critique my cycle" and I cringe everytime I see this, not because it's a dumb question, but because I know that there is going to be a ton of responses and almost every one will be different. Almost all of the time I see this I hardly ever see a pic of someone or what his goals may be or what he has done before, how long he's been lifting and so on. I think that it is a huge mistake for a guy to take 500 mgs of test for example and after 8 weeks and he stops growing (so he says) and then thinking that he has to up his dose to say 750 mgs. At that rate he will be up to 3 grams a week in about 6 months. Then comes the debate about the pros and how much they are using. If Ronnie Coleman had used this method, upping his dose every time he "thought" he was done growing he would be dead by now because most of his blood would be replaced by oil. Not staying on a lower dose for a more consistent period of time is THE biggest mistake most guys make. I'm not talking about never coming off, I mean that most guys never give their body enough time to "grow into a dose!!! This can take months and sometimes years. Let me give you an example even though I could give you many. This is someone that I have know for many years. He's about 5'8 about 230 and always in single digits as far as body fat goes. He's never been above 1500 mgs and I'll be honest he's been on more than off and he mainly uses test (which is best BUT get to that later). He's been on for the greater part of 20 years. This guy has competed and he's placed top 5 nationally. He's built better than most guys on here and I'm going by the pics that I have seen from some of the people that have posted on here. He's never done slin and when he competes he adds in some GH and an oral or two. My point is that he looks like this mainly because he has lifted for many years and has let himself grow into the dose. Now, he just didn't jump on 1500 mgs from day one. It took him many years to get to that dose. He's a big dude and looks great. I've seen so many elaborate cycles on here and they are NOT needed especially for someone who never has any intentions of competing. There is no magic cycle, the key is being consistent.

Now moving on to the question is test best. This would all depend on the person. Most guys on here want to stay big ALL the time. Most don't compete so I don't think that it would be wise to stay on deca for years on end or any other type of anabolic and this is even if you are cycling. I never saw the logic as to why so many guys would do a national level or even pro level cycle and never compete. Some of you guys are built awesome and I personally would be happy to stay looking like that the rest of my life. Pushing any further than a certain "look" is and has been the end to many people's lifting career. Years ago guys only competed once a year and when the show was over they came off completely. Most of the pics that you see of Arnold and Sergio etc were when they were in top shape around show time. Rarely did you ever see them in between shows and when you did they were a lot smaller and softer looking and were healthier I'm sure. These guys used mainly anabolics, BUT they took breaks. Not many people today take a total break off of drugs. Even when they are "off" they are on. Low does test, hcg, gh ei's slin are just some of the things that guy are using while "off". Everyone wants not only to be big, but to be big all the time. Is there a safe way to do this? Probably not, but I personally would rather cycle test alone if I had to pick something to use if I wanted to use and be on the rest of my life more or less. Let's face it, most guys are not able to live the lifestyle of a pro bodybuilder. Most have a full time job and a family to support so trying to copy what the pros do is never going to be possible. Got a lot more to say, but I'll post this up to now.
 
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Texas Ranger

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Great post, Magnum!! I like most of the guys on board will never compete. I'm in my mid 30's and just want to push the envelope a bit development-wise, but never at the expense of my health. I've never tried gear "yet", but I'm just taking my time trying to learn as much as possible from sensible vets before I jump into "The Game."
 

ironone1

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I only use 300mg of test (1cc) a week now most of the time and add some eq in every now and then. I stay on longer but don't feel the need to take higher doses because the results aren't that much different and the side effects of blood clots, high rbc's etc are way more at risk. And again, I'm not a pro so what sense would it make to stay on a gram+ a week?
 

chris250

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Great post ...Ok lets hear more..

What in your opinion is not needed in BB ? what drugs in your opinion do you think is not safe to mess with...???

Why do you think that the bodybuilder's of the late 80's early 90's had a certain look to them...I mean they had feather straitions, and paper thin skin...the muscles had a rounder more natural look...What ever happen to that ? Lee Haney, 93 Chris Cormier, 92-93 Flex Wheeler, 92-93 Kevin Levorne, even Dennis James in 93-94 had a great, great look...I miss those days....
 

Texas Ranger

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Great post ...Ok lets hear more..

What in your opinion is not needed in BB ? what drugs in your opinion do you think is not safe to mess with...???

Why do you think that the bodybuilder's of the late 80's early 90's had a certain look to them...I mean they had feather straitions, and paper thin skin...the muscles had a rounder more natural look...What ever happen to that ? Lee Haney, 93 Chris Cormier, 92-93 Flex Wheeler, 92-93 Kevin Levorne, even Dennis James in 93-94 had a great, great look...I miss those days....
The guys you just named had beautiful physiques. Then, toward the mid to late 90's something changed. And it wasn't for the better....
 

JETHRO TULL

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Good post.

It's fun to discuss this stuff. I'll talk about a fella I know well. When he turned 40 he pretty much decided to stay on 1cc of test a week until he tips over. He didn't see a good reason to have less testosterone in his body. lol. His flippin' joint's kill him and he looks better with even that small amount in his system.

The most test he EVER used was 2cc's or 500 mgs per week and that was twice in his life for a two week period. When he is "on" he throws in an oral for 6-8 weeks or something like e.q. at 300mgs per week. That's it.

[Never used insulin, tried gh 3 years ago for 8 weeks at 2iu's a day. Never used thyroid, none of that stuff]

This asshole is probably looking for a justification of his behavior, but can you humor my friend with a response?

Oh, and he does use eca on cardio mornings. Caffeine the rest of the time.

Thanks.
 

buselmo

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Great post ...Ok lets hear more..

What in your opinion is not needed in BB ? what drugs in your opinion do you think is not safe to mess with...???

Why do you think that the bodybuilder's of the late 80's early 90's had a certain look to them...I mean they had feather straitions, and paper thin skin...the muscles had a rounder more natural look...What ever happen to that ? Lee Haney, 93 Chris Cormier, 92-93 Flex Wheeler, 92-93 Kevin Levorne, even Dennis James in 93-94 had a great, great look...I miss those days....
I always hear this, but never see this...
what i see are people with less muscle mass, more fat, and pose much better without having bloated stomachs from cramming in 8000 cals per day in the offseason.

There is a HUGE difference in lighting of the contests, film quality... etc.
I notice that photographer from arnold's era always take the right shots, the right time, at the right angle... they knew what art is.
these days, i see the most retarded angles focus on someone's glutes, which i really don't want to see, and taken while all his body is fully relaxed and his gut sticking out, then they put it as a pic to describe the contest.

look at pumping iron when serge, arnold, and lou were pumping up before going on stage... then go look at the arnold classic backstage pumping photage... then tell me bodybuilders back then were better than today.

there are somethings no one wants to talk about... but come on... let's be honest here... the gear usage was almost the same (it really won't matter if you used deca and primo or whatever or if you used test... you'd probably look better on test)... but when you spend 15 years doing that, eating dbol by the handful, and not stuffing your face with calories, you'd "look" much bigger cuz your waist would be tiny. almost all of those guys were eating beef, eggs, heavy cream, some carbs but not much, and some protein supplement... i'm positive that if you ever told arnold to eat 2 grams per lb of protein he'd laugh in your face and tell you to rub motor oil on your body and go walk out in the street to grow muscle :D ...

arnold had a very wide waist and had a very weak back (notice how 99% of the pics are bis and chest, and i've only ever seen 1 lat spread pic of arnold). the only good back pic was a rear double bi where you couldn't ask for better lighting and a better angle

mike katz had a really weird structure and that's why he never made it big time and only got famous from pumping iron

if franco columbo didn't have that weird chest, he wouldn't look impressive

frank zane knew how to pose... i never found his physique impressive bodybuilding wise... nothing special... it would look great walking around the beach with that body... you'd look like a male fitness model... but step on stage today and people would think you have an eating disorder (which kind of like his diet for one of the olympias... anyone seen that?)

the only guy whom i found impressive was sergio oliva... what's really impressive was that the guy's advice was to drink lots of coffee while working out. and from his waist, he's obviously not a big eater.

all the old time bodybuilders i know say one thing... "you eat all that?? why in gods name would you do that? who the hell needs all that food?"
do you know what some of them consider high carb? a banana with your beef meal... a plate of potatos post workout.... half a plate of rice or bread pita with dinner... that's really high carb. today, this is low carb, practically keto :)

I really really relaly really hate to say this... but... eat your beef, eggs, and heavy cream with some carbs here and there... then let the gear do it's work over 10-15 years... and you'll be where your genetics wanted you to be while looking like a human being, and not a gorilla that swallowed a 70" rear projection tv set.

that's why in the old days you saw some tall guys who weighed 220 lbs and looked good... while today, they'd weigh 280lbs with the same structure. The amount of food (GH+slin also) is what made the difference... if they'd didn't care about weight, they'd look just as good as arnold's era, or even better, even with the slin and gh.
 

LATS

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I HAVE SAID THIS IN NUMEROUS POSTS.. if you start out at 500 mgs of test it should take you years.. years.. to get to 1000mgs of test if at all.. if you use 500 and see results then use it again.. the only time you should up the dose is when you have exhausted all other avenues.. what do i mean? well, is you training perfect?.. i mean perfect.. is your diet spot on?.. and i mean spot on.. do you avoid overtraining?.. (CORRECTING ANY ONE OF THOSE ISSUE WILL START THE GAINS AGAIN) if you can honestly answer yes to these questions then up the dose.. how much? go to 600 mgs.. why 1000mgs? if you go to 1000mgs where do you go from there? 2000mgs? silly.. baby steps guys.. incremental gains over time.. SMALL INCREASES IN DOSE.. not double in a year.. silly..

as for the guys of the past..i agree with buselmo.. the dose back then was not much different.. slin may have been avoided at that period by some but the anabolic dose was essentially the same.. the difference we do see if the use of hgh and slin being a bit more prominent.. but other than that???? not much..

a guy who came to my gym during the christmas vacation every year (seeing family) was greg deferro's old training partner.. he had pictures and all to back it up (for the young ones here greg was a great of the late 80's).. he told me what they bought and and what was used.. not alot of difference guys.. so when i hear people say the guys back then did not "abuse" i have to laugh..

chris asked a good question.. why the difference in physiques.. well. in my opinion levrone at his biggest was the best guy of that era.. just my opinion.. if he could have gotten his back up a bit he would have been the "man".. the distension on stage many times is the "carbing" up process back firing.. and not properly timed.. i also agree that sergio was the best of his era.. and he did eats quite a bit of protein.. but not many carbs.. musclemag years ago followed him around and told of his eating.. much eggs.. much chicken, beef, cottage cheese.. after all the protein was consumed he ate the carbs.. if he had room..lol..

recently evan centapoli (i am sure it is spelled wrong) stated that he did not consume a ton of carbs post workout like many.. he ingested protein and 30 grams of carbs after workout.. he said no more was needed and it was just a transporter of nutrients.. he felt 30 grams was enough to fill glyco stores also.. he has one of the tightest waists on the stage today... hhhmmm.. many consume 100 grams or more post workout now a days..:confused:
 

LATS

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arnold used a twisting pose in most shots to hide the wide waist.. he was good at that.. i would not say his back was bad.. but he did have a wide waist.. nothing he could do about that..
 

Magnum

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I've spent hours talking to Wayne Demilia and I we've touched upon what the guys back in the 70's have done and while test was used it was not used anywhere near the dose that people use today. He did say that without naming names that those guys relied a lot on orals. Deca Winstrol primo were also used. Dbol and drol were taken in pretty high dose. 800 to 1000 mgs of deca was bout average. Now remember that these guys never stayed on year round and when they came of they were OFF for real. I have personally witnessed guys back in the early 80's take dbol by the handful. I thought they would be lucky to live to hit 30. I used to rent a house for a while with a top AAU competitor back in the early 80's. I remember one day walking by his bedroom and he was getting ready to take his dbol. He threw a bunch in his hand and just as I thought he was about to count them out he tossed them in his mouth. Being a newbie virgin I was speechless. He just looked at me and laughed. :D At that point in my life all I had ever done was 2 Dianabol a day that my Dr had prescribed to me. Oh those were the days. :)
 

Magnum

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arnold used a twisting pose in most shots to hide the wide waist.. he was good at that.. i would not say his back was bad.. but he did have a wide waist.. nothing he could do about that..
Yeah wide waist, but he didn't have a distended gut and huge obliques. I'll bet his waist measurement was still inches small then Ronnie or Jay.
 

dr intensity

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I HAVE SAID THIS IN NUMEROUS POSTS.. if you start out at 500 mgs of test it should take you years.. years.. to get to 1000mgs of test if at all.. if you use 500 and see results then use it again.. the only time you should up the dose is when you have exhausted all other avenues.. what do i mean? well, is you training perfect?.. i mean perfect.. is your diet spot on?.. and i mean spot on.. do you avoid overtraining?.. (CORRECTING ANY ONE OF THOSE ISSUE WILL START THE GAINS AGAIN) if you can honestly answer yes to these questions then up the dose.. how much? go to 600 mgs.. why 1000mgs? if you go to 1000mgs where do you go from there? 2000mgs? silly.. baby steps guys.. incremental gains over time.. SMALL INCREASES IN DOSE.. not double in a year.. silly..

as for the guys of the past..i agree with buselmo.. the dose back then was not much different.. slin may have been avoided at that period by some but the anabolic dose was essentially the same.. the difference we do see if the use of hgh and slin being a bit more prominent.. but other than that???? not much..

a guy who came to my gym during the christmas vacation every year (seeing family) was greg deferro's old training partner.. he had pictures and all to back it up (for the young ones here greg was a great of the late 80's).. he told me what they bought and and what was used.. not alot of difference guys.. so when i hear people say the guys back then did not "abuse" i have to laugh..

chris asked a good question.. why the difference in physiques.. well. in my opinion levrone at his biggest was the best guy of that era.. just my opinion.. if he could have gotten his back up a bit he would have been the "man".. the distension on stage many times is the "carbing" up process back firing.. and not properly timed.. i also agree that sergio was the best of his era.. and he did eats quite a bit of protein.. but not many carbs.. musclemag years ago followed him around and told of his eating.. much eggs.. much chicken, beef, cottage cheese.. after all the protein was consumed he ate the carbs.. if he had room..lol..

recently evan centapoli (i am sure it is spelled wrong) stated that he did not consume a ton of carbs post workout like many.. he ingested protein and 30 grams of carbs after workout.. he said no more was needed and it was just a transporter of nutrients.. he felt 30 grams was enough to fill glyco stores also.. he has one of the tightest waists on the stage today... hhhmmm.. many consume 100 grams or more post workout now a days..:confused:
this part is the key
 

buselmo

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Yep no doubt about it, Arnold's back sucked.
LOL!!!
don't get me wrong magnum... i should've stated that better... it was "weaker" or less impressive than the rest of him.
I just don't see it as something that stands out.
 

Magnum

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LOL!!!
don't get me wrong magnum... i should've stated that better... it was "weaker" or less impressive than the rest of him.
I just don't see it as something that stands out.
I know bro I was just messin. :D
 

ironone1

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I've spent hours talking to Wayne Demilia and I we've touched upon what the guys back in the 70's have done and while test was used it was not used anywhere near the dose that people use today. He did say that without naming names that those guys relied a lot on orals. Deca Winstrol primo were also used. Dbol and drol were taken in pretty high dose. 800 to 1000 mgs of deca was bout average. Now remember that these guys never stayed on year round and when they came of they were OFF for real. I have personally witnessed guys back in the early 80's take dbol by the handful. I thought they would be lucky to live to hit 30. I used to rent a house for a while with a top AAU competitor back in the early 80's. I remember one day walking by his bedroom and he was getting ready to take his dbol. He threw a bunch in his hand and just as I thought he was about to count them out he tossed them in his mouth. Being a newbie virgin I was speechless. He just looked at me and laughed. :D At that point in my life all I had ever done was 2 Dianabol a day that my Dr had prescribed to me. Oh those were the days. :)
Script for d-bol? How did you fanaggle that one, lol. I better not go there....:D
 

chris250

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I always hear this, but never see this...
what i see are people with less muscle mass, more fat, and pose much better without having bloated stomachs from cramming in 8000 cals per day in the offseason.

There is a HUGE difference in lighting of the contests, film quality... etc.
I notice that photographer from arnold's era always take the right shots, the right time, at the right angle... they knew what art is.
these days, i see the most retarded angles focus on someone's glutes, which i really don't want to see, and taken while all his body is fully relaxed and his gut sticking out, then they put it as a pic to describe the contest.

look at pumping iron when serge, arnold, and lou were pumping up before going on stage... then go look at the arnold classic backstage pumping photage... then tell me bodybuilders back then were better than today.

there are somethings no one wants to talk about... but come on... let's be honest here... the gear usage was almost the same (it really won't matter if you used deca and primo or whatever or if you used test... you'd probably look better on test)... but when you spend 15 years doing that, eating dbol by the handful, and not stuffing your face with calories, you'd "look" much bigger cuz your waist would be tiny. almost all of those guys were eating beef, eggs, heavy cream, some carbs but not much, and some protein supplement... i'm positive that if you ever told arnold to eat 2 grams per lb of protein he'd laugh in your face and tell you to rub motor oil on your body and go walk out in the street to grow muscle :D ...

arnold had a very wide waist and had a very weak back (notice how 99% of the pics are bis and chest, and i've only ever seen 1 lat spread pic of arnold). the only good back pic was a rear double bi where you couldn't ask for better lighting and a better angle

mike katz had a really weird structure and that's why he never made it big time and only got famous from pumping iron

if franco columbo didn't have that weird chest, he wouldn't look impressive

frank zane knew how to pose... i never found his physique impressive bodybuilding wise... nothing special... it would look great walking around the beach with that body... you'd look like a male fitness model... but step on stage today and people would think you have an eating disorder (which kind of like his diet for one of the olympias... anyone seen that?)

the only guy whom i found impressive was sergio oliva... what's really impressive was that the guy's advice was to drink lots of coffee while working out. and from his waist, he's obviously not a big eater.

all the old time bodybuilders i know say one thing... "you eat all that?? why in gods name would you do that? who the hell needs all that food?"
do you know what some of them consider high carb? a banana with your beef meal... a plate of potatos post workout.... half a plate of rice or bread pita with dinner... that's really high carb. today, this is low carb, practically keto :)

I really really relaly really hate to say this... but... eat your beef, eggs, and heavy cream with some carbs here and there... then let the gear do it's work over 10-15 years... and you'll be where your genetics wanted you to be while looking like a human being, and not a gorilla that swallowed a 70" rear projection tv set.

that's why in the old days you saw some tall guys who weighed 220 lbs and looked good... while today, they'd weigh 280lbs with the same structure. The amount of food (GH+slin also) is what made the difference... if they'd didn't care about weight, they'd look just as good as arnold's era, or even better, even with the slin and gh.
Buselmo,

I get what your saying...Yes, I agree the bodybuilders you mention (Arnold, Sergio, Zane, Columbo, ect, 70's and early 80's guys) dont look near as good as the guys today...But, I was thinking more in line of the 90's guys (early part)...Early, Flex, early Cormier, or even Cormier of late 90's...Levorne in his first few years...I love the look of that time...those guys had a certain look that was unbeatable...I do agree the drug use even then was probably about the same...Im sure those guys where even using insulin and Gh to...along with high doses of whatever they could get there hands on...but still I like how they looked on stage...just cleaner more crisp lines, feather tri's and delts....(Flex in his rookie year, and 1 or 2 years after that) But by the late 90's that look was gone...it went to the mass monsters (dorian, Levorne got alot bigger, wheeler to) ....
 

prime

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Script for d-bol? How did you fanaggle that one, lol. I better not go there....:D
Back in the 80's any sport doctor could prescribe any anabolic without the government going nuts. I personally got a script for Anadrol when i was around 20. Was weird walking into a phamacy and having the pharmacist look at you weird as he rang up the drol.
 
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Magnum

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Script for d-bol? How did you fanaggle that one, lol. I better not go there....:D
It was a script for Dianabol. I was 19 at the time. Doc said he'd do it for me once. I got one the of the last bottles to cause it was discontinued and I got what the pharmacy happen to be able to find.
 

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