Evaluating Safer Use Models

[emeric delczeg]

When you say “not as good” are you just saying not as micronutrient dense?

Correct.

 

[nothuman]

I haven't done that deep of a dive on the subject but I also mentioned egg white specifically because as I understand it the yolk has the real nutritive value. If we compared whey also to for example tuna in a can my hunch is that the whey might outperform tuna as "nutrition" and in their effects on health, as whey can improve immunity and so on. So whey could sometimes be a superior protein source. I also am not clear on the nutritive difference between a whey concentrate and isolate, but I do remember some experts back in the day saying to choose concentrate if you tolerate it as concentrate has some "fractions" that are good and healthy, which are lost in further processing? Whey seems to be the gold standard in the medical establishment as most of the food replacements and complete nutrition solutions in hospital care are whey based from what I've seen, with sometimes complete micronutrients added so patients can live on them exclusively for a period of time if necessary. Some experts seem to think you perhaps should add whey to your diet just for the health benefits, not just for the protein grams per se. Many lifters say they noticed no physique deterioration if they stopped whey shakes which they take to mean whey is crap, but I think there are many potential confounders in a situation like that, doesn't mean "whey doesn't work."

Whey has a very good amino acid profile, so it’s as complete of a protein as we could hope for. I prefer to use as many protein sources as possible because each has unique micronutrients. But this idea that you’ll gain more muscle eating chicken/beef as opposite to drinking whey is not based on any evidence at all

 

[KillerStack]

Whey has a very good amino acid profile, so it’s as complete of a protein as we could hope for. I prefer to use as many protein sources as possible because each has unique micronutrients. But this idea that you’ll gain more muscle eating chicken/beef as opposite to drinking whey is not based on any evidence at all

What do you think of Peter Attia? Just the other day I saw him say whey was just barely edged out by whole egg and red meat, but overall it's tops.

With all these ways to assess protein quality, PER, PDCAA, DIAAS (what else is there?) whey comes out on top or among the best. But there's still something inferior about it according to many but I feel it's probably just based, well, not much lol. One thing that might be relevant, is it being so "fast" that a lot is oxidised for fuel. These people feel casein is therefore superior but I think human digestion puts a natural break on things even if the protein is digested and absorbed very fast comparatively. If you do a huge whey shake it will take a while to digest. Don't quote me on this but I seem to recall a number like 7 grams per hour digested. Whatever the actual number it's not all just near instantaneously dumped in the blood.

 

[luki7788]

Whey has a very good amino acid profile, so it’s as complete of a protein as we could hope for. I prefer to use as many protein sources as possible because each has unique micronutrients. But this idea that you’ll gain more muscle eating chicken/beef as opposite to drinking whey is not based on any evidence at all

I think it may be important because in beef you will find for example a lot of zinc or creatine which you will not find in whey powder although you can argue here because there is no clear evidence that one or the other is superior.

although this does not change the fact that I would rather eat a solid portion of meat than drink 50g of powder - I feel like a fitness girl with a shaker in my hand instead of a rare steak on my fork lol

 

[aHarness]

I think it may be important because in beef you will find for example a lot of zinc or creatine which you will not find in whey powder although you can argue here because there is no clear evidence that one or the other is superior.

although this does not change the fact that I would rather eat a solid portion of meat than drink 50g of powder - I feel like a fitness girl with a shaker in my hand instead of a rare steak on my fork lol

Not sure if this is a big thing in Poland, but in the US I’ve seen more companies adding vitamins and minerals as well to their whey blends (example https://a.co/d/du6k4cr)

 

[luki7788]

Not sure if this is a big thing in Poland, but in the US I’ve seen more companies adding vitamins and minerals as well to their whey blends (example https://a.co/d/du6k4cr)

Yes, I know, but I am of the opinion that all vitamins, minerals, microelements of natural origin are absorbed better than their synthetic counterparts - of course this is just my theory and it may have nothing to do with the truth but since my diet consists of 95% of natural unprocessed food, my blood work, well-being, insulin sensitivity, sleep, energy level are better when I had a lot of processed products or a lot of additional unnecessary supplements in my diet

 

[b-boy]

Vary your protein sources to vary your amino acid profile.

R.I.P. - Dave Kalick

 

[luki7788]

Vary your protein sources to vary your amino acid profile.

R.I.P. - Dave Kalick

This is also my opinion and I often like to combine two sources, e.g. eggs + chicken or beef + turkey in one meal, and I like to do the same with carbohydrates.

 

[aHarness]

Yes, I know, but I am of the opinion that all vitamins, minerals, microelements of natural origin are absorbed better than their synthetic counterparts - of course this is just my theory and it may have nothing to do with the truth but since my diet consists of 95% of natural unprocessed food, my blood work, well-being, insulin sensitivity, sleep, energy level are better when I had a lot of processed products or a lot of additional unnecessary supplements in my diet

I’m inclined to agree, otherwise I think we’d see people getting a lot more out of multivitamins lol

 

[SABAGOY]

This is also my opinion and I often like to combine two sources, e.g. eggs + chicken or beef + turkey in one meal, and I like to do the same with carbohydrates.

I have always liked doing this too, not only for the added array of nutrients but when portion sizes get larger I feel it helps making the meal less of a choir mentally to get taken.

 

[Mufasa123]

I like to vary protein sources as well as vegetables and fruits (still mostly berries for me). Lots of green leafy as well as carrots, broccoli, cauliflower, etc.

Makes nutritional sense but also makes meals more interesting and diverse.

 

[nothuman]

I think it may be important because in beef you will find for example a lot of zinc or creatine which you will not find in whey powder although you can argue here because there is no clear evidence that one or the other is superior.

although this does not change the fact that I would rather eat a solid portion of meat than drink 50g of powder - I feel like a fitness girl with a shaker in my hand instead of a rare steak on my fork lol

No doubt that it’s better to have a variety of protein sources for general health reasons. Also, it’s boring and un-satisfying to just have whey all the time. It is fun to mix some whey in oatmeal or Greek Yogurt sometimes though.

Speaking from a purely anabolic standpoint, however, I don’t think it’ll move the needle much one way or another.

 

[KillerStack]

No doubt that it’s better to have a variety of protein sources for general health reasons. Also, it’s boring and un-satisfying to just have whey all the time. It is fun to mix some whey in oatmeal or Greek Yogurt sometimes though.

Speaking from a purely anabolic standpoint, however, I don’t think it’ll move the needle much one way or another.

I feel better when I eat solids for sure. There's also this truism by regular folks that someone needs a "hot plate of food" meaning cold food isn't as edifying. Dot Indians feel water you drink should be room temperature, not cold. Maybe something to these examples, usually there is, though a lot of times differences disappear when compared in controlled settings and looking at one or just a few parameters, for example protein synthesis or catabolism. It may not be the whole story.

If I was rich I would drink all these shakes that are designed to offer complete nutrition for ill patients - you can live on them exclusively for a period of time. I would trust they contain what the label claims. It's harder to trust more commercial brands targeted at the fitness community. The taste is often very good also as ill patients have trouble getting in anything.
I got these at hospital which is why I know. Very expensive though.

An example of a nutrition panel. This one is high fat but you get the idea. There's also very calorie dense, high fat shots for people with wasting. The protein is usually whey or milk based, naturally they use the protein that has the best effect.

 

[astrosfan123]

i wish this topic would have been put on blast when this whole safer use protocol stuff became all the rage. My exact question from the jump was how the hell does anyone know that higher test with a need for a little ai is more unsafe than blasting 500mg+ of primo or masteron with no ai. The answer would be bloodwork. I have yet to ever run across someone who has said their bloodwork looks better on say 300 test 800 primo than 750 test with ai. Some of these safer use model dudes are doing up to 1g primo but hey no ai right. Super safe or something. Lol my lipids get destroyed on high primo or masteron along with others i know as well. Safer use how exactly?

 

[b-boy]

i wish this topic would have been put on blast when this whole safer use protocol stuff became all the rage. My exact question from the jump was how the hell does anyone know that higher test with a need for a little ai is more unsafe than blasting 500mg+ of primo or masteron with no ai. The answer would be bloodwork. I have yet to ever run across someone who has said their bloodwork looks better on say 300 test 800 primo than 750 test with ai. Some of these safer use model dudes are doing up to 1g primo but hey no ai right. Super safe or something. Lol my lipids get destroyed on high primo or masteron along with others i know as well. Safer use how exactly?

If you lipids get destroyed on "high" primo or masteron then you are not following the safer use model. Do not use "high primo or masteron if it fucks up your blood work! Walk all anabolics up to your safe "tolerable" dosage.

 

[juiceball44]

On the topic of lipids I naturally have always had a high ldl (160) no matter what I did or how clean I ate. Been on rosuvastatin for 6 months now which dropped it immediately with no side effects. Started a fairly heavy cycle in February, test primo tren and anavar which will absolutely skyrocket ldl in most people. Just got bloods back ldl was only 90 which is crazy I bet it would have been 200+ without the statin.

 

[Cerberus777]

"Safe" is found through blood work.
A lot of people including a good friend has great blood work on med to high test and deca. My blood work looks like trash on those compounds. But but primo, Eq, mast and even a little tren with moderate test min looks good. If he ran what I do his lipids and e2 would be nile.

 

[nothuman]

On the topic of lipids I naturally have always had a high ldl (160) no matter what I did or how clean I ate. Been on rosuvastatin for 6 months now which dropped it immediately with no side effects. Started a fairly heavy cycle in February, test primo tren and anavar which will absolutely skyrocket ldl in most people. Just got bloods back ldl was only 90 which is crazy I bet it would have been 200+ without the statin.

It is insane to me how the good benefit of a statin can overpower the LDL rise from AAS. I used 50mg anavar and my LDL was 41 while 5mg rosuvastatin and 10mg ezetimibe were in there. HDL went down to 26 but the LDL didn't move. Cool stuff.

 

[Knight9]

Sorry guys i had the name wrong, it was not Yellowjacket but a guy named Discohornet who was going up and down pro muscle a decade plus ago talking about Telmisartan. So this VB guy who wants to take credit all up and down the internet over the last 3 years that he was the person who introduced Telmisartan to the bodybuilding community is a fool. It has been talked about here on Pro Muscle for a decade plus.

Discohornet was sharp! Rest In Peace to him.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

It is insane to me how the good benefit of a statin can overpower the LDL rise from AAS. I used 50mg anavar and my LDL was 41 while 5mg rosuvastatin and 10mg ezetimibe were in there. HDL went down to 26 but the LDL didn't move. Cool stuff.

Agreed taking 10 mgs rosuvastatin on these short 4-5 week cycles. Hdl went from 17 to 27. Helps a lot.