Healthy debate....my thoughts

[PHIL HERNON]

I wanted to exspress some of my reasoning as to why I believe in my methods and why my clients seem to be happy with the routine....this may also clear up some confusion to others seeking some smart advice.....possible others with different opinions can speak up and we can learn something new.

1. Refeeds-If you have to refeed then you are not giving yourself enough "feeds" during the day. This sport is about making changes like an airline pilot......then need to be made NOW unless you want to crash.

2. Drinking 1 gallon of water a day-How does everyone magically come up with 1 gallon? Drink when thirsty.....it may be 10 galons.....who knows. Tell me how much you will be urinating today then I will listen to the gallon theory.

3. Eating every 2 hours- How do you know 2 hours? 3 hours? What if you need something in 15 minutes? You gonna wait another 2 hours? Eat when hungry......

4. Eat when hungry- What does that mean? Well, this needs to be worked out so you KNOW what it means. It takes an intelligent person to figure out that if you eat when "this hungry"...."this " is what wil happen........it does not mean just randomly eat..........and you need to be choosy about what you eat as to know how the macros effect you also........then we can go from there.

5. I think JRs made a good point earlier.......Stay with foods you are comfortable with.....YOUR FOODS that you family has been eating for generations.........that is what digests best. I cantr tell you what to eat....I can only give you a guideline. Too many want what time and what foods......it does not work that way.

6. Training-Free weights and do not overtrain......who cares about reps.....I will not tell you how many reps to do because it does not matter.....other things are more important.

 

[Mr.G]

I saw this video of Evan before the NY Pro & when he talks about training & eating with Oscar it sounds similar.
**broken link removed**

 

[bizwebb]

I wanted to exspress some of my reasoning as to why I believe in my methods and why my clients seem to be happy with the routine....this may also clear up some confusion to others seeking some smart advice.....possible others with different opinions can speak up and we can learn something new.

1. Refeeds-If you have to refeed then you are not giving yourself enough "feeds" during the day. This sport is about making changes like an airline pilot......then need to be made NOW unless you want to crash.

2. Drinking 1 gallon of water a day-How does everyone magically come up with 1 gallon? Drink when thirsty.....it may be 10 galons.....who knows. Tell me how much you will be urinating today then I will listen to the gallon theory.

3. Eating every 2 hours- How do you know 2 hours? 3 hours? What if you need something in 15 minutes? You gonna wait another 2 hours? Eat when hungry......

4. Eat when hungry- What does that mean? Well, this needs to be worked out so you KNOW what it means. It takes an intelligent person to figure out that if you eat when "this hungry"...."this " is what wil happen........it does not mean just randomly eat..........and you need to be choosy about what you eat as to know how the macros effect you also........then we can go from there.

5. I think JRs made a good point earlier.......Stay with foods you are comfortable with.....YOUR FOODS that you family has been eating for generations.........that is what digests best. I cantr tell you what to eat....I can only give you a guideline. Too many want what time and what foods......it does not work that way.

6. Training-Free weights and do not overtrain......who cares about reps.....I will not tell you how many reps to do because it does not matter.....other things are more important.

1. Good analogy. Refeeds imply there has been a period of underfeeding, which is counterproductive for me. It doesn't take me long to feel the effects of malnourishment. Affects my mood and energy levels.

2. Another good point. How much water a person should drink is arbitrary and dependent on too many factors to give a generalization of "a-gallon-a-day" or "8-glasses-a-day". I increase water intake if my urine looks too concentrated, otherwise, I drink when I am thirsty and until my thirst is quenched. If I ever can't seem to quench my thirst, I am going to get screened for diabetes.

3. HAHA. I have a friend who eats every few hours, and each meal is fairly big and unhealthy (high starch and high fat) and he gains no bodyfat, or weight for that matter. If I ate like that I would be Jaba the Hut. Point being that how often you eat (within reason of course) is not the rate limiting step in gaining muscle, losing fat, etc, it is what you eat and what occurs when you do eat (nutrient partitioning, insulin release and sensitivity, T3/T4 levels, etc...).

4. So true. You can eat when hungry, but sometimes if you go without eating for too long you stop feeling hungry as you begin to catabolize muscle and deplete the liver and muscles of glycogen. If you wait until you are hungry again, what damage might have already been done? Also depends on what you had for your last meal. A heavy portion of animal proteins and fats will keep you feeling full longer...

5. Agreed.

6. I do differ a bit here in that I feel muscles can be developed without the use of free weights, but it is one of those things that sounds good in theory, but would I stop using free weights to prove it? Hell no. Avoid overtaining and do not confuse it with overreaching. Sometimes you have to reach beyond your norm to force adaptation, but doing so too often will lead to a reversal of fortune. I do believe that rep guidelines are valuable, especially depending on the training goal and exercise being performed. If I train a lineman to explode from his stance and engage the DL with as much power as possible, yet allow him to train in power cleans using light weights and doing sets of 15-20 reps, I would be doing him a disservice. That example can be twisted several ways to fit different scenarios. The one thing I typically do not tell people is how much weight they should lift. It is an arbitrary number relative the number of reps they are performing, their training status, their genetics, their gender, their willpower, their mood, their recovery rate, and the list goes on and on. It is a common (stupid) question: "How much should I be lifting?" Ummm, as much as you can.

 

[Diesel City]

I wanted to exspress some of my reasoning as to why I believe in my methods and why my clients seem to be happy with the routine....this may also clear up some confusion to others seeking some smart advice.....possible others with different opinions can speak up and we can learn something new.

1. Refeeds-If you have to refeed then you are not giving yourself enough "feeds" during the day. This sport is about making changes like an airline pilot......then need to be made NOW unless you want to crash.

2. Drinking 1 gallon of water a day-How does everyone magically come up with 1 gallon? Drink when thirsty.....it may be 10 galons.....who knows. Tell me how much you will be urinating today then I will listen to the gallon theory.

3. Eating every 2 hours- How do you know 2 hours? 3 hours? What if you need something in 15 minutes? You gonna wait another 2 hours? Eat when hungry......

4. Eat when hungry- What does that mean? Well, this needs to be worked out so you KNOW what it means. It takes an intelligent person to figure out that if you eat when "this hungry"...."this " is what wil happen........it does not mean just randomly eat..........and you need to be choosy about what you eat as to know how the macros effect you also........then we can go from there.

5. I think JRs made a good point earlier.......Stay with foods you are comfortable with.....YOUR FOODS that you family has been eating for generations.........that is what digests best. I cantr tell you what to eat....I can only give you a guideline. Too many want what time and what foods......it does not work that way.

6. Training-Free weights and do not overtrain......who cares about reps.....I will not tell you how many reps to do because it does not matter.....other things are more important.

Isn't there more than one way to skin a cat? I'm not implying that one works better than another. There are plenty of progress pics on this forum that indicate there are a number of ways to improve.

 

[Ness]

What else Phil has taught me:

1. Keep it simple. Listen to your body. If youre tired, sleep. If you need a break from the gym, then do it.

2. Dont worry about how a weight "feels." Pick up the heaviest thing you can until you cant anymore.

3. Be loyal a recipe. Too many cooks in the kitchen will ruin the soup. In other words, listen to one guy you trust and forget what everyone else says.

 

[tybolltt]

1. Refeeds-If you have to refeed then you are not giving yourself enough "feeds" during the day. This sport is about making changes like an airline pilot......then need to be made NOW unless you want to crash.

The arguement for refeeds is based around leptin sensitivity and psychological reasons. I'm not sure I buy into the leptin aspect of things, not yet anyway, but psychologically speaking, the feeling of deprivation can be catastrophic and lead to the rebound you are refering to. I will say this, I've been trained by nearly everyone, and some address this issue and some do not. Some address this issue in a way that actually makes sense, but I can't actually share that on here. I will say that DC addresses this in a manner that is beyond logical, meaning, he approaches 'refeeds' in a highly productive manner.

2. Drinking 1 gallon of water a day-How does everyone magically come up with 1 gallon? Drink when thirsty.....it may be 10 galons.....who knows. Tell me how much you will be urinating today then I will listen to the gallon theory.

This 'recommendation' comes from guys like Dan Bernardot who claim that real athletes sweat a ton, have no reason to limit sodium, and should accompany sodium ingestion with higher amounts of liquid to avoid dehydration. Sodium loss rates are enormous in highly trained athletes who sweat profusely, and that loss in sodium should be replaced.

3. Eating every 2 hours- How do you know 2 hours? 3 hours? What if you need something in 15 minutes? You gonna wait another 2 hours? Eat when hungry......

This recommendation I think is based on hard training athletes. Most hard training athletes will probably be hungry every 2-3hours, I do however think there are a myriad of exceptions to this rule, one of which you bring up.

4. Eat when hungry- What does that mean? Well, this needs to be worked out so you KNOW what it means. It takes an intelligent person to figure out that if you eat when "this hungry"...."this " is what wil happen........it does not mean just randomly eat..........and you need to be choosy about what you eat as to know how the macros effect you also........then we can go from there.

5. I think JRs made a good point earlier.......Stay with foods you are comfortable with.....YOUR FOODS that you family has been eating for generations.........that is what digests best. I cantr tell you what to eat....I can only give you a guideline. Too many want what time and what foods......it does not work that way.

Some of the foods we are 'comfortable' with are catastrophic to the pursuit of physique enhancement.

6. Training-Free weights and do not overtrain......who cares about reps.....I will not tell you how many reps to do because it does not matter.....other things are more important.

Carpinellis understanding of the Size Principle is right in line with your though process here and I highly doubt ANYONE will counter it sufficiently

 

[Flexican]

Thanks Phil! You are a great asset to this site (among many) all the things you listed are hard lessons to learn, but so logical.
I guess the main thing is that this sport is very individual.

 

[unoigo]

1. Good analogy. Refeeds imply there has been a period of underfeeding, which is counterproductive for me. It doesn't take me long to feel the effects of malnourishment. Affects my mood and energy levels.

^^^When dieting, you are normally underfeeding. Not to many people can loose body fat while eating at or above maintenance.

Phil - how do you define Refeeding? I ask because I think the term is thrown around too much. I believe there is a difference.... it could mean cheat meals, slightly raising CBO intake on given days, or even an all out Skipload where CBO intake could be 1000g +

Also, how much protein do feel a competitive BB needs? I like your theory of eating when hungry but if protein is the main macro used to build muscle, how can one continuously build muscle is they are eating xxx grams of protein when they feel like it? I made decent gains last offseason and there were times when I force fed myself to ensure I got my protein for the day in. I may be wrong but I don't think I would have made the same gains if I decided just not to eat.

I appreciate the open dialog!

 

[Moen]

If I remember correctly, Carpinelli's reinterpretation of the size principle is that weight does not matter, as long as you train to failure. He basically said light weights to failure will elicit the same effect as heavy weight to failure, as long as you don't end up too oxygen depleted by using extremely light weight for high reps.

That's not what Phil is saying here.

 

[tybolltt]

If I remember correctly, Carpinelli's reinterpretation of the size principle is that weight does not matter, as long as you train to failure. He basically said light weights to failure will elicit the same effect as heavy weight to failure, as long as you don't end up too oxygen depleted by using extremely light weight for high reps.

That's not what Phil is saying here.

Carpinelli's understanding of the Size Principle dictates that rep ranges mean nothing, and intensity of effort are the determining factors of fiber taxation. So, I think we are on the same page. However, Phil states in the last few lines of his post that rep ranges don't matter. Phil has also made several cases for training to failure. So I would say that is in fact what Phil is saying here.

 

[Designbuilt]

I wanted to exspress some of my reasoning as to why I believe in my methods and why my clients seem to be happy with the routine....this may also clear up some confusion to others seeking some smart advice.....possible others with different opinions can speak up and we can learn something new.

1. Refeeds-If you have to refeed then you are not giving yourself enough "feeds" during the day. This sport is about making changes like an airline pilot......then need to be made NOW unless you want to crash.

2. Drinking 1 gallon of water a day-How does everyone magically come up with 1 gallon? Drink when thirsty.....it may be 10 galons.....who knows. Tell me how much you will be urinating today then I will listen to the gallon theory.

3. Eating every 2 hours- How do you know 2 hours? 3 hours? What if you need something in 15 minutes? You gonna wait another 2 hours? Eat when hungry......

4. Eat when hungry- What does that mean? Well, this needs to be worked out so you KNOW what it means. It takes an intelligent person to figure out that if you eat when "this hungry"...."this " is what wil happen........it does not mean just randomly eat..........and you need to be choosy about what you eat as to know how the macros effect you also........then we can go from there.

5. I think JRs made a good point earlier.......Stay with foods you are comfortable with.....YOUR FOODS that you family has been eating for generations.........that is what digests best. I cantr tell you what to eat....I can only give you a guideline. Too many want what time and what foods......it does not work that way.

6. Training-Free weights and do not overtrain......who cares about reps.....I will not tell you how many reps to do because it does not matter.....other things are more important.

I'm very glad that you posted this. When I first started your program, I followed it, but there were a few things that I was too stubborn to let go, because it was put into my head from years of hearing it over and over. But recently I learned to trust and followed your advice completely and I have to say that I did change a lot over the last two weeks, since I've been following everything exactly as you stated.

However, I always like to hear the reasoning behind things, before it was as if you just instructed what to do, but not the reasoning behind it.

Now that I am reading the logic behind your ideas, it's easier for me to follow the program.

Thanks

 

[OxFuckedInTheAss]

*LOL*. I have to agree with keeping it simple. l like phil's reasoning.


It seems like, with all the different opinions on whats the best way to build muscle, with minimal fat/water gain, there would be a way to x-ray/mri/etc. subjects to finally get to the bottom of it. with current tech., it seems doable.



OP

 

[bizwebb]

^^^When dieting, you are normally underfeeding. Not to many people can loose body fat while eating at or above maintenance.

Phil - how do you define Refeeding? I ask because I think the term is thrown around too much. I believe there is a difference.... it could mean cheat meals, slightly raising CBO intake on given days, or even an all out Skipload where CBO intake could be 1000g +

I think the question is if you make minor adjustments to your diet (lest you have a horrible diet to begin with and need a major overhaul) daily, will you still end up in the same place as if you had used tactics such as restrictive food intake followed by refeeds? If so, why put yourself through the rigors of purge/binge diets? For me , I prefer a steady approach, but I do not fault those who choose other approaches, especially if it works. Conventional wisdom dictates that what is not broken, does not need to be fixed.

 

[Moen]

Carpinelli's understanding of the Size Principle dictates that rep ranges mean nothing, and intensity of effort are the determining factors of fiber taxation. So, I think we are on the same page. However, Phil states in the last few lines of his post that rep ranges don't matter. Phil has also made several cases for training to failure. So I would say that is in fact what Phil is saying here.

I'm very tired so I'm probably missing it completely (in fact I'm rather sure I'm missing the point now lol) but doesnt carpinelli say: weight doesnt matter while phil says: weight does matter, as in heavier weights = bigger muscles

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Yes

Good points by all.......I will address a few.......

1. Eat foods that are........indigenous to your race/family/genetics......then I have you follow a macro outline........not asking you to eat cheescake or something catastrophic in the like.

2. Definition of refeeds....good point. What is the time frame to be considered a "refeed"? Could it possibly be every time you are hungry or does it have to be days?........will it have the same effect if taken to a more extreme time frame? Think about it........

3. Reps dont matter? No and yes........they do not matter for the weight you are asked to do FOR THAT SET.........but you must go to failure..........so you cannot stop short....but my sets are very different and naturally you will be using a diverse rep scheme......but the weight will dictate the reps and rep speed.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

OK

Definately many paths to the same destination.

Different paths work great for different people.

If I ate only when I was hungry, I would still weight 185lbs and not 250lbs.

Eating every three hours has changed my body big time.


Good thread though. I look forward to seeing more opinions.

Thanks Phil.

1. Are you natural?
2. What is your body fay level?
3. Do you compete?
I mean, if you are not natural, do not blame eating at certain times to being 250 especially if you are not lean..........got pics?

 

[tybolltt]

I'm very tired so I'm probably missing it completely (in fact I'm rather sure I'm missing the point now lol) but doesnt carpinelli say: weight doesnt matter while phil says: weight does matter, as in heavier weights = bigger muscles

No, I think we are on the same page. Carpinelli says weight doesn't matter as long as you train to failure. He also states that by training to failure you will get stronger and experience hypertrophy.

Phil has argued that if you train to failure you will get stronger and experience hypertrophy. Phil doesn't however advocate to the best of my knowledge anyway, training exlusively for strength, in fact if I remember correctly he isn't a huge proponent of ultra heavy weights, such as ME type protocols. So from what I recollect, Phil advocates moderate rep ranges to failure.

At the end of the day, IMHO they are saying the same thing, although, Carpinelli's rep recommendations were as high as 20 and low as 2; so, Carpinelli's recommendations have a wider variance than Phil's recommendations.

 

[OxFuckedInTheAss]

weight does matter, as in heavier weights = bigger muscles

Not necessarily. Look at your 135lb power-lifters.



OP

 

[tybolltt]

Good points by all.......I will address a few.......

1. Eat foods that are........indigenous to your race/family/genetics......then I have you follow a macro outline........not asking you to eat cheescake or something catastrophic in the like.

Fair enough on that front.

2. Definition of refeeds....good point. What is the time frame to be considered a "refeed"? Could it possibly be every time you are hungry or does it have to be days?........will it have the same effect if taken to a more extreme time frame? Think about it........

I think the time frame for a given person to refeed is highly variable, but I've witnessed and experienced tremendous results with 1-2 ultra high carb meals per week.

What do you think about intermittent fasting and cyclical diets? When I look back on training records I did something like an intermittent cyclical bulk; who put this together for me I will not say, but he's on this board all the time.

3. Reps dont matter? No and yes........they do not matter for the weight you are asked to do FOR THAT SET.........but you must go to failure..........so you cannot stop short....but my sets are very different and naturally you will be using a diverse rep scheme......but the weight will dictate the reps and rep speed.

What are you saying here regarding rep speed?
[/QUOTE]

 

[Moen]

No, I think we are on the same page. Carpinelli says weight doesn't matter as long as you train to failure. He also states that by training to failure you will get stronger and experience hypertrophy.

Phil has argued that if you train to failure you will get stronger and experience hypertrophy. Phil doesn't however advocate to the best of my knowledge anyway, training exlusively for strength, in fact if I remember correctly he isn't a huge proponent of ultra heavy weights, such as ME type protocols. So from what I recollect, Phil advocates moderate rep ranges to failure.

At the end of the day, IMHO they are saying the same thing, although, Carpinelli's rep recommendations were as high as 20 and low as 2; so, Carpinelli's recommendations have a wider variance than Phil's recommendations.

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