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Extreme calorie cycling

sloh

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what do low days look like>. I need to cut back on fat on my refeeds. I try to eat low fat foods but with the chicken, rice cakes, yogurt, I ended up getting 50g last time, probably way higher than I should. do you have a number you try and stay below?
I try to shoot for a ratio of 4:1 carbs to fat at least (in grams)
 

showstopper83

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When it comes to building the maximum possible muscle mass and bodybuilding in general, the fast are a total mistake, but if someone just wants to look good and be healthy it can be helpful

In my experience, even with anabolics and gh, intermittent fasting is a disaster for trying to put on muscle.
 

Delt123

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Would you go purposely low with carbs on low days? I’m currently using this method while cutting. The variance isn’t THAT big, 600 calories difference between high and low days. On high days it’s basically protein and carbs with trace fats while on low days it’s protein and fats with a little carbs. My meals on low days are quite small this way and was wondering if some of you just eat protein and carbs with trace fats on both high and low days but mainly reduce calories from carbs basically?
 

luki7788

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Would you go purposely low with carbs on low days? I’m currently using this method while cutting. The variance isn’t THAT big, 600 calories difference between high and low days. On high days it’s basically protein and carbs with trace fats while on low days it’s protein and fats with a little carbs. My meals on low days are quite small this way and was wondering if some of you just eat protein and carbs with trace fats on both high and low days but mainly reduce calories from carbs basically?
As for me, I rotate mainly with carbohydrates, I only slightly add fats on low days, but I do it for offseason, while during preparation and cutting, the differences on low-high and non-training days are paradoxically much smaller than on off-season - it is dictated by the fact that the caloric plus this is the factor that worsens insulin importance the most, so I try to be on kcal deficit for at least 2 days off a week to prevent it from worsening. However, when cutting, we do not have to worry about sensitivity, but about maintaining as much muscles as possible and training parameters at the highest possible level.
 

Delt123

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As for me, I rotate mainly with carbohydrates, I only slightly add fats on low days, but I do it for offseason, while during preparation and cutting, the differences on low-high and non-training days are paradoxically much smaller than on off-season - it is dictated by the fact that the caloric plus this is the factor that worsens insulin importance the most, so I try to be on kcal deficit for at least 2 days off a week to prevent it from worsening. However, when cutting, we do not have to worry about sensitivity, but about maintaining as much muscles as possible and training parameters at the highest possible level.
Allright, I’ll try protein/carb with very little fat on both high and low days.

Yesterday I did that by ‘accident’ (wasn’t prepared well enough) and looked pretty damn good after a low day with 215 carb instead of 120 carb but with more fats.
 

Dugbet

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I would say with increasing the number of positive nitrogen balances, you need to understand that the body is not closed in a 24-hour time frame and will not realize that you were in a positive calorific 3 days and one is negative, so suddenly it stops building muscles

Yes, yes, I understand this point.

I think confusion stems from the body weight and calorie needs of someone like you and someone like me.

For you a day high in CH might be 600-800 grams, for me, it's 150 grams, lol.

So if you reduce your carbs to a minimum on a rest day, it means a drastic reduction in calories, to me, the difference is not that noticeable.
 

luki7788

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Yes, yes, I understand this point.

I think confusion stems from the body weight and calorie needs of someone like you and someone like me.

For you a day high in CH might be 600-800 grams, for me, it's 150 grams, lol.

So if you reduce your carbs to a minimum on a rest day, it means a drastic reduction in calories, to me, the difference is not that noticeable.
For me, a high day is 900-1100g lol 400-450g is a low day for me when it comes to the cutting phase, a non-training day is a completely different category for me and I go down to even 200g but only during the off-season, I never go so low during cut
 

qbkilla

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My issue. I try to keep fats minimal on high days. Also on my psmf days so I can have a high protein to energy ratio like bboy talked about. So is it healthy to not ever eat fat? No. So my solution is the medium day, get in alot of fat. But wondering what is the Bare minimum fat intake where you may have health or performance issues. My guess would be an average of 30 grams per day?
 

sloh

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@qbkilla

Don’t think we have studies to confidently say what the safe minimum fat intake is. Most will say to keep fats above 50 grams per day. You should also consider that if you allow your fats to go higher on the refeed days like 100 grams, and you pound the carbs like 800 grams, keep protein at around 1 gram per pound of LBM, it’s still a high carb refeed—and the absolute fat intake can be high enough that going pretty low in fat on your low days is less of an issue.

btw, sent you a DM
 

TheOtherOne55

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I've done some sort of caloric cycling for 5-10 years now...its just makes too much sense AND even if you do fall of the train, you can still keep some structure.

QB, i've done extreme stuff with EOD fasting and then more BBing lifestyle stuff since i've really tried to put on muscle mass the past 5 years. BOTH work and both give some flexibility to your dieting. Just the mental dynamic of, "god, get thru today and tomorrow youll feel better" will ALWAYS work wonders lol.

I run very similar to Luki tho. MOSTLY a carb rotation.
 

Dugbet

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My last tests were excellent in cholesterol and triglyceride levels, what was strange for me is that my HDL was higher than ever but I was barely eating fat in the diet, only a few capsules of Omega 3 a day, the diet was pure protein and vegetables.
 

qbkilla

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I try to shoot for a ratio of 4:1 carbs to fat at least (in grams)


It looks like our overall calorie intake is pretty similar. Your at 1.8 low, 4.5-5k high. I do 2k low, and 5k high, with the medium day of 3k in there to get some fats.

Your definitely getting more fat than me on high days. My last 5k day according to MFP was 383 pro, 856 carbs, 52 fat. I try to do all protein on low days (PSMF) but I usually intake 50g carbs (sauces to get down all the dry chicken and veggies) and about 50g fat from the meats.

Do you feel like if you were able to get the fat even lower and the carbs up, you would get leaner or be able to refeed more frequent?
 

qbkilla

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I've done some sort of caloric cycling for 5-10 years now...its just makes too much sense AND even if you do fall of the train, you can still keep some structure.

QB, i've done extreme stuff with EOD fasting and then more BBing lifestyle stuff since i've really tried to put on muscle mass the past 5 years. BOTH work and both give some flexibility to your dieting. Just the mental dynamic of, "god, get thru today and tomorrow youll feel better" will ALWAYS work wonders lol.

I run very similar to Luki tho. MOSTLY a carb rotation.

I feel you. At one point years ago I was losing wight and cutting up doing this..

Day 1, 500 calories before bed
Day 2, 500 calories before bed
Day 3, just cheat and eat. LOL

On day 3 I was getting in close to 9k, alot of junk, fat would go over 200. This worked for a while until I got too crazy on the high days and started to gain fat back. After a while I realized it wasn't good mentally I would obssses over the high days so switched back to a normal bodybuilding meal plan, but the shit actually did work for a bit.

I guess something that extreme can work in the short term but not long term (Atleast mentally). But it was good times, Dennys every day post workout on high days. My co works would think I was crazy bringing all these bags of food into work, bagel bites, tubs of yogurt, coke float before bed lol.

ADF worked great for m too. I think I finished my cut on 2400 calories ED, so it was 0 then a Nice day of 4800, repeat.
 

Tomgrass

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My last tests were excellent in cholesterol and triglyceride levels, what was strange for me is that my HDL was higher than ever but I was barely eating fat in the diet, only a few capsules of Omega 3 a day, the diet was pure protein and vegetables.
That is interesting my doctor was also amazed how good my results were and I don't add any extra fats just spoon of cod liver oil and what's in the food.
 

Dugbet

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That is interesting my doctor was also amazed how good my results were and I don't add any extra fats just spoon of cod liver oil and what's in the food.

The body works in strange ways, I expected to have triglycerides and cholesterol in the normal range or even low, of course, but not that HDL was elevated.
 

sloh

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It looks like our overall calorie intake is pretty similar. Your at 1.8 low, 4.5-5k high. I do 2k low, and 5k high, with the medium day of 3k in there to get some fats.

Your definitely getting more fat than me on high days. My last 5k day according to MFP was 383 pro, 856 carbs, 52 fat. I try to do all protein on low days (PSMF) but I usually intake 50g carbs (sauces to get down all the dry chicken and veggies) and about 50g fat from the meats.

Do you feel like if you were able to get the fat even lower and the carbs up, you would get leaner or be able to refeed more frequent?
Yeah I think if I drove fats down to 50 grams on the refeed days and replaced those with carbs, I would be able to refeed more frequently. The reason I haven’t is bc part of the reason I’m on this diet besides the recomp potential is that I do want to enjoy some foods I like that are a tad higher in fat. I feel like my current setup is a good balance where the fats are low enough I can usually baseline and refeed by the time I’m pretty ravenous; and I can also enjoy the refeeds
 

beastmode121

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I’m not a believer in calorie cycling and I think it’s extremely useless unless you use it as a life style method and not lose your social life.

What matters is your weekly calorie intake and protein intake.
how’s high calories on your lagging parts going to fix or even grow that lagging part? it won’t. There’s so many variables then just a day or 2 or high calorie intake.

It’s simple, you either gain muscle or lose fat, you can’t do both and call it calorie or carb cycling. so at the end of the week; did you go into a calorie surplus or are you in a calorie deficit.
 

qbkilla

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I’m not a believer in calorie cycling and I think it’s extremely useless unless you use it as a life style method and not lose your social life.

What matters is your weekly calorie intake and protein intake.
how’s high calories on your lagging parts going to fix or even grow that lagging part? it won’t. There’s so many variables then just a day or 2 or high calorie intake.

It’s simple, you either gain muscle or lose fat, you can’t do both and call it calorie or carb cycling. so at the end of the week; did you go into a calorie surplus or are you in a calorie deficit.

I see your point and don't necessarily disagree. But how can we say a week is the point where calories tally up vs a few days, month, year, etc

Say someone bulks for 6 months, cuts for 6 and over the year calories average 3k a day. Another cuts a week then bulks a week and they average 3k. Another does 0 a day 6k a day and average 3k daily for the year. Who will have the best gains?

I don't know the answer but it's good food for thought. Not that I think the guy doing adf would be bigger or leaner than the guy doing 6 months bulk/cut, but the math on paper says he should. Obviously in the real world it would play out different but it would be an interesting study

Guy a and guy b eat x amount of calories in a year (same number). One does adf all year, one bulks half the year then cuts lol
 

beastmode121

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I see your point and don't necessarily disagree. But how can we say a week is the point where calories tally up vs a few days, month, year, etc

Say someone bulks for 6 months, cuts for 6 and over the year calories average 3k a day. Another cuts a week then bulks a week and they average 3k. Another does 0 a day 6k a day and average 3k daily for the year. Who will have the best gains?

I don't know the answer but it's good food for thought. Not that I think the guy doing adf would be bigger or leaner than the guy doing 6 months bulk/cut, but the math on paper says he should. Obviously in the real world it would play out different but it would be an interesting study

Guy a and guy b eat x amount of calories in a year (same number). One does adf all year, one bulks half the year then cuts lol
that’s simple.
Bulking for a week or cutting for a week doesn’t work what so ever.
Even cutting for 2 or 3 weeks.. and the same goes with bulking. who do you know that gained muscle in 1 week or even 3.. unless you’re a genetic freak and blasting all kind of gear, no body.

Weekly calories matter; that’s why you need 3500 over your maintenance of 3500 below to gain or lose a pound.

Whoever came up with calorie cycling probably came up with intermittent fasting bullshit too
 

Tomgrass

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I have been playing with this idea for a moment at it seems to work. E3d I do kinda heavy loading on other days I do lower carbs trace fats. Proteins all the time High. My body does not like moderation all the time. It works so much better when I loading after every load I am bigger and heavier. Last time I was that big and that lean when I was using much more gear. But this time diet and eea few times a day do the job.
 

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