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Discs can heal!

Skinny01

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I have first hand experienced with a friend of mines herniated disk completely healing through chiropractic care.
 

Ashop

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Ironic that I just had this same discussion this morning over breakfast with a very good friend of mine. We both have herniated discs and we are very hopeful that they will heal on their own with proper care and therapy.
 

gotgame

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This is very straight forward guys.. let me try to clarify this once and for all.

1. After a disc herniates the initial release of chemicals causes nerve pain. So it may be a combo of chemical irritation and mass effect.

2. After a while the chemical irritant resolves ( no matter what you do)

3. Mass effect may or may not resolve as it depends on the condition of the underlying disc and if its a bulge vs extrusion. If the underlying disc is well hydrated then when it dessicates the mass effect on the nerve will decrease. If all ready dessicated it is NOT going to heal or get smaller via dessication. It can get smaller via resorption of a sequestered extrusion.

4. If extrusion is too big it WILL NOT heal. Not debating this. Ive seen thousands and followed thousands..doesnt happen.

5. If disc is hydrated and its a bulge or not too big of an extrusion you can try traction to create some internal neg pressure and hopefully pull some of disc back in and increase local blood flow.

6. Annular fissures from a bulging disc heal on there own. This isnt something new. Its not from chiro care. its not from a supplement.. they heal due to good blood flow. It happens so stop attributing it to chiro manipulations which are BS for helping that. Traction may help though if indicated.

7. During initial irritating insult to the nerve root steroids can help and they can help from chronic compressive irritation. Dont be afraid to see if they will help you.

8. If you wait too long you are screwed. Once you have bad nerve damage it is unlikely to ever come back.


You need to know what is wrong and how to treat it. None of this guessing stuff, chiro care is NOT going to help, and even if it helped you its like me saying ohh hears a rock it will keep lions away....and when you dont see any lions you think the rock is working. Chiro care has a purpose for specific muscular issues and if they want to provide traction for a situation where traction might be usefull then that might work...but this whole spine manipulation thing is BS..you cant move your damn spine lol.


Ive been contacted by probably a dozen guys on this board asking me to review there back MRIs. Many of them were doing things that were never going to help there conditions such as chiro care or curcumin or stuff. U need to know what you are dealing with and do the appropriate managment. I will never rush to back surgery but knowing when things will heal, when they might heal, or when they wont is important
 

devenidas

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This is very straight forward guys.. let me try to clarify this once and for all.

1. After a disc herniates the initial release of chemicals causes nerve pain. So it may be a combo of chemical irritation and mass effect.

2. After a while the chemical irritant resolves ( no matter what you do)

3. Mass effect may or may not resolve as it depends on the condition of the underlying disc and if its a bulge vs extrusion. If the underlying disc is well hydrated then when it dessicates the mass effect on the nerve will decrease. If all ready dessicated it is NOT going to heal or get smaller via dessication. It can get smaller via resorption of a sequestered extrusion.

4. If extrusion is too big it WILL NOT heal. Not debating this. Ive seen thousands and followed thousands..doesnt happen.

5. If disc is hydrated and its a bulge or not too big of an extrusion you can try traction to create some internal neg pressure and hopefully pull some of disc back in and increase local blood flow.

6. Annular fissures from a bulging disc heal on there own. This isnt something new. Its not from chiro care. its not from a supplement.. they heal due to good blood flow. It happens so stop attributing it to chiro manipulations which are BS for helping that. Traction may help though if indicated.

7. During initial irritating insult to the nerve root steroids can help and they can help from chronic compressive irritation. Dont be afraid to see if they will help you.

8. If you wait too long you are screwed. Once you have bad nerve damage it is unlikely to ever come back.


You need to know what is wrong and how to treat it. None of this guessing stuff, chiro care is NOT going to help, and even if it helped you its like me saying ohh hears a rock it will keep lions away....and when you dont see any lions you think the rock is working. Chiro care has a purpose for specific muscular issues and if they want to provide traction for a situation where traction might be usefull then that might work...but this whole spine manipulation thing is BS..you cant move your damn spine lol.


Ive been contacted by probably a dozen guys on this board asking me to review there back MRIs. Many of them were doing things that were never going to help there conditions such as chiro care or curcumin or stuff. U need to know what you are dealing with and do the appropriate managment. I will never rush to back surgery but knowing when things will heal, when they might heal, or when they wont is important
I am glad I raised the thread. GG is in a mood to drop some mental jewels today in great detail. Read on guys.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

tenny

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it MAY heal enough for you to THINK its healed....

but it NEVER goes away.....ever.

protect that back kids....you cant buy another one...

:cool:
 

Skinny01

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This is very straight forward guys.. let me try to clarify this once and for all.



1. After a disc herniates the initial release of chemicals causes nerve pain. So it may be a combo of chemical irritation and mass effect.



2. After a while the chemical irritant resolves ( no matter what you do)



3. Mass effect may or may not resolve as it depends on the condition of the underlying disc and if its a bulge vs extrusion. If the underlying disc is well hydrated then when it dessicates the mass effect on the nerve will decrease. If all ready dessicated it is NOT going to heal or get smaller via dessication. It can get smaller via resorption of a sequestered extrusion.



4. If extrusion is too big it WILL NOT heal. Not debating this. Ive seen thousands and followed thousands..doesnt happen.



5. If disc is hydrated and its a bulge or not too big of an extrusion you can try traction to create some internal neg pressure and hopefully pull some of disc back in and increase local blood flow.



6. Annular fissures from a bulging disc heal on there own. This isnt something new. Its not from chiro care. its not from a supplement.. they heal due to good blood flow. It happens so stop attributing it to chiro manipulations which are BS for helping that. Traction may help though if indicated.



7. During initial irritating insult to the nerve root steroids can help and they can help from chronic compressive irritation. Dont be afraid to see if they will help you.



8. If you wait too long you are screwed. Once you have bad nerve damage it is unlikely to ever come back.





You need to know what is wrong and how to treat it. None of this guessing stuff, chiro care is NOT going to help, and even if it helped you its like me saying ohh hears a rock it will keep lions away....and when you dont see any lions you think the rock is working. Chiro care has a purpose for specific muscular issues and if they want to provide traction for a situation where traction might be usefull then that might work...but this whole spine manipulation thing is BS..you cant move your damn spine lol.





Ive been contacted by probably a dozen guys on this board asking me to review there back MRIs. Many of them were doing things that were never going to help there conditions such as chiro care or curcumin or stuff. U need to know what you are dealing with and do the appropriate managment. I will never rush to back surgery but knowing when things will heal, when they might heal, or when they wont is important


http://www.vihealth.com/Rehab-Cente...pulation-in-the-treatment-of-disc-herniation/

"Magnetic resonance imaging and clinical follow-up: study of 27 patients receiving chiropractic care for cervical and lumbar disc herniations Ben Eliyahu, DJ. JMPT Vol. 19 No. 19 Nov/Dec 1996. This study suggests that chiropractic care may reverse disc herniation. Twenty-seven patients with MRI documented and symptomatic disc herniations of the cervical or lumbar spine were given chiropractic spinal care, flexion distraction, physiotherapy and rehabilitative exercises. Post-care MRIs revealed that 63% of the patients had a reduced size or completely resorbed disc herniation. 78% of the patients were able to return to work in their pre-disability occupations. From the author’s abstract: This prospective case series suggests that chiropractic care may be a safe and helpful modality for the treatment of cervical and lumbar disc herniations. A random, controlled, clinical trial is called for to further substantiate the role of chiropractic care for the non-operative management of intervertebral disc herniation."
 
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Gravyv

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I've been dealing with back problems for awhile now. I've already had one lower back surgery. I'm trying to avoid another. I've tried all of the traditional stuff and they didn't "heal" my back only maybe helped with some pain.

I just had to compromise and sworn off all heavy lifting which stresses my lower back (no freeweight deads/squats/rows, etc). My back hasn't gotten worse nor better. I go in every couple of months for trigger point injections and sometimes cortisone.
 

ubermensch

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In my personal account, X-rays showed a herniated disk.
One year later, chiropractor took x-rays, still there.
3 months of chiropractic care? gone.

coincidence? Probably Not...
What kind of modalities were used
 

pickapeck

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Stretching and Yoga helped me and the view of yoga pants is nice. But squats and deads are out now. Sprints and step mill are in.
 

gotgame

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Herniated Disc - Research Supporting Chirpractic Manipulation In The Treatment Of Disc Herniation - Rehab CenterRehab Center

"Magnetic resonance imaging and clinical follow-up: study of 27 patients receiving chiropractic care for cervical and lumbar disc herniations Ben Eliyahu, DJ. JMPT Vol. 19 No. 19 Nov/Dec 1996. This study suggests that chiropractic care may reverse disc herniation. Twenty-seven patients with MRI documented and symptomatic disc herniations of the cervical or lumbar spine were given chiropractic spinal care, flexion distraction, physiotherapy and rehabilitative exercises. Post-care MRIs revealed that 63% of the patients had a reduced size or completely resorbed disc herniation. 78% of the patients were able to return to work in their pre-disability occupations. From the author’s abstract: This prospective case series suggests that chiropractic care may be a safe and helpful modality for the treatment of cervical and lumbar disc herniations. A random, controlled, clinical trial is called for to further substantiate the role of chiropractic care for the non-operative management of intervertebral disc herniation."
if you would like to have a discussion then please read more what i wrote regarding disc characterizations, traction ,and the follow up studies from that you posted. You did not look at follow up studies comparing non traction chiro care for cervical spine vs non chiro care. there was no differnce in MRI findings for those studies.

Please re-read what i posted and I would be happy to discuss on a more specific level
 

gotgame

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In my personal account, X-rays showed a herniated disk.
One year later, chiropractor took x-rays, still there.
3 months of chiropractic care? gone.

coincidence? Probably Not...
Yes it is. X rays can only see osteophytic foraminal narrowing. It cannot see non disc osteophyte complexes. We see it ALL the time where the findings change x ray to x ray due to technique on the oblique views but when they get the CT or MRI its of course still there.
 

gotgame

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it MAY heal enough for you to THINK its healed....

but it NEVER goes away.....ever.

protect that back kids....you cant buy another one...

:cool:
Wasn't gonna get to that level but yes that is actually very true. Its like if you cut yourself the scar tissue is always weaker then the native tissue. same goes for the annular fibrosis. with special 3T sequences we can see much better then the 1.5's and during surgery you can also see that "healed" area. You are then much more likely to reherniate.
 

Skinny01

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if you would like to have a discussion then please read more what i wrote regarding disc characterizations, traction ,and the follow up studies from that you posted. You did not look at follow up studies comparing non traction chiro care for cervical spine vs non chiro care. there was no differnce in MRI findings for those studies.



Please re-read what i posted and I would be happy to discuss on a more specific level


Chiropractic adjustments, cervical traction and rehabilitation correct cervical spine herniated disc. Breakiron G. Journal of Chiropractic Case Reports. Vol. 1 No. 1 Jan 1993. Abstract: A 43 year old female suffered C5-6 and C6-7 nuclear herniations as a result of an automobile collision. The patient suffered a hyperextension/hyperflexion trauma to the cervical spine which resulted in a reversal of her cervical lordosis, thus causing extensive soft tissue damage and herniations as seen on magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) procedures. Specific spinal adjustments were administered with a hand held adjusting instrument to correct her posterior and lateral cervical subluxations. A therapeutic exercise program was prescribed along with cervical traction and soft tissue rehabilitation. After 6 months, a repeat MRI revealed that there was a mild posterior bulging of the C5-6 level in the mid line with no evidence for significant disc herniation. The C5-6 area appears to be essentially normal.

Resorption of a herniated cervical disc following chiropractic treatment utilizing the atlas orthogonal technique: a case report. Robinson, G.Kevin. Abstracts from the 14th annual upper cervical spine conference Nov 22-23, 1997 Life University, Marietta, Ga. Pub. In Chiropractic Research Journal, Vol. 5, No.1, spring 1998. A case of a herniated cervical disc as diagnosed by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) utilizing chiropractic care (atlas orthogonal technique). Comparative MRI post adjustment revealed complete resolution of the herniated cervical disc. This is the case of a 44 year-old man whose symptoms were as follows: severe neck pain, constant burning, left arm pain and left shoulder pain plus paresthesia in the index finger of the left hand. Patient also had diminished grip strength on left hand using dynamometer testing. Tests also revealed hyporeflexive biceps and triceps on the left as well as a C6 and C7 sensory deficit on the left. The MRI scan revealed a large left lateral herniated disc at the C6-7 level. By the fifth week of care the patient’s symptoms of severe neck, shoulder, and arm pain were completely resolved. The patient’s numbness and grip strength improved consistently during the following six months. Comparative MRI obtained 14 months following the initial exam revealed total resolution of the herniated cervical disc.

The point is... In your statement you said chiropractic care would NOT HELP, but it seems all the studies beg to differ. If its only the traction therapy thats helping, not spinal manipulation thats a different discussion.

If a chiropractor offers traction therapy, and traction therapy works. Then chiropractic care can help/resolve disc herniations.

As far as spinal manipulation goes... There is study upon study upon study that proves its as effective and cheaper than traditional medicine to help with back pain. Depending on the underlying issue of course.
 
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gotgame

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Chiropractic adjustments, cervical traction and rehabilitation correct cervical spine herniated disc. Breakiron G. Journal of Chiropractic Case Reports. Vol. 1 No. 1 Jan 1993. Abstract: A 43 year old female suffered C5-6 and C6-7 nuclear herniations as a result of an automobile collision. The patient suffered a hyperextension/hyperflexion trauma to the cervical spine which resulted in a reversal of her cervical lordosis, thus causing extensive soft tissue damage and herniations as seen on magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) procedures. Specific spinal adjustments were administered with a hand held adjusting instrument to correct her posterior and lateral cervical subluxations. A therapeutic exercise program was prescribed along with cervical traction and soft tissue rehabilitation. After 6 months, a repeat MRI revealed that there was a mild posterior bulging of the C5-6 level in the mid line with no evidence for significant disc herniation. The C5-6 area appears to be essentially normal.

Resorption of a herniated cervical disc following chiropractic treatment utilizing the atlas orthogonal technique: a case report. Robinson, G.Kevin. Abstracts from the 14th annual upper cervical spine conference Nov 22-23, 1997 Life University, Marietta, Ga. Pub. In Chiropractic Research Journal, Vol. 5, No.1, spring 1998. A case of a herniated cervical disc as diagnosed by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) utilizing chiropractic care (atlas orthogonal technique). Comparative MRI post adjustment revealed complete resolution of the herniated cervical disc. This is the case of a 44 year-old man whose symptoms were as follows: severe neck pain, constant burning, left arm pain and left shoulder pain plus paresthesia in the index finger of the left hand. Patient also had diminished grip strength on left hand using dynamometer testing. Tests also revealed hyporeflexive biceps and triceps on the left as well as a C6 and C7 sensory deficit on the left. The MRI scan revealed a large left lateral herniated disc at the C6-7 level. By the fifth week of care the patient’s symptoms of severe neck, shoulder, and arm pain were completely resolved. The patient’s numbness and grip strength improved consistently during the following six months. Comparative MRI obtained 14 months following the initial exam revealed total resolution of the herniated cervical disc.

The point is... In your statement you said chiropractic care would NOT HELP, but it seems all the studies beg to differ. If its only the traction therapy thats helping, not spinal manipulation thats a different discussion.

If a chiropractor offers traction therapy, and traction therapy works. Then chiropractic care can help/resolve disc herniations.

As far as spinal manipulation goes... There is study upon study upon study that proves its as effective and cheaper than traditional medicine to help with back pain. Depending on the underlying issue of course.
In my post I specifically mentioned chiro's who may offer traction vs those who offer manipulation. that is why i asked you do re-read it as you may have missed where i said that at the end.

I also discussed the natural course of healing of discs. The thing is that even if they didnt have any therapy the studies showing the "nontreated" controlled groups also showed MRI improvements if they were bulges and not extrusions on a background of disc dessication.

So chiro manipulation does not offer benefit. If the person has home traction, PT traction, or from whomever and does it appropiately and the disc findings are amendable to it then it MAY help. In traditional chiropratice care i am referencing manipulation. I also hate when chiros offer traction to a case that will not be helped by it..either because they dont know better or because they just want the money
 

gotgame

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To clarify- Traction may help only in certain circumstances.

The controlled studies have NEVER shown any MRI evidence of benefit of chiropratic manipulation for lumbar or cervical disc bulge through extrusion. The key word is controlled studies. Once those were done the chiros i know just laughed and were like yea soo..it was gonna heal on its own but we helped them via muscular issues and helped some feel better from that. And that last part is true..but not related to the disc.
 

gotgame

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BTW if a patient of mine has muscular pain i refer them to PT if i dont feel like they can correct it on there own. I have never referred anyone to a chiro directly although i have not recommended against it for the lumbar spine if patients want to. i will always recommend against it for the c-spine though as manipulation of the c spine with underlying pathology can be dangerous.

I do work directly with chiros who refer patients to me though for pain managment stuff. The good ones will have an active discussion with me regarding treatments and what can and cant be helped via a PT like approach and conservative means.
 

Skinny01

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In my post I specifically mentioned chiro's who may offer traction vs those who offer manipulation. that is why i asked you do re-read it as you may have missed where i said that at the end.



I also discussed the natural course of healing of discs. The thing is that even if they didnt have any therapy the studies showing the "nontreated" controlled groups also showed MRI improvements if they were bulges and not extrusions on a background of disc dessication.



So chiro manipulation does not offer benefit. If the person has home traction, PT traction, or from whomever and does it appropiately and the disc findings are amendable to it then it MAY help. In traditional chiropratice care i am referencing manipulation. I also hate when chiros offer traction to a case that will not be helped by it..either because they dont know better or because they just want the money


I couldn't find the studies comparing traditional chiropractic care to chiropractic care with traction. But i'll just have to take your word for it.

Agreed there are always going to be shitty people doing shitty things for money. There are also ALOT of shitty chiropractors... Thats the problem. The difference between a good chiropractor and a bad chiropractor is huge. I've been to a good bit of them, and some offer no relief from pain, and others you walk out feeling like a brand new person. Its all about knowledge, different techniques, and types of manipulation.
 
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