Extended sets with multiple intensity techniques

[qbkilla]

Trevor Smith's Beyond Failure Training

I noticed the thread about him over at Alpha and decided I’d post what I have about him here. Some articles, some pics, etc. Insane training methodology and the guy was HUGE. Too bad he passed away. [quote]Beyond Failure Training It seems every day someone comes along with a new and improved...

forums.t-nation.com

Wondering people's thoughts on types of training like this...sst training or Trevor smith beyond failure training? Do you think extending a single set is a viable way to train for growth? Or is there a point where you have already failed anything beyond is only cutting into recovery wit little benefit similar to doing excessive high volume?

For example a pin loaded preacher curl. A rest pause set, then start dropping all the way down the stack....then do partials at the end followed by grabbing a band and doing curls till you can't move your arms. Are the final parts of the "set" adding value ?

 

[alfresco]

Trevor Smith's Beyond Failure Training

I noticed the thread about him over at Alpha and decided I’d post what I have about him here. Some articles, some pics, etc. Insane training methodology and the guy was HUGE. Too bad he passed away. [quote]Beyond Failure Training It seems every day someone comes along with a new and improved...

forums.t-nation.com

Wondering people's thoughts on types of training like this...sst training or Trevor smith beyond failure training? Do you think extending a single set is a viable way to train for growth? Or is there a point where you have already failed anything beyond is only cutting into recovery wit little benefit similar to doing excessive high volume?

For example a pin loaded preacher curl. A rest pause set, then start dropping all the way down the stack....then do partials at the end followed by grabbing a band and doing curls till you can't move your arms. Are the final parts of the "set" adding value ?

My opinion and experience on what you mentioned is that those ‘extended’ sets or a set that goes beyond failure have a place if used sparingly.

Helping somebody help you complete a last rep of a set that you yourself cannot do or cheating a last rep I think is fine but beyond that; multiple forced reps, drop sets, negatives, etc., on a regular basis, will eventually result in overtraining.

People training ‘enhanced’ I believe can tolerate more of this than others that are not but for the normal gym rat, these techniques should be used more infrequently.

Just keep accurate records of every set of every exercise and you will eventually understand the effects of your training modality.

You are unique . . . just like everybody else.

 

[275bills]

Just have fun with it

Example

Leg extensions 1 set 20 reps Then do a 10 second rest pause. Then a drop set , followed by partial reps

Then 3 sets 10 for squats

Next time do something different
Theres never going to be a right or wrong way

What worked for me a few years ago doesn’t work for me now

 

[buck]

Measuring weight and reps to see improvement would be far easier than trying to track intencity. So knowing how much rest is needed would be harder to judge. Seeing how much trama you can put a muscle through probably wont lead to the best gains in my opinion.

 

[juggy38]

on a drop set or any intensity method, there is a point where local fatigue and nervous system fatigue gets so high that there isn’t adequate tension on the muscle to do anything.

like 40lb curls dropto 30s, drop to 20s…going to 10s or bands isn’t doing anything other than pain threshold

 

[qbkilla]

on a drop set or any intensity method, there is a point where local fatigue and nervous system fatigue gets so high that there isn’t adequate tension on the muscle to do anything.

like 40lb curls dropto 30s, drop to 20s…going to 10s or bands isn’t doing anything other than pain threshold

This is why I'd question if it's a valid method. When we keep going, are we further stimulating the muscle or just using the cns? I would think something like a bicep curl, it's the muscle, but could be just the cns like you said. And how do we know when to stop, 3 drops, 5? Like you said, maybe the 20s are beneficial but the 10s aren't. Same for a giant set .. maybe 4 are the max amount where we're getting a benefit...but then I see Milos having guys do 8 different exercises consecutive.

 

[qbkilla]

My opinion and experience on what you mentioned is that those ‘extended’ sets or a set that goes beyond failure have a place if used sparingly.

Helping somebody help you complete a last rep of a set that you yourself cannot do or cheating a last rep I think is fine but beyond that; multiple forced reps, drop sets, negatives, etc., on a regular basis, will eventually result in overtraining.

People training ‘enhanced’ I believe can tolerate more of this than others that are not but for the normal gym rat, these techniques should be used more infrequently.

Just keep accurate records of every set of every exercise and you will eventually understand the effects of your training modality.

You are unique . . . just like everybody else.

Agree over training could be a concern. But w counter point, if someone did this they may only perform one set. So what's creating more growth and allowing recovery, one set like this or 4 normal sets? I think studies show dropset are equal to straight sets they just save time. So a guy doing 2 drop sets for example is getting the same stimulus and fatigue as a guy doing 4 normal sets but in less time.

I don't know how it all plays out but interesting to think about. Similar to DC training... make that one set super intense but only do 1 set and that part hasn't been trained forward that session.

 

[alfresco]

Agree over training could be a concern. But w counter point, if someone did this they may only perform one set. So what's creating more growth and allowing recovery, one set like this or 4 normal sets? I think studies show dropset are equal to straight sets they just save time. So a guy doing 2 drop sets for example is getting the same stimulus and fatigue as a guy doing 4 normal sets but in less time.

I don't know how it all plays out but interesting to think about. Similar to DC training... make that one set super intense but only do 1 set and that part hasn't been trained forward that session.

In my opinion, it all comes to accurate record keeping on your part so you know what works best for you.

 

[qbkilla]

In my opinion, it all comes to accurate record keeping on your part so you know what works best for you.

This is true. I think people could still measure progress on this method, by logging the initial rest pause set with 3 mini sets...just not measure the stuff that comes after

 

[aHarness]

like 40lb curls dropto 30s, drop to 20s…going to 10s or bands isn’t doing anything other than pain threshold

I understand literature may say this, but all my anecdotal experience and observations point to these intensity techniques being valuable for growth.

 

[qbkilla]

I understand literature may say this, but all my anecdotal experience and observations point to these intensity techniques being valuable for growth.

When you say literature, do you mean they have studies showing that after a certain amount of time the muscle fibers stop firing? Or showing there is no benefit?

 

[juggy38]

I understand literature may say this, but all my anecdotal experience and observations point to these intensity techniques being valuable for growth.

I got to one of my heaviest and leanest forms in my late 20s using strictly DC 3 way rest pause sets.

What I am saying is there is a line where we are no longer doing any good. In the OPs example of doing an exercise and 3,4,5 drops to the point of using resistance bands, is WELL beyond that.

Do you think the bands are doing ANYTHING to stimulate growth after your 3 straight sets with significant load, then add on the 4 loaded drop sets immediately prior to the band burnout?

Even John Meadows..king of intensifier (RIp) worst exercise he ever created..”Bulgarian split squat drop set of death” was 4 loaded drops.

 

[aHarness]

I got to one of my heaviest and leanest forms in my late 20s using strictly DC 3 way rest pause sets.

What I am saying is there is a line where we are no longer doing any good. In the OPs example of doing an exercise and 3,4,5 drops to the point of using resistance bands, is WELL beyond that.

Do you think the bands are doing ANYTHING to stimulate growth after your 3 straight sets with significant load, then add on the 4 loaded drop sets immediately prior to the band burnout?

Even John Meadows..king of intensifier (RIp) worst exercise he ever created..”Bulgarian split squat drop set of death” was 4 loaded drops.

Looks like we agree, I just misinterpreted your comment

 

[juggy38]

Looks like we agree, I just misinterpreted your comment

I was pretty sure you were referring to same same as I.

My top faves.

1) muscle rounds
2)DC sets
3 mechanical drop sets

As I’ve gotten older, I do “modified DC”

DC original: hammer press 3 plates…..11, 6, 3 reps. Each set is to absolute Grindy nasty red-faced failure.

Modified DC: hammer press 3 plates….8 reps(2 ish RIR), 6 reps (1-2 RIR), drop to 2 plates and a 25 quickly……7-8 reps using original DC try to meet god intensity.

This edited version allows me to do DC sets for more than one exercise per muscle group.

Example:

lat pull downs (mod DC)
Chest supported row (mod DC)
One arm cable supinated pulldown (mod dc)
Mag grip seated row (mod DC)

Still a hard session, but my CNS isn’t totally fucked unlike the old school DC two way split.

 

[luki7788]

I think this method is good as a shock method for a short period of 2-3 weeks, but not as a basis for training - it will burden your muscles too much and, as a result, instead of strengthening you, it will weaken you, and I prefer to do more straight sets so that I can do more work under greater load, e.g.

incline bench 140kg x6 reps x3 sets = 2520kg

vs dropset 140kg x8 +100x8 +60x12 =2640kg

theoretically, the volume is larger in the second option, but in practice only about 4-6 repetitions in each of these series will be stimulating, so in the first option we will actually do more effective work

 

[Mufasa123]

I think this method is good as a shock method for a short period of 2-3 weeks, but not as a basis for training - it will burden your muscles too much and, as a result, instead of strengthening you, it will weaken you, and I prefer to do more straight sets so that I can do more work under greater load, e.g.

incline bench 140kg x6 reps x3 sets = 2520kg

vs dropset 140kg x8 +100x8 +60x12 =2640kg

theoretically, the volume is larger in the second option, but in practice only about 4-6 repetitions in each of these series will be stimulating, so in the first option we will actually do more effective work

Dead on and backed by all available science too. Biggest factor is mechanical work (volume) in relevant weight range of %1RM (the real definition of intensity that got and magically stayed butchered) combined to equal applicable workload. To drive adaptation this must increase over time. Definitely some useful short term tricks to break through sticking points but this is the major explanatory variable in all medium or long term progress. Lots of gimmicks like TUT correlate with this (more work is nearly always more time) and that correlation with the true causal factor is the only reason it seems to work except very short term shock potentially.

Nothing magic happens at concentric failure. There is no Jones or Mentzer "light switch" - totally false understanding of the body, logic built on false premise - but they did get progressive loading right and failure is nothing more than a useful constraint of measurement (once again correlation to causality but not causality). Full recruitment is pretty easy to get to with reps in the tank beyond that it's rate coding via nervous system to keep motor units engaged and synchronized. Basically each rep gets more expensive/fatiging systemically from a neural standpoint but at the muscle, outside of increasing work, nothing magic just another rep.

 

[Heath82]

I think they are great for smaller muscle groups, delts, biceps…

 

[kastro]

I was pretty sure you were referring to same same as I.

My top faves.

1) muscle rounds
2)DC sets
3 mechanical drop sets

As I’ve gotten older, I do “modified DC”

DC original: hammer press 3 plates…..11, 6, 3 reps. Each set is to absolute Grindy nasty red-faced failure.

Modified DC: hammer press 3 plates….8 reps(2 ish RIR), 6 reps (1-2 RIR), drop to 2 plates and a 25 quickly……7-8 reps using original DC try to meet god intensity.

This edited version allows me to do DC sets for more than one exercise per muscle group.

Example:

lat pull downs (mod DC)
Chest supported row (mod DC)
One arm cable supinated pulldown (mod dc)
Mag grip seated row (mod DC)

Still a hard session, but my CNS isn’t totally fucked unlike the old school DC two way split.

Muscle rounds are great.I now use them on my deload periods.

 

[Cerberus777]

I'll do Rest pause and muscle rounds. Easy to track progress. I'll throw some partials on shoulders. Anything else I'll do if I know I have to take a week off for work related or family related reasons. Kinda do more so I need longer to recover.

 

[MouthBreather1982]

Trevor Smith's Beyond Failure Training

I noticed the thread about him over at Alpha and decided I’d post what I have about him here. Some articles, some pics, etc. Insane training methodology and the guy was HUGE. Too bad he passed away. [quote]Beyond Failure Training It seems every day someone comes along with a new and improved...

forums.t-nation.com

Wondering people's thoughts on types of training like this...sst training or Trevor smith beyond failure training? Do you think extending a single set is a viable way to train for growth? Or is there a point where you have already failed anything beyond is only cutting into recovery wit little benefit similar to doing excessive high volume?

For example a pin loaded preacher curl. A rest pause set, then start dropping all the way down the stack....then do partials at the end followed by grabbing a band and doing curls till you can't move your arms. Are the final parts of the "set" adding value ?

Yes heavy rest pause with weights you would be able to handle high reps of