Equipoise & collagen?

[Newman]

Hi gang.

On this other thread,

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49025

I was having a conversation about collagen synthesis & AAS, specifically Turinabol. Before too long, other AAS like Deca, Var & EQ got brought up.

Anyway, I've read many times that EQ enhances collagen synthesis & although I haven't tried it yet, I've advised others that it is reported to assist collagen development.

JM425 mentioned that he hasn't experienced any noticeable joint/tendon benefit from EQ & feels that he's even noticed discomfort in his joints, assumably due to his using EQ.

After I admitted that I've advised in favour of EQ, but haven't tried it yet, JM425 felt that it was irresponsible of me to do so. I agreed that I should wait until I've tried it before recomending it.

I will eventually be trying it soon enough, but in the interest of satisfying my curiosity, I'm asking you folks whether any of you have tried EQ & whether you've noticed any good or bad joint/tendon effects from it?

Another bro on the other thread already posted that his joints feels good on EQ, but I'd like to see what all you people have to say about EQ as well.

Good, bad or ugly, please share your EQ experiences with us.

Thanks!

 

[Newman]

Nobody has ever tried EQ? (like yeah, sure)

Even a bad report is welcome.

I just want your opinion of whether EQ affects your joints/tendons and whether it was good or bad...

 

[JJ-INSANE1]

Nobody has ever tried EQ? (like yeah, sure)

Even a bad report is welcome.

I just want your opinion of whether EQ affects your joints/tendons and whether it was good or bad...

Bro
I have taken EQ on and off for 15 years. I never found anything close to it causing joint pain or tendon problems. The only time i take it is when i am already very lean and i get crazy vascular. Other then getting stronger and more vascular it does nothing else to me.

JJ Insane1

 

[Tyrone]

Bro
I have taken EQ on and off for 15 years. I never found anything close to it causing joint pain or tendon problems. The only time i take it is when i am already very lean and i get crazy vascular. Other then getting stronger and more vascular it does nothing else to me.

JJ Insane1

Agreed with JJ...same here.
Jeez Newman...novels or what? J/K but damn you type a tone....kind of a lot too

 

[Stewie Griffon]

everything i have read indicates that EQ is the superior choice for collagen synthesis (joint recovery).

many people i know have experience with EQ that validates this

 

[EasyEJL]

After I admitted that I've advised in favour of EQ, but haven't tried it yet, JM425 felt that it was irresponsible of me to do so. I agreed that I should wait until I've tried it before recomending it.

If you haven't tried it, what was your rationale for recommending it? If it was broscience and crap from forums like you are looking for with this post, it is irresponsible as you are just parroting what other guys were parroting. If you have some medical studies to back it up, then whether you've tried it or not its valid and reasonable. Cause even if some guy says "my joints felt 10x better after an EQ cycle" unless he had and posted before + after MRIs/Xrays that showed the collagen regrowth it doesn't mean crap.

 

[Newman]

If you haven't tried it, what was your rationale for recommending it? If it was broscience and crap from forums like you are looking for with this post, it is irresponsible as you are just parroting what other guys were parroting. If you have some medical studies to back it up, then whether you've tried it or not its valid and reasonable. Cause even if some guy says "my joints felt 10x better after an EQ cycle" unless he had and posted before + after MRIs/Xrays that showed the collagen regrowth it doesn't mean crap.

I've read several articles on it, but I can't remember exactly where. I don't memorise URLs of stuff that I think might be contested later on in life. (who does?)

I already said I won't advise in favour of EQ again until I find MEDICAL/SCIENTIFIC PROOF of collagen enhancement.

What do I need to do, hang myself to prove sincere repentance?

If you need to feel offended, then go ahead, but such was NOT my intention.

Like Stewie, I've read a lot of stuff claiming significan collagen synthesis & they had convincing numbers. Sure people on forums can lie, but then so can researchers paid to find a certain result, can't they?

BTW, although I never mentioned it in my 1st post, I had hoped that someone would have knowledge of a study proving or disproving the EQ collagen claims.

I'll try to dig around some & see what I can find.

 

[eroc613]

It's helped my joint pain considerably, is the past.

You can get joint pain if taking GH at the same time.

 

[EasyEJL]

Like Stewie, I've read a lot of stuff claiming significan collagen synthesis & they had convincing numbers. Sure people on forums can lie, but then so can researchers paid to find a certain result, can't they?

right but people on forums lie because they are anonymous, crazy and bored. While researchers only get paid to find a certain result when there is money involved in selling the product Since the steroids are all in generic status worldwide, no company would bother bribing researchers for a specific result. Plus thats also the point of only looking at research published in peer reviewed journals, and evaluating the details of the study to decide how likely it was a fluke. Even just looking at dietary studies, its so easy to find reasons to not trust the study.

Overall from studies i've seen, basically anything from testosterone thru any of the other steroids enhances collagen synthesis along with enhancing protein synthesis. The real trick would be to work out which does it best

 

[Chuck999]

Don't know if it helps my joints or not, but I like Eq. Used to run a real basic test cyp + deca cycle. Nobody will say deca isn't good for joints, and not a bad AA, but of course unless you run it with enough test it kills your sex drive. Totally unscientific but now that I think about it, text cyp with Eq seems to do about the same thing, but without the wimp weenie effect. So (again, totally no scientific or any other basis but my experience) for me it seems to be good stuff.

Chuck999

 

[Newman]

right but people on forums lie because they are anonymous, crazy and bored.

True.




While researchers only get paid to find a certain result when there is money involved in selling the product

When isn't there money involved? Nobody even shells out any dough for a basic drug patent application unless their sales dept has already identified a juicy enough market demographic to justify the cost of testing.




Since the steroids are all in generic status worldwide, no company would bother bribing researchers for a specific result.

I don't know about that. Boldenone Undecyclenate is the chemical name, but the product has been sold under the names of Equipoise, Ganabol, Equigan, Ultragan & Parenabol. I'm betting that while the original patent was still valid, the compound wasn't considered too generic. While still actionable, they would have likely tested it for every benefit they could market it for, then marketed it as aggressively as they could.




Plus thats also the point of only looking at research published in peer reviewed journals, and evaluating the details of the study to decide how likely it was a fluke.

Yes, I'm familiar with the final phase of the Scientific Method.




Even just looking at dietary studies, its so easy to find reasons to not trust the study.

Are you saying you've seen dietary studies that prove that EQ doesn't help collagen? (or did I misunderstand?)




Overall from studies i've seen, basically anything from testosterone thru any of the other steroids enhances collagen synthesis along with enhancing protein synthesis.

Then why did you resent my having advised other BBers to use EQ without having tried it myself yet? If you had already believed it was good for collagen, I don't understand how you would have found that to be bad advice?

Anyway, whatever, who cares anyway...

After putting up my last post on this thread last night, I spent about 3 hours Googling for any proof of collagen enhancement. I stopped after I got a virus off one of the sites that shut off Internet Explorer. (yes, I still use Idiots Excuse, not Mozilla or Firefox)

Unfortunately I couldn't find a shred of clinical proof of EQ credited collagen enhancement in any animal or human. That doesn't mean it doesn't do the job, it only proves that I can't find solid proof.




The real trick would be to work out which does it best

I agree. I think that honour likely goes to Deca.

GH seems to have good brolore attached to it, but I haven't searched for Gh related clinical proof of collagen help. It's probably out there though...

By the way, I remember reading somewhere that exogenous test under 250mg per week was found to aid collagen, but paradoxically, doses higher than that start to retard collagen formation. Wish I could find that reference again.

Have you ever read that winny increases collagen synthesis, yet oddly reduces collagen molecule cross linking, resulting in weaker tendons?

Peace.

 

[EasyEJL]

By the way, I remember reading somewhere that exogenous test under 250mg per week was found to aid collagen, but paradoxically, doses higher than that start to retard collagen formation. Wish I could find that reference again.

Have you ever read that winny increases collagen synthesis, yet oddly reduces collagen molecule cross linking, resulting in weaker tendons?

Peace.

Yeah, i'ver seen that as well.

I wasnt trying to continue to rip on you, only continuing train of thought. "Then why did you resent my having advised other BBers to use EQ without having tried it myself yet? If you had already believed it was good for collagen, I don't understand how you would have found that to be bad advice? " I didn't resent it at all Just thought that particularly when talking about substances that are illegal to purchase and use that you need to be careful when you recommend one thing over another. Recommending at all that a person use something not legal is wishy washy at all. Like with adequan, I talked about its safety, talked about why it was pulled from human use in europe, but didn't recommend that anyone actually use it

and on this "Are you saying you've seen dietary studies that prove that EQ doesn't help collagen? (or did I misunderstand?)" I was just saying that even on something as specific as "how many grams of egg protein can a 100kg male digest + retain from a single meal" may be partially answered by a study but still leave so many holes its not truly conclusive.

 

[Newman]

Yeah, i'ver seen that as well.

You hear about so many bros in the gym who've ripped this muscle, or torn that tendon, I personally think there's too much emphasids placed on mass & not enough emphasis placed on structural integrity.

I had a discussion with Muay Thai about Deca & collagen & he found pretty convincing scientific proof of Deca enhancing collagen. It would be nice if some researcher (real researcher, not a BBer) would pull off a proper placebo controlled collagen study involving EQ. I mean, sure it's not as anabolic as Deca, but if it helps tendons/ligaments, then it's worth running with an AI medicated high test cycle as insurance against tendon dammage.




I wasnt trying to continue to rip on you, only continuing train of thought.

No problem. No harm done. Sometimes on the internet, it's really easy to mistake someone's motives because we miss out on stuff like vocal intonation, facial expresion & body language.




"Then why did you resent my having advised other BBers to use EQ without having tried it myself yet? If you had already believed it was good for collagen, I don't understand how you would have found that to be bad advice? " I didn't resent it at all Just thought that particularly when talking about substances that are illegal to purchase and use that you need to be careful when you recommend one thing over another. Recommending at all that a person use something not legal is wishy washy at all. Like with adequan, I talked about its safety, talked about why it was pulled from human use in europe, but didn't recommend that anyone actually use it

I never asked what nation they lived in. Don't wanna know either, that way I'm not guilty of advocating anything questionable.




and on this "Are you saying you've seen dietary studies that prove that EQ doesn't help collagen? (or did I misunderstand?)" I was just saying that even on something as specific as "how many grams of egg protein can a 100kg male digest + retain from a single meal" may be partially answered by a study but still leave so many holes its not truly conclusive.

Yeah, studies can be ambiguous & misleading. For example, in the Deca/rat tendon study, they never waited for a long time after stopping the Deca treatment to see if the tendons lost collagen & shrank back down to normal size. They just juiced em up, cut em up & weighed ther tendons. While the study showed bigger/stronger tendons for the deca group rats, it didn't prove how long this collagen gain was retained post cycle.

I wonder if there's ever gonna be a doping scandal up in Alaska over Eskimos darting their dogs with Deca in the Iditarod dog sled races? LOL!

 

[EasyEJL]

generally its the horse racing that happens in

I'd like to see a study comparing various anabolics overall in terms of collagen, and have it be a long term study (even if the anabolic phase is only short term)

My favorite of the "evidence" studies is the burned rats getting anti-catabolic effects from clenbuterol translating into it being anti-catabolic in pct

 

[jm425]

I honestly think that the people who say that collagen synthesis occurs with EQ is just in their head. Like a placebo effect. EQ may indeed increase collagen synthesis but until there is a valid medical study for it, there is no way to say for certain that it does. That's just my opinion though. Also, there is an article floating around where some guy is blowing smoke up people's asses by saying that primo, eq, deca, var and gh all increase collagen and he goes on further coming up with exact percentages, LOL. I will say this though, my lab rats joints have felt better on deca and gh.

 

[Newman]

generally its the horse racing that happens in

Yeah, I know. I was only joking.

Most people probably haven't even heard of the northern dog sled races, let along care enough to bet on the outcome.




I'd like to see a study comparing various anabolics overall in terms of collagen, and have it be a long term study (even if the anabolic phase is only short term)

Me too. I'd like it to very thorough though. Test only cycles, Deca only cycles, winny only cycles, Anavar only cycles, EQ only cycles & mixed cycles.

Measuring rat strength & endrance would be cool too. Cloned rats would yield accurate AAS performance results.

Tendon testing would take 4 main forms:

1. Immediately after short cycles.
2. After short cycles followed by equal length breaks.
3. Immediately after long cycles.
4. After long cycles followed by equal length breaks.

Testing in this way would help determine if any AAS were capable of showing short cycle strength & collagen gains. It would also show whether the strenght & collagen gains were lasting or only temporary. PCTs would be administered to yield more meaningful results. After all, who cycles without proper PCT?



My favorite of the "evidence" studies is the burned rats getting anti-catabolic effects from clenbuterol translating into it being anti-catabolic in pct

My God, that's horrifying. Good useful info though.

.

 

[jm425]

.

Would, could, etc. There hasn't been a valid medical study out. Until then, all bets are off.

 

[Newman]

Would, could, etc. There hasn't been a valid medical study out. Until then, all bets are off.

The period was only there because all my other text was inside your quote. The forum software won't let anyone put up a post unless there's at least one character to post. It doesn't recognise anything typed inside a quote & won't post until you add something outside the quote.

I wasn't saying "PERIOD!", as in stating that I've made the final word, I only chose a period because I didn't think it would get noticed... (you're pretty perceptive)

 

[Newman]

My favorite of the "evidence" studies is the burned rats getting anti-catabolic effects from clenbuterol translating into it being anti-catabolic in pct

That sounds like a good study, but my favourite is the one where Deca caused an increase in tendon diameter & strength in lab rats. That's the one that most people trust as proof of Decas' tendon benefit.

I had really hoped to have found something on EQ helping horses heal from tendon injuries etc, but I couldn't find jack squat...

I still think EQ does the job (2 much brolore to ignore), but I can't prove it. Yet.

 

[jm425]

The period was only there because all my other text was inside your quote. The forum software won't let anyone put up a post unless there's at least one character to post. It doesn't recognise anything typed inside a quote & won't post until you add something outside the quote.

I wasn't saying "PERIOD!", as in stating that I've made the final word, I only chose a period because I didn't think it would get noticed... (you're pretty perceptive)

Haha. Nothing gets past me. LOL. If you ever do find a study or article that proves that eq does increase collagen synthesis, feel free to post it up.