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Echocardiogram results. Thick heart.

Thebigone

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Attached is the report. What the doctor basically told me is my heart is thick but not insane thick. He knows I have been on AAS/HRT for 10yrs and from his opinion unless I start increasing doses or doing more cycles my heart thickness will not get thicker. But it shouldn't be where it's at now and it should be reversed. He said chances of future heart disease are much greater with a thick heart. He said the only way to decrease the thickness is to keep blood pressure under control, keep body weight in general under control, and add cardio. Anyone with experience can you read the lab and let me know how thick or bad my heart is? I obviously don't want it to get any worse but clearly I would like to do some cycles in the future.
 

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XstarchildX

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I have no idea how to read that data, but I'm sorry to hear the news. Luckily, it sounds like you caught it early. Did you have any symptoms that drove you to get an EKG? Hopefully all gets sorted.

You need to ask yourself some questions. Is gaining a bunch more muscle mass extremely important to you? Are you planning on competing professionally? Or is it just great to look good, have much more muscle than the average gym goer, and still make progress on safe doses?

I hope all goes well, brother!
 

Omegasox

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No one will be able to give you a better read than your cardiologist. Follow his advice. It doesn't look very abnormal to me, but I am certainly not a cardiologist.
 

maldorf

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I just see how your ejection fraction went down more than 10% in about one year and that would concern me. I know that there can be some error in echoes but I would be a bit concerned about that going down. Did the doctor say anything about that? He must not be concerned if he didn't mention that.

Your left ventricle isn't dilated which is good, but it mentions some in the right ventricle. The left is the most critical because it has to pump blood to your entire body whereas your right just pumps it through the lungs and back to the heart (pulmonary).

The hypertrophy of the heart can also happen just from lifting weights and/or high blood pressure. The report said the thickness was down some but then your left ventricle's function(ejection fraction) went down. Not sure what to make of that.

I also read that the wall motion was normal, so that is excellent. In guys like me that had a heart attack or some with cardiomyopathy you will get a heart wall that doesn't move in a normal matter. Large parts of mine are now what they call akinetic, meaning it doesn't move much if at all. That is where I had my heart attack. Walls that get too thick will get wall motion abnormalities too. It looks like your thickness isn't to that point.

I am surprised he told you that unless you increase dose and use more your heart wont be any worse off. You must have a close relationship with that doctor for him to say that because in my experience most are overly cautious and probably just want to protect themselves from being sued for malpractice. Not sure how he could say that to you and be 100% sure of himself. Risky IMO.
 

npcout

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The regression of your left ventricle is a positive outlook and something to hold onto. The thickness of the muscle has regressed, but the muscle itself has weakened which is not good.

So what you have, is a relatively very common situation going on. A thinning, weakening cardiac muscle as evidence by a reduction in 10% of your ejection fraction. Keep in mind, an ejection fraction of 50% should be asymptomatic and if you can halt the progression now, you should progress through life just fine.

To increase cardiac output, typically beta blockers are prescribed to increase cardiac contractility and prevent further cardiac remodeling.

Coreg is my personal favorite which I am on.. because it is an alpha beta blocker. Increases the strength of the hearts contraction, decreases the heart rate, provides peripheral vasodilation with its alpha blockage, has little effect on blood sugar, and is a potent antioxidant to the coronaries. I also take an ARB for further protection.

I don't have issues, but my cardiologist (i work in healthcare) takes a pro-active approach who I can be honest with, would rather prevent than treat.
 

maldorf

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The regression of your left ventricle is a positive outlook and something to hold onto. The thickness of the muscle has regressed, but the muscle itself has weakened which is not good.

So what you have, is a relatively very common situation going on. A thinning, weakening cardiac muscle as evidence by a reduction in 10% of your ejection fraction. Keep in mind, an ejection fraction of 50% should be asymptomatic and if you can halt the progression now, you should progress through life just fine.

To increase cardiac output, typically beta blockers are prescribed to increase cardiac contractility and prevent further cardiac remodeling.

Coreg is my personal favorite which I am on.. because it is an alpha beta blocker. Increases the strength of the hearts contraction, decreases the heart rate, provides peripheral vasodilation with its alpha blockage, has little effect on blood sugar, and is a potent antioxidant to the coronaries. I also take an ARB for further protection.

I don't have issues, but my cardiologist (i work in healthcare) takes a pro-active approach who I can be honest with, would rather prevent than treat.

Exactly, with the Coreg. I am on that as well after my heart attack and it helps to keep my heart rate down so that I don't go into tachhyardia and ventricular fibrillation. I don't know though if he really needs that. Sure his cardiologist will prescribe if needed. My EF is around 20% so I definitely need it. I take the Coreg CR cap that is 80 mg, once a day as it is timed released. That with a ACE inhibitor, low dose Lisinopril.

On a side note, still taking my Mexiletine for my ventricular fibrillation. Been trying to get my dose down but my defibrillator had to fire off on Tuesday afternoon and save my ass again. Back up on a higher dose. The OP shouldn't have to worry about any of the shit I am dealing with if he plays it safe.
 

Reno911

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The regression of your left ventricle is a positive outlook and something to hold onto. The thickness of the muscle has regressed, but the muscle itself has weakened which is not good.

Coreg is my personal favorite which I am on.. because it is an alpha beta blocker. Increases the strength of the hearts contraction, decreases the heart rate, provides peripheral vasodilation with its alpha blockage, has little effect on blood sugar, and is a potent antioxidant to the coronaries. I also take an ARB for further protection.

I don't have issues, but my cardiologist (i work in healthcare) takes a pro-active approach who I can be honest with, would rather prevent than treat.


Do you feel that Coreg is a better choice than telmisartan for a person (in their 40's) with no current issues?
 

nothuman

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Attached is the report. What the doctor basically told me is my heart is thick but not insane thick. He knows I have been on AAS/HRT for 10yrs and from his opinion unless I start increasing doses or doing more cycles my heart thickness will not get thicker. But it shouldn't be where it's at now and it should be reversed. He said chances of future heart disease are much greater with a thick heart. He said the only way to decrease the thickness is to keep blood pressure under control, keep body weight in general under control, and add cardio. Anyone with experience can you read the lab and let me know how thick or bad my heart is? I obviously don't want it to get any worse but clearly I would like to do some cycles in the future.



Make sure gotgame sees this as he's the most qualified to answer this. Also, Muscledoc1 happens to be a cardiac sonographer



It's weird how any issues I have ever seen on my echo are the opposite of yours. The one think that stood out to me was your EF decreased from 63 to 51. Not that 50-51 is that bad, but it's at the low end of the normal range and the 12% decrease is worth monitoring.



I don't know what supplements, if any, you take, but if I were you, I'd buy the following supplements. These have all been proven to reduce EF. I take them all and my EF is 60%, which is an INCREASE from 55%.

- arjuna gold from amazon (2 caps daily)

- d-ribose (15g-20g daily). That would be absolutely mandatory and it's an easy purchase.

- pine bark extract aka pycnogel

- ubiquinol (assuming you take this already because if you don't, what are you thinking??)



I believe if you don't buy these, you don't care enough about your health. They have too much positive data on them and it's a drop in the bucket financially. Don't be a cheap bastard. Just google all their effects on EF and invest in your health. My apologies if you already take them.



As for the other results on the echo regarding the thickness, I don't want to pretend to be an expert but I probably know more than most people on here since I've had a whole lot of echos. Admittedly, I only have paid attention to the results I get that are either not good or borderline, but at the end of the day, the solution is the same. Keep blood pressure low, maintain a low resting heart rate, take these supplements (anyone who tries to argue these supplements aren't worth it for heart health without reading the data on them...screw you).



Curcumin...if you don't already take it, take it (duh)



I'd definitely add an ARB, preferably Telmisartan. This is very important. Too many reasons why. Google it if you don't know why. See if you can get an RX or get it online easily.



And metformin. I am saying this without knowing your A1C and fasting blood glucose levels but it's worth the few cents it costs to take.



As for cardio, do HIIT cardio. CHALLENGE yourself. 3x per week.



But what do I know, I only have perfect bloodwork (sometimes hct/hgb goes up), perfect blood presssure and an improved echo cardiogram after nearly dying 3 years ago.

My apologies for the tone of the post! Just want to get my point across before the anti-supplement nazis who don't read about them try to argue.
 
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warlock

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Make sure gotgame sees this as he's the most qualified to answer this. Also, Muscledoc1 happens to be a cardiac sonographer

It's weird how any issues I have ever seen on my echo are the opposite of yours. The one think that stood out to me was your EF decreased from 63 to 51. Not that 50-51 is that bad, but it's at the low end of the normal range and the 12% decrease is worth monitoring.

I don't know what supplements, if any, you take, but if I were you, I'd buy the following supplements. These have all been proven to reduce EF. I take them all and my EF is 60%, which is an INCREASE from 55%.
- arjuna gold from amazon (2 caps daily)
- d-ribose (15g-20g daily). That would be absolutely mandatory and it's an easy purchase.
- pine bark extract aka pycnogel
- ubiquinol (assuming you take this already because if you don't, what are you thinking??)

I believe if you don't buy these, you don't care enough about your health. They have too much positive data on them and it's a drop in the bucket financially. Don't be a cheap bastard. Just google all their effects on EF and invest in your health. My apologies if you already take them.

As for the other results on the echo regarding the thickness, I don't want to pretend to be an expert but I probably know more than most people on here since I've had a whole lot of echos. Admittedly, I only have paid attention to the results I get that are either not good or borderline, but at the end of the day, the solution is the same. Keep blood pressure low, maintain a low resting heart rate, take these supplements (anyone who tries to argue these supplements aren't worth it for heart health without reading the data on them...screw you).

Curcumin...if you don't already take it, take it (duh)

I'd definitely add an ARB, preferably Telmisartan. This is very important. Too many reasons why. Google it if you don't know why. See if you can get an RX or get it online easily.

And metformin. I am saying this without knowing your A1C and fasting blood glucose levels but it's worth the few cents it costs to take.

As for cardio, do HIIT cardio. CHALLENGE yourself. 3x per week.

But what do I know, I only have perfect bloodwork (sometimes hct/hgb goes up), perfect blood presssure and an improved echo cardiogram after nearly dying 3 years ago.

Great post. Where do you get the ribose and the pine bark extract? How much of the pine bark extract do you take?
 

nothuman

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Also don't be too scared. Could be MUCH MUCH worse and you might even be able to reverse this.
 

nothuman

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Great post. Where do you get the ribose and the pine bark extract? How much of the pine bark extract do you take?



D-ribose I get from Nutricost in powder form.

Pine bark I use from bulk supplements. I know they have a shaky reputation but everything I've used from them appears to be legit just going by taste and feel. Pycnogenol (same thing) in pill form is great too though. I'm just trying to save money with that since I don't really NEED it. 200mg daily is good but I take slightly more with the powder since it's hard to measure it.
 

warlock

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D-ribose I get from Nutricost in powder form.

Pine bark I use from bulk supplements. I know they have a shaky reputation but everything I've used from them appears to be legit just going by taste and feel. Pycnogenol (same thing) in pill form is great too though. I'm just trying to save money with that since I don't really NEED it. 200mg daily is good but I take slightly more with the powder since it's hard to measure it.

Thank you nothuman.
 

soulifter87

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Your biggest concern in my opinion is the dilated right atrium. I couldn't keep it all straight. But it could be caused by a ventricular septal defect or pulmonary hypertension. Your left ventricular hypertrophy would happen even if you did cardio.
 

nothuman

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Your biggest concern in my opinion is the dilated right atrium. I couldn't keep it all straight. But it could be caused by a ventricular septal defect or pulmonary hypertension. Your left ventricular hypertrophy would happen even if you did cardio.

I think you meant to say his right ventricule. His right atria is normal is size. I agree though. Can't eff around with blood pressure under any circumstances. If a drug is raising it, it's time to either remove the drug or take enough stuff that it isn't raised.
 

Thebigone

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Thank you for the replies. I take all the supplements except for Arjuna and pine bark but I will add those. I started gear at 21 years old and when I was about 24 is when I pretty much stayed on all the time around 500 mg test as A base to cruise with and then added things here and there. I've only used tren a few times and never used very many orals mainly safer AAS and lower doses. I'm 35 now. I actually got my first echocardiogram in around 2007 after being on gear for about 4yrs and it was almost the same thing as the results are now. I'm pretty close with the doctor that's why I think he said he doesn't see my heart getting any worse if I continue what I'm doing but he doesn't see improving either. I've been on lisinopril and hctz the last year'ish. What's weird is the date of my previous echocardiogram in 2016 was before I ever took blood pressure meds and I was around 260 on gear, etc. but the past year i've clean my diet up a lot and just been on a true HRT and focusing much more on health and I'm 240. So it's weird how the ejection fraction went down 10% during that year but he never mentioned anything about that to me so I'll have to bring that up. He basically said regardless if you're natural or not if you do heavy strength training it can increase your heart thickness and testosterone and HGH as well as other of the body's natural hormones are responsible for increasing heart muscle so adding them will contribute to it more.
 

xman280

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Attached is the report. What the doctor basically told me is my heart is thick but not insane thick. He knows I have been on AAS/HRT for 10yrs and from his opinion unless I start increasing doses or doing more cycles my heart thickness will not get thicker. But it shouldn't be where it's at now and it should be reversed. He said chances of future heart disease are much greater with a thick heart. He said the only way to decrease the thickness is to keep blood pressure under control, keep body weight in general under control, and add cardio. Anyone with experience can you read the lab and let me know how thick or bad my heart is? I obviously don't want it to get any worse but clearly I would like to do some cycles in the future.

Mine results are very similar and have been for past 5 years, I am 35, and been lifting for 19 years and started juicing at age 17. i am 5'10, 230 - 280lbs - 8%-20%bf.. my ejection fraction is around 55%, and the right ventricular was a bit enlarged but the left slightly thickened - athletic heart - NOT a cardiomyopathy. Only once 9 years ago after 6 months of overusing stimulants for dieting - ECA, T3, CLEN , my EF was down to 48% and I felt pretty shitty. And i am juicing on high doses 2-5g weekly -constantly,slin and GH used only for 6 months non stop....
 

Thebigone

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I think you meant to say his right ventricule. His right atria is normal is size. I agree though. Can't eff around with blood pressure under any circumstances. If a drug is raising it, it's time to either remove the drug or take enough stuff that it isn't raised.


My Amazon account was acting a little funky so I went to the local vitamin shop to pick up the supps. I got the arjuna himalaya which seemed pretty close to the Amazon formula what do you think? As for pycnogenol they had 30 mg, 50 mg, and 100mg capsules. Each bottle said take three times a day so it seems like a pretty vast number so I just picked up the 50 mg is that good three times a day? 150 mg total? Thanks
 

Thebigone

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I'm thinking besides the obvious anabolic use maybe the thickness was caused from constant high blood pressure all these years. It only recently got under control when using the lisinopril and hctz. Now it sits around 135/75 i'm pretty sure previously it was a constant 160/85-90
 

nothuman

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My Amazon account was acting a little funky so I went to the local vitamin shop to pick up the supps. I got the arjuna himalaya which seemed pretty close to the Amazon formula what do you think? As for pycnogenol they had 30 mg, 50 mg, and 100mg capsules. Each bottle said take three times a day so it seems like a pretty vast number so I just picked up the 50 mg is that good three times a day? 150 mg total? Thanks

I'm thinking besides the obvious anabolic use maybe the thickness was caused from constant high blood pressure all these years. It only recently got under control when using the lisinopril and hctz. Now it sits around 135/75 i'm pretty sure previously it was a constant 160/85-90

I switched from the Himalayan arjuna to arjuna gold but can't remember exactly why. I think the gold was higher dosed and read really good reviews. The himalayan is probably just as good though.

150mg pycogenol should be enough I think.

It's more than likely most, if not all problems, were caused from untreated high BP. I'd want it to be much lower than 135 systolic. Keep note of the BP cuff they use at the doctor as it may be too small for your arm and therefore, inaccurate. Many nurses who take your BP don't know about this. It can range up to 40 points difference based on arm cuff alone.
 

Massive G

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Stop the juicing and heavy lifting bulking while you are ahead. You'll be fine and live a long and healthy life, on low doses and adjustment in heavy weights.
Lowering the weight reducing rep speed and training quicker with higher rep ranges will go along way in helping. I reached my peak size and strength in my 30's and it was foolish to try and hit that formula in my 40's.
I had been going to a cardiologist since 2007, and we noticed a significant difference in heart size and EF - commenting about my reduction in heavy lifting and bodyweight and AAS which we never discussed but he most likely knew from my medical record.
 

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