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Do you feel that refeed days are necessary?

Lenny

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How many of your incorporate re-feed days or one cheat meal per week in your prep? Do you begin your prep with the re-feed days or do add them in there the closer you get to the show?

I was doing this for the first 6 weeks, but took them out for the final 6 weeks. Do you think you need to be lean enough first before you incorporate re-feed days?

I was thinking maybe if you get lean enough you can incorporate them back in there.

I plan on sticking to the next 5 weeks without any, but just wondering your view on re-feed days (well, unless my body screams for some rice)? I think being conservative even the last week with regards to carbs and water manipulation is the smarter way to go...eliminate the unpredictability of the body.

Any thoughts??
 
Well first this depends on your exact diet which you have not laid out. (re-feed, high carb days, cheat days) are 100% necessary some times. It doesn't matter if your 16 weeks out or 6 weeks out or 2 weeks out. If your body is depleted of muscle glycogen, and you still have some strenuous work outs ahead, you better carb up. If your progress is halting from too many low/no carb days consecutively you better carb up. If you're progress is halting from a standard clean carb cycling diet, you may want to have a cheat day.
 
i don't compete, but believe that i read somewhere that the refeeds help you to figure out how long it takes for your body to respond to carbs/clear the water whcih would help you in the water manipulation right before the competition.
 
A bodybuilder buddy of mine is helping me out for my first show in august, he has me on 300 grs of carbs morning , bwo, pwo, and I refeed every 4th day bumping in 700-800 grs of carbs and some sugars , but I completely drop the fats. I feel great after doing the whole refeed thing I feel strong as hell the day I refeed and the next day and its gotten me in the best shape of my life , 248 - 12% , 6''0
 
Yes.

And they should be more frequent, and higher in carbs, the closer you get to the competition (assuming you're leaning out as planned).
 
If you are doing everything correctly then absolutely no way........if you are not then yes, refeed..........

Phil, do you mean that if your carbs and fats are in the right proportions to begin with then no refeed? Or are you just saying super low carbs throughout with no re feed? I just want to make sure I understood your post correctly
 
Phil, do you mean that if your carbs and fats are in the right proportions to begin with then no refeed? Or are you just saying super low carbs throughout with no re feed? I just want to make sure I understood your post correctly

If I may Phil....

I think what Phil is saying is that if you simply eat when youre hungry then you dont have to worry about underfeeding, overfeeding, refeeding, etc.

In other words, keep it simple...quit making everything so complicated for yourself.
 
Well first this depends on your exact diet which you have not laid out. (re-feed, high carb days, cheat days) are 100% necessary some times. It doesn't matter if your 16 weeks out or 6 weeks out or 2 weeks out. If your body is depleted of muscle glycogen, and you still have some strenuous work outs ahead, you better carb up. If your progress is halting from too many low/no carb days consecutively you better carb up. If you're progress is halting from a standard clean carb cycling diet, you may want to have a cheat day.

Dave, below is what I was doing the last couple weeks:

Meal 1:
4 eggs
2-4 turkey patties

Meal 2:
Protein Shake

Meal 3:
Protein Shake

Meal 4:
10-12 Oz. tilipia

Meal 5:
2-3 hard boiled eggs (just because I am hungry)

Meal 6:
10-12 oz. lean beef (96/4)
1 cup of broccoli
Spicey mustard mixed into the mix

Meal 7:
One lightly salted rice cake (sometime I use a rice cake)
1-2 Tbspn of Natty Peanut butter

Meal 8:
If still hungry....I will eat 2-4 hard boiled eggs again! I usually fall asleep before this.

The first 6 weeks I was eating 2 cups of rice with my lean beef meal and all my protein shakes were made with 10oz. skim milk, and I was eating edaname roasted soy nuts (4oz). I have dropped all this the last couple of weeks. My weight dropped initially from 181lbs. - 173lbs. I have maintained 173lbs. on the diet above. I feel that I will stick to the above diet till my body calls out for some carbs. I will be 5 weeks this Saturday. The thing is that I feel alright with my workouts, obviously getting cravings, but that seems to be mostly a mental thing. I figured I would push this diet and slowly add carbs back in there the final week, maybe experiment with a re-feed day 3 weeks out to see how my body reacts.

Hope that gives you a little description of what I have been doing in regards to eating.
 
Yes.

And they should be more frequent, and higher in carbs, the closer you get to the competition (assuming you're leaning out as planned).

Shelby, what do you consider lean enough...I feel that I need to be ripping out of my skin first (mostly a mental thing). I have been really interested in your carb cycle plan. Obviously, I did not do it that way this time around, but may possibly try that in the future. At this point, I figured I better stick this out and add the carbs back in there slowly the last week.
 
I agree with Shelby and Dave 19.

The refeed has two purposes: to replenish muscle glycogen and to stimulate the metabolism. If you are running down your glycogen stores and as a result your workouts are going to shit, then refeeds are a great idea. Similarly, as the prep progresses and the cals get lower and lower (and you get leaner and leaner) the body lowers your metabolism in an attempt to maintain homeostatis. Periodic refeeds effectively reverse this trend. When I prepped with skip last summer, I have recorded my body temperature as high as 100 at the end of the refeed. Powerful effects to say the least. This also explains why refeeds become more important and more frequent at the end of the prep.

Another poster mentioned that refeeds can help you gauge how long it takes for you get your water off after a load, and this absolutely the truth. I believe Skip has gone on record endorsing this as another reason infavor of the refeed. I can attest that the amount of time is both individual and highly regular.

As for how lean, I would say that depends mostly on depletion. In the early stages of a diet, your cals and carbs tend to be high enough that you don't need a massive replenishment of carbs. Furthermore, your metabolism slows at a lag (variable by individual) and so it isn't necessary on those grounds. But once you start depleting, and you should be able to feel it and see it in your log book, you'll know when to introduce the refeed. Just remember the extent needs to be in proportion to how depleted you are.

I'd like to add a note about knowing when to add the refeed. When we were prepping, I was starting to feel rundown, workouts were starting to go flat, and I asked Skip about these refeeds and when I would get to do one. His answer was "tomorrow". You will know. (I hope I haven't given too much away)
 
Last edited:
Abolish

Yes, eating when hungry takes care of everything for you......this is a minute by minute sport.........not week by week........make fine tune changes immediately not 5 days later........seperate yourself from the pack, its the only way to get ahead. But yes, proper ratios..............
 
seperate yourself from the pack

This should apply to EVERYTHING in life... :)

You're already up and posting, Phil? :eek: Isn't it something like 6.20 AM in NY??? Pam musn't have let you sleep... :p

Back to the subject, the more I'm practicing the "eat when you're hungry" thing, the more I feel it's REALLY the best way to go... give your body what he needs WHEN he needs it. At least seems to be working great for me. :)
 
The below article was wrote by Skip at IM

High GI carbs, Insulin and your metabolism
________________________________________
I am getting a lot of questions around my eating of a lot of high GI carbs, lately, and probably because I am dieting it is getting on my nerves a little bit. I do understand that people generally want to know why it is that I do what I do and I understand that people want to learn but I can tell sometimes that the "tone" of the question is more like "what the fuck do you think you are doing" rather than, "I want to learn why it is you are doing what you are doing".

Let me first say or remind everyone that I get people into SIC condition and I do it consistently with low level competitors as well as high level competitors and including myself. I use the same principles with damned near every one of my clients when it comes to high GI carbs and their response to metabolism. It is funny because I sometimes have to remind myself that there are actually guys out there that diet in such an archaic way that they don't have high carb days, don't use high GI carbs and basically starve themselves lean or starve themselves small (sometimes not even lean or as lean as they could be) and eat the same shit day in and day out for weeks on end. Well, for weeks on end until they cheat on their diet because they get to the point that they can't handle it anymore and blow the diet. It happens and, quite frankly, if I had to eat potatoes for carbs for 15 weeks and my idea of a "high carb day" was an added 200g of potatoes, I probably wouldn't make it, either. It amazes me that this still goes on.

I understand that a lot of people think that high GI carbs equals fat for some reason. Why they think this I don't really know. It could be a lack of knowledge of fundamental nutrition or a lack of knowledge of the effects of carbs on the thyroid and the significance of insulin in holding muscle mass. I even heard it said once that high GI carbs will make you fat during a diet but that same person advocated for insulin use. lol Yeah, use insulin instead of using the diet to do the same damned thing. Oh brother....

The real issue isn't using the high GI carbs but knowing how to use them as far as timing goes in reference to what is going on with the body. High GI carbs elicit a strong insulin response from the body and insulin is a storage hormone. If the timing is right, high GI carbs are far superior to clean carbs for replenishing glycogen and why someone would use shitty, bland tasting carbs like potatoes to get the job done of replenishing glycogen stores when there are things that actually taste good, I have no idea. Again, it must be preconceived notions or something they read in FLEX when they were little. I don't get it. You aren't going to get a strong insulin response from potatoes like you are going to get from cereal or sugary cereal bars or something similar.

I had someone ask me whether I would do my high carb days in the same fashion if I were getting ready for a show. Why not? The reason for the high carb days is to keep getting lean and to use the insulin response to hold onto muscle mass. Why in the hell would I stop them if I were getting ready for a show? Is cereal a no no while prepping or something? It might sound a little arrogant but.. if I am doing it, don't you think it is the best way to do it?? Yeah, that was arrogant but oh well.

Listen, if you want to continue dieting for weeks on end with potatoes and plain oatmeal, go for it. Your metabolism will hate you and you are much more likely to diet away muscle AND not end up as lean as you could be because you aren't getting the most out of manipulating your metabolism to work for you. Just because something is sugary and tastes good doesn't mean, at all, that it doesn't belong in your diet. That is rediculous. My clients will tell you that they eat everything from pancakes to waffles to sushi to toast and jelly to bagels to cereal, etc. - most of them every single week during their preps. Daniel Stern isn't peeled right now at nationals? Kevin Deiner wasn't peeled when he won teenage nationals? Hans VanderGronden wasn't peeled when he took 3rd at North Americans?? KingKong wasn't peeled when he won the Missouri and took second at the Caveman? Oh, the list goes on and on AND this is all without any diuretics - NONE.

I am known for taking the road less traveled and for disproving things over and over, all the time. If you don't think outside of the box, get used to your box.

Skip
 
Look up "leptin".
 
Look up "leptin".

So, are you saying that leptin levels are low due to the dieting (eating lower lower calories) and that they do not rise right off that much after overfeeding. Therefore, shocking the energy balance and metabolism...kicking it into full throttle mode or eventually raising the leptin levels again to regain control of the metabolism?

So, I see where re-feeding makes sense from that viewpoint if you are restricting the body. Interesting....thanks Shelby, but I may not be totally hitting that on the head.
 
Here, I’ll help.

Ever see a natural BBer who is not in shape. (I’m not talking about newcomers but natural pros, etc) Not only are they in shape, the are shredded!

Here’s a excerpt from one of Layne Norton’s articles.

One should also incorporate re-feeds into their diet plan. Re-feeds help boost a hormone called leptin, which is the mother of all fat burning hormones. As one diets, leptin levels drop in an attempt by the body to spare body fat. Periodic, proper re-feeding can raise leptin levels and help one continue to burn fat an optimum rate.

A person who is lean will need to re-feed more frequently than someone who has a higher body fat percentage. For those who are below 10%, it is probably a wise idea to incorporate re-feeds two times per week. For those people who are in the 10-15% range, re-feeding every 6-12 days will probably be adequate, for those who are above 15%, re-feeding will probably not need to be done more than once every week to two weeks. Obviously as one loses body fat they will need to re-feed more often.

Re-feed on the day you work your worst body part(s) as re-feeding will not only raise leptin, but be quite anabolic. Keep fat as low as possible during re-feed days as high insulin levels will increase dietary fat transport into adipose tissue. In addition dietary fat has little to no impact on leptin levels. Reduce protein intake to 1g/lb bodyweight Consume as little fructose as possible as fructose does not have an impact on leptin levels. Increase calories to maintenance level (or above if you are an ectomorph) and increase carbs by at least 50-100% (endo’s stay on the low end, while ecto’s should stay on the high end) over normal diet levels.
 
From T-nation

Misapplying Dietary Digressions

I'll start off by explaining the differences between the three types of dietary digressions: cheating, loading, and refeeding.

Cheating means eating a meal (or several) consisting of foods that are outside the realm of what's acceptable on your diet, and the centerpiece is usually sugary junk.

You have planned and unplanned cheats. I touched on the later earlier (eating some crap on a day you're not supposed to); these should be avoided as much as possible.

Planned cheats refer to giving yourself a moment in the week where you can eat the bad food you've been craving. This moment is always on a given day and comes at the conclusion of a week of solid dieting.

Loading, like cheating, means eating a meal (or several) consisting of foods that aren't a part of your daily plan. Contrary to cheating, though, loading uses clean, high-carbohydrate foods like yams, potatoes, rice, whole-wheat pasta, fruits, etc. On a loading day, you want to refill muscle glycogen, so your daily intake of carbs will fall between 200 and 600 grams depending on your size and goals.

Refeeds still consist of increasing your food intake for a day, but you do so by respecting your regular diet. You simply eat more of the foods that you normally ingest. A small amount of clean carbs (15 to 20 grams per meal) is also acceptable.

Now that we understand the difference between these three, let's explore the logic behind dietary digression days.

Such days serve three main purposes:

1. To prevent the ill effects of dieting, mainly metabolic slowdown and rebound binging. Calorie and carb restrictions decrease the release of the hormone called leptin. Leptin is important because it sends a message to the body that it's well-fed, so your body can keep up its metabolic rate.

If less leptin is produced, your body will likely think it's starving, and it'll react to the situation by slowing down your metabolism and increasing hunger.

As leptin drops, the risk of dietary failure increases.

It's been shown that increasing food intake drastically, even for a short period of time, will prevent the drop in leptin that occurs when dieting. This is especially important in the later stages. Unless you use a stupidly high energy deficit when dieting, your leptin levels aren't likely to drop significantly during the first few weeks. It's only after you've lost a significant amount of fat, or have been of the diet for several weeks, that it'll become necessary to prevent the underproduction of leptin.

2. To reload glycogen stores. Glycogen (the carbs stored in the muscles and liver) is the primary fuel source for intense physical work. When your glycogen stores are low, you won't be able to train as hard as when you're fully loaded.

The main purpose of weight training when dieting is to preserve (or even gain) muscle mass. If you can't train hard, it'll be difficult to prevent muscle loss. For that reason, it's a good idea to periodically give the body a shot of carbohydrates to keep glycogen stores at least somewhat full.

Your body can actually produce glucose (and then glycogen) from amino acids via a process called gluconeogenesis. But this might lead to muscle loss if your calorie deficit is too great, so a weekly carbohydrate load can be a good way to prevent the eating away of your muscle to produce glucose.

3. To give yourself a psychological break. One of the toughest aspects of dieting isn't so much the deprivation, but the fact that you know that you won't be able to satisfy your cravings for weeks. A lot of people stop their diet in the first few weeks because they can't see themselves being deprived of the foods they love for such a long period. For these people, having a once-a-week mulligan can help them maintain the diet over the long run.

But it's a double-edged sword. While it can provide you with some much needed mental relief, it can also increase the frequency and intensity of your cravings. If you can get through the first few weeks without eating any forbidden foods, your desire for them will gradually fade.

But if you constantly remind yourself of how good these physique wreckers taste, you'll always have to fight craving attacks.

So, yes, it can help if you're able to shut the door for the whole week once the cheat is over. But if you can't, it'll ruin your efforts and make your life miserable.

If we look at the three benefits of getting off of your diet for a short period of time, we can decide whether a cheat, load, or refeed is beneficial or if it'll screw up your progress.

Cheats, loads, and refeeds all have a positive impact on maintaining leptin levels. They also have an impact on glycogen storage. Generally, the loading strategy has the greatest impact on glycogen stores. Cheats also have a positive effect on glycogen stores, but if the carbs are mainly from high-fructose corn syrup, you'll store much less than if they were from another form.

Additionally, the high glycemic load of the cheat food versus the cleaner carbs can increase the amount of carbs stored as fat.

Refeeds can also work for glycogen loading, but since you'll normally be consuming no more than 125 to 150 grams of carbs, you won't be able to get a supercompensation effect.

When it comes to the impact on leptin, at an equal caloric intake, all three strategies are fairly similar. I'd like to tell you that eating clean foods in excess is more beneficial in this regard than eating bad foods, but it isn't so. The total amount of calories and carbs is more important than the quality of the food when it comes to leptin manipulation.

This doesn't mean that you should eat crap, simply that for the purpose of leptin manipulation, crap will be as effective as other items.

As far as the psychological aspect is concerned, we have a pretty variable response to all three strategies. Some people love fast food, others crave sugar and pastries (like me), and then there's those who are attracted to things like pasta, breads, and fruits. So, the food that'll give a dieter some mental relief is really dependent on personal preferences.

In an ideal world, our cravings would be for yams, potatoes, pasta, and fruits. Eating those on your dietary digression day will be superior to pizza, burgers, and donuts. But some people need their crap. As I mentioned earlier, if cheating opens the door to falling off the dietary Radio Flyer, avoid it.

It should be fairly obvious now that you don't need to cheat. Loading and refeeding with quality foods will do the job just as well. The only time cheating with bad food is superior is when you absolutely need a fix to stay on your diet.

Remember, your body has absolutely no physical need to eat junk. It's only our psychological side that's a slave to this.

So, my rules of digressive eating are:

As much as possible, opt for clean alternatives.

You don't need to load or refeed every week. Unless you're excessive, leptin won't be a problem until after several weeks of dieting, and glycogen stores can be kept relatively loaded even when dieting. You should have a loading or refeed day when your metabolism is starting to slow down (your morning temperature drops by one or two degrees) or when your glycogen stores are low (you'll feel flat and have problems getting a pump).

The leaner you are, the more often you'll need to load or refeed. When you're getting leaner, you're producing less leptin, thus continuing to drop fat will become harder. Furthermore, the leaner you are, the better your response to excessive eating. Because of better insulin sensitivity, you'll store more of the nutrients in your muscles and less as fat.

Once your load, reefed, or cheat is over, go back to your regular diet ASAP.
Don't go overboard. Go with the minimum amount needed to do the job. You don't need two pizzas, three burgers, and a dozen donuts to refill glycogen stores, boost leptin, and give yourself some mental relief. (Remember the flat tire analogy?)
 

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