EXCELLENT CASE STUDY OF 4 BODYBUILDERS USING STEROIDS FOR MANY YEARS

[minister]

I think its like most things in life. Your health outcome will depend on a lot of factors. How your body deals with these hormones(genetics) is one, your lifestyle and diet, and the way that you use the drugs.

Some people can smoke 3 packs of cigarettes a day and never get cancer or develop any health problems, and others might smoke 3 packs a week and get cancer. A good friend of mine smokes 3 packs a day, has been now for 22 years, and has not a single issue. His father has been doing the same for nearly 50 years and is fine too, toss in the grand father while youre at it.

Of course the higher dose of AAS you take, the more your risk. THe big problem is that some people can develop big health issues while taking just moderate doses. I think one of the biggest problems is cruising on test all year long. Once I cruised for a year is when my big problems started and I had the clot. I was crusing on between 500 -250 mg/wk inbetween cycles that were about 8-10 weeks long. My cycles only used 750 mg test/wk with 250mg deca/wk. So thats just 1g/wk total. Thats it.

In the past before I met Phil though, I had done cycles of about 2 to 2.5 grams/wk total. Id do about 8 weeks and get off though.

Maldorf, I think you hit it right on, I am a true believer that the secret to stay healthy and be able to do cycles is extending the time you are off gear, to give your body a chance to recover, myself I'm used to short cycles and longer time off, been using gear for 15 years, I'm not going to lie and say that I have always been this cautious, in my younger years I did long cycles and high doses,but as more info started coming in about the side effects of AAS, I adjusted to lower doses and shorter cycles, and it has worked out really good for me. I am 46 now and besides my BP going a bit high during my time on, everything else checks out, I know I have to give up gear at some point, but not right now, I still enjoy my time in the gym, still holding on to good quality muscle, and one of my best friends is 74 years old, been on gear for 36 years, and I told him I was going to be on gear longer then him, so we'll see. God bless you,and stay healthy, it's not fun otherwise.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

so how can we stay healthy?

don't want to totally high jack the thread but seems like we should now discuss how to AVOID these terrible outcomes and risks.
regardless of risk, many guys will still choose to use steroids so what can they do to minimize risks from your experience Maldorf (or anyone else...) -JS

 

[Max32]

don't want to totally high jack the thread but seems like we should now discuss how to AVOID these terrible outcomes and risks.
regardless of risk, many guys will still choose to use steroids so what can they do to minimize risks from your experience Maldorf (or anyone else...) -JS

My cardiologist has me on one of the newer types of blood pressure meds that is most directly linked to reversal of left ventricular hypertrophy.... from bloodwork, echocardiogram and stress test, he said that was only concern...

I added OTC:

hawthorne extract
garlic
twinlab blood pressure support
ubiquinol
sesamin
magnesium oratate (do some research on this one, GREAT find)

among other prods, but those are ones I consider cardioprotective...

 

[Johnny Smiles]

so what is it?

My cardiologist has me on one of the newer types of blood pressure meds that is most directly linked to reversal of left ventricular hypertrophy.... from bloodwork, echocardiogram and stress test, he said that was only concern...

I added OTC:

hawthorne extract
garlic
twinlab blood pressure support
ubiquinol
sesamin
magnesium oratate (do some research on this one, GREAT find)

among other prods, but those are ones I consider cardioprotective...

ok, so what is that BP medicine? -JS

 

[Ivan]

wow

I'm not saying the study is wrong. The problem I have is number one we don't know what kind of shape these guys were in before they participated in the study, or before they took steroids and second a study that only studies 4 people thats hardley a study in my opinion, and to play devils advocate I'll bet these guys ate meat, carrots took protein shakes do U get my point?

EXACTLY

I wouldn't dismiss the effect of AAs on the heart, but there a lot of things to consider, it seems to me that these guys were somewhat reckless in their use, probably never monitored their health closely until they started having problems, because I know a few guys, including a 74 year old friend of mine that have been using gear for decades and no problems whatsoever, just like I'm sure there are people prone to this kind of thing and others that are not. Blessings bros.

This "study" tells us NOTHING. FOUR men? WTF??! This is not how studies are done. This is a joke. Hey I have an idea, let's tell all the aids and cancer patients that are wasting away that they better stop before they have a heart attack. This is the kind of bullshit propaganda I cannot stand. Seriously Maldorf, you admit to using 2.5 grams of aas in a week, well that's nowhere near the most I have even come close to. Some guys can do this and have zero problems. You are like on some sort of a crusade against AAS, well, it should be a no-brainer that using ALL YEAR round is a pretty stupid idea. And they were taking pretty healthy doses as well. And as was mentioned, we do not know anything about these ppl. And four??? It need to be a double blind study, randomly sampled, with a large samlple size w/ different doses etc. Problem is, nobody wants to do a study where the results could possibly contradict the current philosophy on this topic. Dr. Charles Yesalis for one, would laugh his ass off at this. I am not saying there are dangers, but you are making it sound like it is inevitable. People need to be responsible in their use, and go to doctors who actually know how the body works. If there is a problem detected, then of course that person should stop. They should stop doing anything that could be considered a risk, even dietary. But that study is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Ivan]

one more thing

Also take into account that fact that many men who use AAs for a long time, and continue to grow, are going to have larger bodies, and that forces the heart to work harder, and bp can become a factor as well. This is something most of us know yet continue to want more size. It is risk vs reward. I personally want to live a long time. I am not going to ever use AAS for longer than 12 weeks. Ever. I will never go above a gram of test a week and I will probably always be in the 210-230's, but I am cool with that. I like being powerful and muscular, but I do not need to look like a pro.*(although no matter the dose that is never happening) It is all about how long you want to delay death, and the choices we make in that endeavor.

 

[Crom]

No doubt high doses of AAS for long periods of time are damaging to the body in many ways, thanks for keeping us aware, Maldorf!

Ivan, also great post, putting things and the study in perspective.

I think many of us here including me really would want to know if there is any level as to were you are relatively "safe" from these heart and cardiovascular risks? What about guys on TRT that do cycles, they are never off!? At what point does a weekly dosage become damagaing? Above 500mg Test a week? 750mg?

 

[kid1dakota]

At what point does a weekly dosage become damagaing? Above 500mg Test a week? 750mg?

Well,only two have been done with any credibility,and by that I mean either a University study or one worthy of being published in a peer reviewed medical journal.

The 600 a week testosterone study
and
the 50 and 100 a day anadrol study

refer to those.

 

[trenjin]

these are pussy doses, if you die who cares get swole or die trying. Seriously I see fatasses eating themself to death every day. I eat vegies and lean meat and workout and hit cardio and hit supermodels and i get my bloodwork done twice a year and it comes out fine.

Using a case study is BS, its the smallest sample ever. There are tons of bros on the board living ass kicking lives cuz of gear. This is just propoganda to prevent us from living the dream.

I aint know Munzer but fuck it if i don't make it till 98 and only reach 88 im good.

 

[kid1dakota]

these are pussy doses, if you die who cares get swole or die trying. .

This board is for the INTELLIGENT discussion of all things related to bodybuilding.

 

[Crom]

Well,only two have been done with any credibility,and by that I mean either a University study or one worthy of being published in a peer reviewed medical journal.

The 600 a week testosterone study
and
the 50 and 100 a day anadrol study

refer to those.

Yeah, I remember the study with the 600mg test, but if I am not mistaken the study "only" lasted for 10 weeks!? I think you can get away with larger doses than that for 10 weeks also but I guess we will never know what long term use and what dosage used will cost you as long as there are no studies done.

 

[e6er]

I am not going to paraphrase and spoon feed the info in this study here. I am going to summarize some of the things I found interesting in this study. You then need to read through this study carefully, and pay close attention. Hopefully the terminology wont throw you off.

Here are some things I found rather interesting. The average age of the 4 guys in this study is 30 yrs old. They all had a normal resting heart rate and normal blood pressure. Anabolic steroids have been proven to increase the chances of getting a blood clot, CLINICALLY PROVEN. They have been proven to cause hypertrophy(thickening) of the heart in all walls, and this reverses considerably once they get off the steroids. The stiffening of the heart and lack of contractility (hypokenetic) do not seem to get better after steroids are stopped. Anabolic steroids bring on fibrotic changes in the heart(scar tissue like) and they think a lot of it is mediated by aldosterone. These fibrotic changes can be fought by taking spironolactone. I myself now take spironolactone because my cardiologist told me to. I now do what my doctor tells me to do. (PLEASE NOBODY GO SELF MEDICATING YOURSELF WITH SPIRONOLACTONE PLEASE!!)

Patient #2 almost died during exercise testing from an arrythmia . He had to be shocked several times to stop tachycardia and to avoid any further ventricular fibrillation. he did start to fibrillate some. I had this very same experience and now have a defibrillator planted in my chest. This patient was fooling around very foolishly with high doses of clen trying to get ready for a contest. I guess he didnt care if he died as long as he got a trophy.

Patient 4 had 3 blood clots when admitted to the hospital, yes 3!! One in his left leg, one in his right ventricle, and one in his left ventricle.

All patients resumed taking steroids eventually. Patient 4 left the study as soon as his blood clots were clear and was never heard from again. Bullheaded, ah those docs dont know nothin.

Just sit and spend some time. Most of you on here want to be educated on steriods, and its good that you see what can happen to the heart. Now I know many of you are going to think that they are taking mega doses and this isnt going to happen to me. It is hard to figure out what table one exactly means. I dont know if those #s are weekly doses or what, but they are on the high end. Looks like several grams of test a week maybe. Cannot really tell for certain how to interpret the table. It is foolish to throw away your conern for heart health in this matter thinking that the only reason they had trouble was the high doses. The effects here are additive,and collect over many years. these young men averaged age 30, and so they really had not been using all that long. Looking at the study, it seems the average years of usage was just 8 years. Even if someone were using 1/2 the dose, what will their heart look like in 16 years? 20 years? These men were 30 years old and hearts weaker than a healthy 90 year old man's. There is a good chance my father may out live me and he is 72 years old. Much healthier than I am.

Here is a link to the study.

**broken link removed**

I always enjoy your posts as you seem to always touch on the side effects of using which a lot of people are willing to look past. That is until something happens later on.

I wonder if the same goes for people on TRT, would the side effects be the same or limited due to only replacing what the body was making (assuming one is not taking more than they should)?

 

[juicin]

I am not going to paraphrase and spoon feed the info in this study here. I am going to summarize some of the things I found interesting in this study. You then need to read through this study carefully, and pay close attention. Hopefully the terminology wont throw you off.

Here are some things I found rather interesting. The average age of the 4 guys in this study is 30 yrs old. They all had a normal resting heart rate and normal blood pressure. Anabolic steroids have been proven to increase the chances of getting a blood clot, CLINICALLY PROVEN. They have been proven to cause hypertrophy(thickening) of the heart in all walls, and this reverses considerably once they get off the steroids. The stiffening of the heart and lack of contractility (hypokenetic) do not seem to get better after steroids are stopped. Anabolic steroids bring on fibrotic changes in the heart(scar tissue like) and they think a lot of it is mediated by aldosterone. These fibrotic changes can be fought by taking spironolactone. I myself now take spironolactone because my cardiologist told me to. I now do what my doctor tells me to do. (PLEASE NOBODY GO SELF MEDICATING YOURSELF WITH SPIRONOLACTONE PLEASE!!)

Patient #2 almost died during exercise testing from an arrythmia . He had to be shocked several times to stop tachycardia and to avoid any further ventricular fibrillation. he did start to fibrillate some. I had this very same experience and now have a defibrillator planted in my chest. This patient was fooling around very foolishly with high doses of clen trying to get ready for a contest. I guess he didnt care if he died as long as he got a trophy.

Patient 4 had 3 blood clots when admitted to the hospital, yes 3!! One in his left leg, one in his right ventricle, and one in his left ventricle.

All patients resumed taking steroids eventually. Patient 4 left the study as soon as his blood clots were clear and was never heard from again. Bullheaded, ah those docs dont know nothin.

Just sit and spend some time. Most of you on here want to be educated on steriods, and its good that you see what can happen to the heart. Now I know many of you are going to think that they are taking mega doses and this isnt going to happen to me. It is hard to figure out what table one exactly means. I dont know if those #s are weekly doses or what, but they are on the high end. Looks like several grams of test a week maybe. Cannot really tell for certain how to interpret the table. It is foolish to throw away your conern for heart health in this matter thinking that the only reason they had trouble was the high doses. The effects here are additive,and collect over many years. these young men averaged age 30, and so they really had not been using all that long. Looking at the study, it seems the average years of usage was just 8 years. Even if someone were using 1/2 the dose, what will their heart look like in 16 years? 20 years? These men were 30 years old and hearts weaker than a healthy 90 year old man's. There is a good chance my father may out live me and he is 72 years old. Much healthier than I am.

Here is a link to the study.

**broken link removed**

maldorf,

How were these participants of the study chosen? These arent 4 random AAS users, correct? They were patients that were already in the hospital because of damage?

 

[jalsmiley]

maldorf,

How were these participants of the study chosen? These arent 4 random AAS users, correct? They were patients that were already in the hospital because of damage?

yeah i was kind of wondering that also...it seems that they studied them based on them coming in from health problems

 

[jalsmiley]

that cant be right....who would take 170 mg of dbol a day? i think the doses were monthly. scientists arent going to think in BB cycle terms (weekly), they documented the duration of use in months so i assume they would do the same for doses. now if they said the duration of use was 52 weeks then i would think the dosages were also documented in weeks.

well they said hi doses! my wife is a ccrn she thought they were weekly also. but not sure cause it not written like studies she use to reading...but if you take what you say..who is going to do 110mg of anadrol monthly!!!?? they going to chop it up into crumbs!? it actually making me think this is BS...also from what it seems this is all suppose to be doses by memory...they werent watched during the timeframe just studied afterwards? correct or did i read wrong

 

[maldorf]

maldorf,

How were these participants of the study chosen? These arent 4 random AAS users, correct? They were patients that were already in the hospital because of damage?

All of you fail to understand one concept. Sure these guys were not randomly chosen and the population size is way too small to qualify as a rigorous scientific study. I never claimed it was anything but a case study. A case study is what it is. The medical community still respects studies like this because the data is analyzed scientifically.

The men showed marked improvement in their heart function and wall thickness after getting off of steroids. How do you explain away this!!? They stop taking steroids and their hearts get better. Is this just coincidence that both get better? When they analyzed the heart muscle biopsies they found fibrous bands of tissue intermixed in the cardiac muscle and irregular z bands(the area where two adjacent muscle cells cometogther). This is the same thing that has been replicalted in animal models.THey have tested AAS on animals and seen similar results. They cant obviously do a study on steroids on people because of the ethical reasons and dangers involved. So all we have to rely on is case studies of users like this.

What are the chances of two young men that are close friends, about age 30 or so, both coming into the ER with heart problems? Boy, I guess some people just really have bad luck.

 

[maldorf]

They should stop doing anything that could be considered a risk, even dietary. But that study is utterly ridiculous.

So youre going to just keep on doing what youre doing unless you suffer a bad health problem? What are you going to do if it turns out to be a blood clot like Bapper had? Sometimes you dont get much warning, and its too late. Oh well, just keep on keepin on.

 

[ericraven2003]

So youre going to just keep on doing what youre doing unless you suffer a bad health problem? What are you going to do if it turns out to be a blood clot like Bapper had? Sometimes you dont get much warning, and its too late. Oh well, just keep on keepin on.

Its the " it will never happen to me mentality". That is prevalent in many things. Not just steroids. Alchol, bad eating, recreational drugs. Many people will never stop until problem hits. I have a friend who got 4 dui's in 6 months during a seperation with his wife. The only reason he stopped at 4, because he was finally facing prison time.

 

[Pekkerwood]

Four of the participants friends in the gym did steroids and did not end up in the hospital. There is your proof that steroids are not bad for you.

There is no doubt in my mine that there are people on this board who think the second sentence makes more sense than the mentioned comments from the case study.

Folks:

1.There will always be "exceptions". One exception will disprove many theories in math, and physics. We are dealing with more of a "probablility" than a definative rule. I.E. "___ users" have a 20% higher risk of stroke before fifty, etc.
2. Because of the nature of the illegal substances (in some countries) and the stigma both of society and insurance companies, sample size will always be "too low" as people are fearful to report/participate.
3. I believe for the reasons detailed in #2 above, problems are underreported.
4. Even in a "definative" sample there are too many other variables which cannot be accounted for which will always give the naysayers an out.
5. A lot of readers of this board have a built in desire for a particular outcome to confirm their lifestyle choices.
6. There is nothing wrong with #5, its normal.


I hold a few "unproven" things to be "self evident".

1. Carrying a huge excess of lean muscle mass for a prolonged period of life makes the heart work harder than in a pasta eating, pilates, fellow who still watches his diet and exercises regularly. It will make my heart wear out quicker.

2. Having periods of thicker blood, elevated blood pressure, higher than normal liver values is worse for your body than not having these things present.

3. My cardiologist group, takes it as a given, that all the musclar athletes they deal with will have slightly enlarged hearts, and a good number will have thicker left ventricle walls.

4. Taking products produced in non-licensed inspected facilities and injecting them past the skin barrier, is riskier than not doing it.

5. Ordering illegal substances, receiving them, storing them, having there metabolites present in your blood stream is riskier than not doing it.

6. Spending money on drugs when you are not yet financially secure is less smart than not doing it.

7. Losing you hair faster at a younger age is generally less desirable than not doing it.

8. For everyone ten people who think they "monitor" their bodies and their usage in an intelligent manner, maybe two people do. Don't believe me? Where are the baseline numbers? Where are the baseline echocardiorgrams? Is bloodwork done b4, during, and after a cycle? How often a day during a cycle is blood pressure checked? False security may be more dangerous than no testing at all.

For reasons 1-thru 8, above, if you are a steroid/hormone user, do not let the fact that you didn't poop out your liver today, or stroke out this morning, make you believe that you have conclusive evidence that use of same is not harmful to your well being.

Then again, it may not be. Who knows?

 

[juicin]

All of you fail to understand one concept. Sure these guys were not randomly chosen and the population size is way too small to qualify as a rigorous scientific study. I never claimed it was anything but a case study. A case study is what it is. The medical community still respects studies like this because the data is analyzed scientifically.

The men showed marked improvement in their heart function and wall thickness after getting off of steroids. How do you explain away this!!? They stop taking steroids and their hearts get better. Is this just coincidence that both get better? When they analyzed the heart muscle biopsies they found fibrous bands of tissue intermixed in the cardiac muscle and irregular z bands(the area where two adjacent muscle cells cometogther). This is the same thing that has been replicalted in animal models.THey have tested AAS on animals and seen similar results. They cant obviously do a study on steroids on people because of the ethical reasons and dangers involved. So all we have to rely on is case studies of users like this.

What are the chances of two young men that are close friends, about age 30 or so, both coming into the ER with heart problems? Boy, I guess some people just really have bad luck.

maldorf,
I didnt mean that as an attack in any way man, or to sound sarcastic. I was just geniunly confused how the AAS users were chosen for this study.

I think we all should appreciate the fact that you were able to take the time out of your day to find this study and summarize it for us.

Is there any way of finding out if the amounts of AAS listed in the table were, infact, weekly or monthly?