Evaluating Safer Use Models

[Type-IIx]

What are the main culprits for those? Non-stop tren/oral use, uncontrolled BP?

Abuse: things like absurd doses & durations of nonaromatizable, potent AAS, like Tren (i.m.) and stanozolol (p.o.)., but so many others, too numerous to name.

The fact of the matter is that response does not scale linearly at all. So if you're using 150 mg of Anadrol (a, by all accounts, relatively safe & effective drug - my favourite), even if you're 180 kg, you're a fool... and I don't care if you believe yourself to be healthy. And I don't care that more is more (higher doses, more LBM). The fact is, an increase from 50 mg to 150 mg increases LBM at a decreasing rate vs. harms/risks that increase at an increasing rate. So, use good judgment.

See, health is transient. It's there today; gone tomorrow. And we, stupidly, take it for granted.

Uncontrolled BP is certainly a Very Bad Thing. It does cause most kidney problems that arise from AAS use. But, not everyone becomes hypertensive from reasonable AAS use, so it is similarly unwise to use ARBs/ACE inhibitors/Beta Blockers prophylactically.

Don't assume that you're average. Don't assume that the "main culprits" apply to you. Like Duchaine said: "if you believe that you are average, you have to first prove it."

 

[need4tren]

I don’t know if yall follow john Jew but he made insane progress this year. And he posted his cycle. He was a low dose advocate before and “health conscious”

900 test 1900 mast 9iu of gh

Switched to 1400 test, 800 primo 800 mast. Doses are what make you big once you have diet and training down and you are always in lean state

 

[KingOfSushi]

Abuse: things like absurd doses & durations of nonaromatizable, potent AAS, like Tren (i.m.) and stanozolol (p.o.)., but so many others, too numerous to name.

The fact of the matter is that response does not scale linearly at all. So if you're using 150 mg of Anadrol (a, by all accounts, relatively safe & effective drug - my favourite), even if you're 180 kg, you're a fool... and I don't care if you believe yourself to be healthy. And I don't care that more is more (higher doses, more LBM). The fact is, an increase from 50 mg to 150 mg increases LBM at a decreasing rate vs. harms/risks that increase at an increasing rate. So, use good judgment.

See, health is transient. It's there today; gone tomorrow. And we, stupidly, take it for granted.

Uncontrolled BP is certainly a Very Bad Thing. It does cause most kidney problems that arise from AAS use. But, not everyone becomes hypertensive from reasonable AAS use, so it is similarly unwise to use ARBs/ACE inhibitors/Beta Blockers prophylactically.

Don't assume that you're average. Don't assume that the "main culprits" apply to you. Like Duchaine said: "if you believe that you are average, you have to first prove it."

With tren, is what makes it worse typically because of its ability to worsen BP so much? Or is there more inherent things about it that make it worse than, say, nandralone or boldenone?

 

[Hyperemia]

Doses are what make you big once you have diet and training down

 

[luki7788]

I don’t know if yall follow john Jew but he made insane progress this year. And he posted his cycle. He was a low dose advocate before and “health conscious”

900 test 1900 mast 9iu of gh

Switched to 1400 test, 800 primo 800 mast. Doses are what make you big once you have diet and training down and you are always in lean state

Still far from what VB recommends - the test dose is relatively high and in fact such a cycle makes the most sense for me

 

[Type-IIx]

With tren, is what makes it worse typically because of its ability to worsen BP so much? Or is there more inherent things about it that make it worse than, say, nandralone or boldenone?

It is mostly because of its particular effects on blood pressure, but also effects on MR, electrolytes, etc, that affect the heart & the kidneys. Besides that, as a potent nonaromatizable androgen (unlike nandrolone & boldenone that both aromatize), it does some direct harm to nephrons (the functional unit of the kidney) through oxidative stress. Estrogens tend to oppose this, but with trenbolone, unlike with nandrolone and boldenone, there is no "protective" effect of estrogens on the nephron.

 

[Testosteroni]

It is mostly because of its particular effects on blood pressure, but also effects on MR, electrolytes, etc, that affect the heart & the kidneys. Besides that, as a potent nonaromatizable androgen (unlike nandrolone & boldenone that both aromatize), it does some direct harm to nephrons (the functional unit of the kidney) through oxidative stress. Estrogens tend to oppose this, but with trenbolone, unlike with nandrolone and boldenone, there is no "protective" effect of estrogens on the nephron.

Is this the reason why it’s hard to breathe on tren, lack of oxygen production in vitro mechanisms to stress the lungs?

 

[Type-IIx]

Is this the reason why it’s hard to breathe on tren, lack of oxygen production in vitro mechanisms to stress the lungs?

Nobody really knows, there is surmise & hypothetical explanations. I'd just be spitballing if I listed the possible explanations.

 

[Type-IIx]

Is this the reason why it’s hard to breathe on tren, lack of oxygen production in vitro mechanisms to stress the lungs?

If you care about my personal favorite hypothesis, it's that trenbolone shifts our muscle fibre phenotype towards IIX or IIx/b or IIb (fast isoforms), so that we're basically primed for short, anaerobic, powerful efforts, but at the expense of aerobic endurance.

 

[Mufasa123]

It is mostly because of its particular effects on blood pressure, but also effects on MR, electrolytes, etc, that affect the heart & the kidneys. Besides that, as a potent nonaromatizable androgen (unlike nandrolone & boldenone that both aromatize), it does some direct harm to nephrons (the functional unit of the kidney) through oxidative stress. Estrogens tend to oppose this, but with trenbolone, unlike with nandrolone and boldenone, there is no "protective" effect of estrogens on the nephron.

Any idea if the impact on kidneys is what makes urine darker/color? I do realize one can drink enough water to not see it via dilution but with tren urine is noticeably darker holding hydration constant in even fairly hydrated states.

Could just be tren color/oxidation but I do always wonder as that's a lot of color in a lot of urine.

 

[bbxtreme]

I don’t know if yall follow john Jew but he made insane progress this year. And he posted his cycle. He was a low dose advocate before and “health conscious”

900 test 1900 mast 9iu of gh

Switched to 1400 test, 800 primo 800 mast. Doses are what make you big once you have diet and training down and you are always in lean state

I just want to acknowledge that I think this is a step in the right direction.

I was the one on here who called out JJ saying what he did vs what he was teaching was different.

It’s great to see him sharing this IMO as it shows what it really takes at the top level with these guys.

I’m sure there are orals and other items being used along the way just as all bodybuilders do, but this is great progress and love being proven wrong.

 

[madg]

This “safe methods” on blood work can be misleading. Most of us have enlarged hearts, periods of high blood pressure esp when starting new compounds or years before we got smart. Scarred kidneys or liver, and if preconditioned there’s nothing you can do about any of it anyway.

This nandrolone and dbol is neurotoxic that Justin miller preaches all that shit is ridiculous, use what compounds you feel best on. And dose will depend on your growth. The bigger you get the more drugs you’re gonna need it’s that simple. If something gives you problems don’t take it lol

No enlarge herat here

On for 20 years since i was 18, im 38 now

Just did test last week and im happy cause i was sure i have it

 

[danieltx]

No enlarge herat here

On for 20 years since i was 18, im 38 now

Just did test last week and im happy cause i was sure i have it

Years of use doesn't guarantee damage.

I remember a few years ago when @concreteguy had his abs rupture and needed major surgery - they gave him a full work up and his heart, liver, and kidneys were in perfect condition. And he was using multiple grams in his 50s!

 

[nothuman]

Years of use doesn't guarantee damage.

I remember a few years ago when @concreteguy had his abs rupture and needed major surgery - they gave him a full work up and his heart, liver, and kidneys were in perfect condition. And he was using multiple grams in his 50s!

Anyone know what ever happened to him?

 

[danieltx]

Anyone know what ever happened to him?

I think that ordeal was the end of bodybuilding for him. He had a blockage and it led to his abdominals rupturing. He posted some pictures after he was out of the hospital and it was shocking, he was probably 150lbs. He never said anything about making a come back so I figure at his age he took that as the sign to walk away from bodybuilding.

@concreteguy was a great member and contributed innovative ideas like using Lantus with keto dieting.

 

[madg]

Years of use doesn't guarantee damage.

I remember a few years ago when @concreteguy had his abs rupture and needed major surgery - they gave him a full work up and his heart, liver, and kidneys were in perfect condition. And he was using multiple grams in his 50s!

Doc said the same but i was so anxious i was shaking daniel

 

[Doitagain]

I think that ordeal was the end of bodybuilding for him. He had a blockage and it led to his abdominals rupturing. He posted some pictures after he was out of the hospital and it was shocking, he was probably 150lbs. He never said anything about making a come back so I figure at his age he took that as the sign to walk away from bodybuilding.

@concreteguy was a great member and contributed innovative ideas like using Lantus with keto dieting.

I sure remember him and some of his unusual ideas. Very good guy
What you mentioned sounds awful and scary...do you happen to remember what kind of blockade caused this disaster?

 

[Mufasa123]

I think that ordeal was the end of bodybuilding for him. He had a blockage and it led to his abdominals rupturing. He posted some pictures after he was out of the hospital and it was shocking, he was probably 150lbs. He never said anything about making a come back so I figure at his age he took that as the sign to walk away from bodybuilding.

@concreteguy was a great member and contributed innovative ideas like using Lantus with keto dieting.

That sucks. I've read a bunch of his posts, big primo thread here comes to mind, dude was built and seemed like a good guy. Enthusiastic too, made me want to run primo reading his experiences!

 

[danieltx]

I sure remember him and some of his unusual ideas. Very good guy
What you mentioned sounds awful and scary...do you happen to remember what kind of blockade caused this disaster?

I have no clue. He never explained it on the board. He just told us he was hospitalized for an intestinal blockage which led to his abdominals bursting.

 

[Type-IIx]

Any idea if the impact on kidneys is what makes urine darker/color? I do realize one can drink enough water to not see it via dilution but with tren urine is noticeably darker holding hydration constant in even fairly hydrated states.

Could just be tren color/oxidation but I do always wonder as that's a lot of color in a lot of urine.

Few things that can cause such discoloration are something aching to rhabdomyolysis (perhaps tren users go all out in the gym), dehydration (maybe they sweat more and 'forget' to appropriately rehydrate) [personal thought, by speculatively antagonizing the MR and an antidiueretic effect may be induced in the renal tubuli/anti-sodium retention effect], and perhaps a metabolite causes it, as some medications are known to lead to urine discoloration too. There are some other kidney and liver disorders which can cause it, but it would surface in other ways too. But importantly, I have no idea, as there's no research on this I think.

Proteinuria itself doesn't cause a discoloration of urine, but leakage of red blood cells in the urine can. But I don't think that's the cause (if only because the color probably doesn't match, as some would get pink-looking urine, too, and it's an otherwise more pronounced red color).

(Peter Bond, personal communication Aug 3 2021)

I believe that trenbolone metabolites are the primary factor given the acute change without concomitant changes to eGFR & notably, the odor or scent. It's got a chemical smell to it. But it's not the sole etiology. These other factors, rhabdo, dehydration, antidiuresis, are all contributing as well.