Fat gain to get muscle gain?

[bigbaldbulldog]

is it necessary to have to gain so much body fat % to make descent muscle gains?

It appears that many guys let their bodyfat % skyrocket up to 15-19% or higher to gain muscle mass...Why does everyone think that really works?

 

[MassMachine]

From my personal experience i need to bulk up. Im a natural so this is the only way i can gain mass. My bodyfat hovers around 18% when mass building. I tried using smaller increases and staying around 12% but my mass gains would only change slightly every year.
I can not speak for those on gear but the biggest guys i have ever seen always ate huge amounts of food and most coming from junk.
It works for Ronnie,Lee and many others.


MM

 

[monkey]

I don't subscribe to the "bulking up" theories myself.
I think you are almost always better off with slower, lean gains.
I believe any "weight" on the scale that's not muscle from your "bulking" phase is just shit weight that you'll end up wishing you never gained.

Lean, Slow, Clean gains is key.
High Protein, Low-Mod Carbs. Mod Fat.

Just my .02

 

[Bent_O_Bar]

I'm curious about this too. One trainer I talked to says you have to get big off season and lift very heavy weights if you really want to pack on muscle for when you diet down. But I've seen BB drop upwards of 50lbs, that's a hell of a lot of fat to drop and probably takes 5-6 meticulous months. If I'm going to be that meticulous I'd rather do it year round and look as good as possible while still gaining in strength in the workouts.

I found when I cranked up the food intake I got fat, but did not see any increases in strength from my usual diet (high protein/carbs workout day, high protein/low carb off day).

Then I read about stuff like more fat and bulk give you better leverage, that if you do extreme stretching (or bag enlargement type training) you have to have fully pumped muscles, the more the better, bulk provides cushoning from heavy weights, etc.

 

[worldspan]

My opinion is relevant to body type. Specifically, if you are an ectomorph
as I once was, the bulk as much as you can theory I feel is very relevant and has worked very well for me. Agree with the Doggcrap principle of having to look like a linebacker, "will not be a pretty picture" theory about getting b ig.
Again, I think this works well for ectos but not necessarily the other body types.

Worldspan

 

[xcelbeyond]

I don't subscribe to the "bulking up" theories myself.
I think you are almost always better off with slower, lean gains.
I believe any "weight" on the scale that's not muscle from your "bulking" phase is just shit weight that you'll end up wishing you never gained.

Lean, Slow, Clean gains is key.

I susbscribe to this theory in general as well. I have spent WAY TOO MUCH TIME on the roller coaster myself. Right now, I'm nearly as "heavy" as I've ever been but get winded too easy and really am ashamed of my "belly."

worldspan has an excellent point about ectos though. Many can eat the kitchen sink and everything off the floor and still have a difficult time gaining

 

[BigBoyJ]

My opinion is relevant to body type. Specifically, if you are an ectomorph
as I once was, the bulk as much as you can theory I feel is very relevant and has worked very well for me. Agree with the Doggcrap principle of having to look like a linebacker, "will not be a pretty picture" theory about getting b ig.
Again, I think this works well for ectos but not necessarily the other body types.

Worldspan

I totally agree with this. As a natural ectomorph myself, I have always had to go on a shit food rampage to put on mass. I don't let myself get too fat...well, I don't think I really can. With the amount of shit I eat, I should already be a fat shit if my body allowed it. Eating clean, even in huge amounts has never given me any gains. Junk food has always been the only way for me.

 

[Steak Helmet]

I think too as a hardgainer, I tend to get better results eating 70% clean and 30% shitty. If I eat 100% clean, I tend to have a tough time gaining weight...I would spend about 500.00 a day for a couple pounds...ok ok a bit overboard, but you get my point.

So for some of us, maybe the way to go is a bit more junk food to get things rolling...the lucky ones can eat clean and gain lots of weight.

 

[ZEBRA]

Bulk Then Cut

Here is an example of a guy who Bulked then cut.

**broken link removed**

Z

 

[totalrecall54]

I think too as a hardgainer, I tend to get better results eating 70% clean and 30% shitty. If I eat 100% clean, I tend to have a tough time gaining weight...I would spend about 500.00 a day for a couple pounds...ok ok a bit overboard, but you get my point.

So for some of us, maybe the way to go is a bit more junk food to get things rolling...the lucky ones can eat clean and gain lots of weight.

I'm with ya here Steak..... man.. i eat clean as hell.... it's harder than heck for me to gain anythinggg..... i'm too much of a puss to go on a big mac and fries breakfast , lunch and dinner... some guys seem to be able to do that.... and get mass out that wah-zoo.... i would just turn into a big pile of chunk !

suckssssssssssss

 

[totalrecall54]

impressive

Here is an example of a guy who Bulked then cut.

**broken link removed**

Z

damnnn !! pretty impressive!!

i wanna know more about carb depletion.. i've read some things on it... but i'd like to here you guys' personal experiences.... what did it entail... how'd you feel during it.... just some details on it....

my bodyfat is low.. i'm not sure what it is exactly.... and i eat clean... i just have this area right under my belly button.. that seems like it's constantly bloated..... (and nooooooooo i don't have to take a big dump or something)... .it's juts like a little bump.. that for the life of me.. WONTTT go away.... i do abs M,W,F and walk a mile or so each day... that's kinda it for cardio.... i don't want to lose any of my muslce.. by going nuts with too much cardio.... hell.. i'm hovering at like 180lbs as it is right now..

just wanting some thoughts
thanks
-totalrecall54

 

[MassMachine]

Steak and Cake

One of the best size diets ever is the Steak and Cake diet.

MM

 

[New_Mass]

My opinion is relevant to body type. Specifically, if you are an ectomorph
as I once was, the bulk as much as you can theory I feel is very relevant and has worked very well for me. Agree with the Doggcrap principle of having to look like a linebacker, "will not be a pretty picture" theory about getting b ig.
Again, I think this works well for ectos but not necessarily the other body types.

Worldspan

I also agree here, especially when just starting to train. in order for hardgainers to put on some muscle its best to eat heavy then worry about the strictly clean diet later which will be no problem shedding the small extra weight for ectos anyway because of their high metabolism

 

[rakatak]

Fat gains

I have problems with heavy eating, even though i eat clean i always seem to be gaining around the navel area.If i do too much cardio i stand to lose muscle gained.I am preparing my next cycle which i am taking suggestions from.35yo 180lbs 5ft 8" between 14-17% bf.Done 2 bulking cycles train M T TH F.been training natural for about 4 yrs and hit a stand still on gaining.Did first cycle of d/bol and test-e 10 wk April 2004 and BL ultratest 500, Deca and d/bol 10 week Jan 2005.Please help me choose the right cycle to achieve some results at least.

 

[xcelbeyond]

I have problems with heavy eating, even though i eat clean i always seem to be gaining around the navel area.If i do too much cardio i stand to lose muscle gained.I am preparing my next cycle which i am taking suggestions from.35yo 180lbs 5ft 8" between 14-17% bf.Done 2 bulking cycles train M T TH F.been training natural for about 4 yrs and hit a stand still on gaining.Did first cycle of d/bol and test-e 10 wk April 2004 and BL ultratest 500, Deca and d/bol 10 week Jan 2005.Please help me choose the right cycle to achieve some results at least.

This is exactly what's been happening to me. It seems to get worse (harder to control), the older you get. The key is to still figure out your "diet," not the "cycle." You should loose "less" muscle when dieting "on" gear but unless you're doing the right things, the gear isn't going to be the big difference. In fact, you probably don't need a lot of gear to do this.

 

[BigMatt]

It depend if your natural or echanced...

I think most natty should eat More carbs to maintain Anabolic 'zone'.

If you want to gain REAL size you need to eat BIG.
That come with Fats deposit but trust me when you have more muscle than before the fat will burn off faster...

Take powerlifters for example

I seen several times Powerlifters going on a cutting diet and destroy Bodybuilders in thickness and density.

Those Flex/Muscle developpement Routines are a real jokes.
No wonder peoples in gym complaing about making no gains.
Overtraining+No enough eating leads to no gains and overstress the CNS.

I put one guy at my gym on my routine.
The guy was training 5 Sets Each per bodypart (Overtraining big time)
Mind you the guy is natural.
I say try this.

Monday : LEG Press 3 Sets (Maximun Effort until Failure last set)

Friday: Deadlift 3 Sets (Maximun Effort Until Failure last Set)

Next Wensday : LEG Press 3 Sets (Put more weight (Maximun Maximun Effort until Failure last set)

The guy cant believe how much he is growing with just those exercise.
What i did his let his body and CNS Recuperate Fully Before Working out again.

In the next week im going to add Flat/Incline Bench Press into his Routine.
BUT maintain 4 day Break betweens workout.

Sorry if im making spelling mistake. Im russian/French.

 

[worldspan]

It depend if your natural or echanced...

I think most natty should eat More carbs to maintain Anabolic 'zone'.

If you want to gain REAL size you need to eat.

Take powerlifters for ex.

I seen several Times Powerlifters going on a cutting diet and destroy Bodybuilders in thickness and density

Last Line very well spoken.

Who would I rather prep for a bodybuilding show ? A bodybuilder or a powerlifter ?

Without a doubt the powerlifter, if he has the tenacity to diet properly,
he will destroy the bodybuilder on stage!

Worldspan

 

[gooey]

guess I dont agree

Last Line very well spoken.

Who would I rather prep for a bodybuilding show ? A bodybuilder or a powerlifter ?

Without a doubt the powerlifter, if he has the tenacity to diet properly,
he will destroy the bodybuilder on stage!

Worldspan

besides ronnie and johnnie who both r powerlifters/BBers, if a Powerlifter dieted down they dont look as pretty as a true BBer. They will never have the tiny joint structure, tiny waste, and true aesthetic porportions. They may look thicker and have more muscle, but it doesnt look as good, and doesnt have the beauty of a good BBer
gooey

 

[Bent_O_Bar]

Most PL will NOT look anywhere near a BB and wouldn't even place on stage. Mass alone will not win a contest.

Having said that, there is a middle ground for a guy wanting to 'look' like a BB (have a decent sillouette) while doing far less training than in the BB mags.

One of the best routines (2x per week) I've ever done is this;

day one;

incline dumbell press
lying french press
dips
squats
standing calf
forearms

day two (3 days or so rest);

deadlift
chins
seated barbell press
curls
seated calf

After a full body warmup I'd do whatever warmup sets required for each exercise and do 1 or 2 very hard sets, usually to positive failure. For lagging bodyparts I'd do a short cycle of forced reps, negatives, RP, etc. The workouts are not long but very hard, not the types you feel like throwing in another set for. Cycles last 2-4 weeks hard, 1 week light, then back on. I've never taken any drugs so guys on them may be able to do more.

I proritize too, if I want to focus on DL I put that first and go heavy, but put squats in maintenance mode and do not add weight until I swtich to legs as priority. Once squats take priority DL goes into maintenence mode, this way I don't get hammered with 2 very big and heavy exercises 2x a week, I only deal with one. On all other exercises I aim to add weight and/or reps each workout of the hard cycle.

Diet is high protein each day, low carbs off days, medium carbs workout days. I've managed to build that sillouette and keep BF decent (not ripped but not fat either), abs are visible each day.

 

[bigbaldbulldog]

calories....

eating junk to keep your calories high is one thing gettign your bodyfat into the upper teens is another...

i had Phil give me a diet to follow and it was all based on ratios...after 17 years of bodybuilding i went from 135-195lbs @ 13%...and stagnated for 2 1/2 years...

after 12 months of Phils diet i went from 195lbs to 225lbs 9%...

My diet was cleaner then ever before and my training was cut in half...in short i put less time in the gym and more time into diet and nutrition and wala...i gained 30 lbs in 12 months...i do not subscribe to the high fat bf % to gain muscle...

Supplements that he carries are simply the best i have ever used...contact him for details and well worth money for his plan, diet and nutritional advice..