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HGH and Insulin dosing options/timing.

Gunsmith

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I know this has been brought up several times but I wanted to ask in a specific post to get different opinions , hopefully some experience and science to explain when and whys.

So let's say the subject has the ability to run HGH at 6-8iu a day and Insulin (log or R).

Would dosing the HGH 3iu-4iu first thing in the morning fasted (5am) , take the insulin right before/after training (5pm) then take the second dose of HGH 3iu-4iu before bed at say 10pm

Or would dosing all 6iu-8iu HGH and Insulin directly before or after training be more effective.??

Diet would be high protein moderate fats and carbs in only during/after training during the active life of the insulin Other AAS would be taken as well. The goal would be to stay lean or get leaner while adding size.

Which protocol would you choose (or offer another) and why??
 

Nextlevel

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I would take my first dose of hgh with 2-3 iu slin in the am and the second dose of hgh with 2-3 iu of slin PRE workout
 

Gunsmith

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I would take my first dose of hgh with 2-3 iu slin in the am and the second dose of hgh with 2-3 iu of slin PRE workout
So you would take the HGH and Insulin at the same time??
What's your reason behind that.??
Not calling you out just wanted get everyone opinions and why they do what they do , has that work in the past , did you read it's somewhere ect.
 

GetYucked

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I’ve always “read” that they battle against each other so I take them as far away as possible. I’ve only used slin once, for 4 weeks, but I put on noticeable size.

5 iu gh am
5 iu gh mid day
10 iu slin pre with 150 carbs.
10 iu slin post with 150 carbs.
 

IronLion2

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Slin with GH before training;
-Net muscle breakdown decreases
-Nitrogen retention and Amino uptake increases
-Increased lipolysis
-Decreased recovery time

Slin is needed with GH before and after training but not away from the work out. GH is going to use free fatty acids for energy and ignore glucose metabolism, thats only a problem during the workout window.
 

concreter

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Gh 1 hr pre so it peaks near the end of your workout.
Slin immediately post so both peak at the same time!
 

Sec-Training

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10-20 iu og log pre and post traning. I did around 5-7 gram of carb PR iu. To max IT out i did the same in the morning so around 30 to 60iu of humalog. Only off season. I can handle the low blod sugar very well

Offseason 3-5times a week.
 

Gunsmith

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10-20 iu og log pre and post traning. I did around 5-7 gram of carb PR iu. To max IT out i did the same in the morning so around 30 to 60iu of humalog. Only off season. I can handle the low blod sugar very well

Offseason 3-5times a week.
Did you incorporate HGH at all?
 

Sec-Training

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Did you incorporate HGH at all?
no i dont have the money for it.
pre workout 15iu at 6,6 grams pr iu and that is 100 grams of carbs and
postwork 20iu post at 7,5 grams og carbs pr iu carbs that is 150

250grams of carbs. i have around 350grams a day
 

joos23

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no i dont have the money for it.
pre workout 15iu at 6,6 grams pr iu and that is 100 grams of carbs and
postwork 20iu post at 7,5 grams og carbs pr iu carbs that is 150

250grams of carbs. i have around 350grams a day
What are your carb sources when your using slin
 

Sec-Training

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What are your carb sources when your using slin
just to be clear I don't use the same dose all the time.
high days when training 2 WO a day be as high as 60iu = around 450grams off carbs, but mostly it is 30-40iu=280 grams of carbs on high days (1-3 times a week)
low days 8-15iu a day
I always mix it up the dose every time. I think it works better than just jamming in slin all the time and have to catch up with cars and getting to fat.

I will be a protein shake 40gram of protein. cabs sources are.

prewo oats mix with dextrose 70-30 mix,
prewo homemade bread with some type of jam.
to much sugar/powder, never did me any good or fancy powder, just make it simple.

post wo food is meat with rice/potatoes/homemade fries/pasta/bread nothing special.

I use Novolog it spikes after 15min and out after a couple of hours
it is very easy to control. I always have a Powerade in my bag just to be sure.
 

MyNameIsJeff

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Not inclined to look up all the references again (especially with the search function still broken), but here is how I do it:

Split GH into 2 doses per day. First dose 1h pre workout, so that GH levels peak around 1 hours after after the workout ends. Second half of the dose injected prior to bedtime. You don't want insulin and GH to peak at the same time. Instead, you want to use Insulin prior to GH in order to prime your body for IGF1 production. So I would use (short acting) insulin pre/intra workout along with EAAs, dextrose/cyclic dextrin, glutamine, creatine, etc.

Keep in mind that GH makes you massively insulin resistant while it peaks in the blood. So the insulin will have a very hard time pushing in all those nutrients in the presence of GH. Hence, insulin+carbs first, followed by GH. If you don't use any insulin and intra-workout carbs, then you can inject the GH 2-3 hours prior to working out. The nightly GH dose is important for several reasons, most notably brain health and anti-catabolism. GH in the morning makes no sense, by the time it peaks (3.5 hours) you already ate and are no longer catabolic.
 

madg

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Not inclined to look up all the references again (especially with the search function still broken), but here is how I do it:

Split GH into 2 doses per day. First dose 1h pre workout, so that GH levels peak around 1 hours after after the workout ends. Second half of the dose injected prior to bedtime. You don't want insulin and GH to peak at the same time. Instead, you want to use Insulin prior to GH in order to prime your body for IGF1 production. So I would use (short acting) insulin pre/intra workout along with EAAs, dextrose/cyclic dextrin, glutamine, creatine, etc.

Keep in mind that GH makes you massively insulin resistant while it peaks in the blood. So the insulin will have a very hard time pushing in all those nutrients in the presence of GH. Hence, insulin+carbs first, followed by GH. If you don't use any insulin and intra-workout carbs, then you can inject the GH 2-3 hours prior to working out. The nightly GH dose is important for several reasons, most notably brain health and anti-catabolism. GH in the morning makes no sense, by the time it peaks (3.5 hours) you already ate and are no longer catabolic.
What if non training day ?

I take mine 1/2 dose upon wake up and stay fasted for 3 hours , second 1/2 dose before bedtime

AM shot is IM , PM shot is subq

Been doin it like this for years , never used slin

Respect
 

pimpman

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I've done a ton of gh but never insulin. I've always wanted to try it with insulin but despite the many research I've done on it I'm still not sure how to use it.as far as amount and when to eat carbs .unless someone can break it down to me in dummy term I guess
 

cracker backer

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Not inclined to look up all the references again (especially with the search function still broken), but here is how I do it:

Split GH into 2 doses per day. First dose 1h pre workout, so that GH levels peak around 1 hours after after the workout ends. Second half of the dose injected prior to bedtime. You don't want insulin and GH to peak at the same time. Instead, you want to use Insulin prior to GH in order to prime your body for IGF1 production. So I would use (short acting) insulin pre/intra workout along with EAAs, dextrose/cyclic dextrin, glutamine, creatine, etc.

Keep in mind that GH makes you massively insulin resistant while it peaks in the blood. So the insulin will have a very hard time pushing in all those nutrients in the presence of GH. Hence, insulin+carbs first, followed by GH. If you don't use any insulin and intra-workout carbs, then you can inject the GH 2-3 hours prior to working out. The nightly GH dose is important for several reasons, most notably brain health and anti-catabolism. GH in the morning makes no sense, by the time it peaks (3.5 hours) you already ate and are no longer catabolic.
I’m missing something here? Says 1st to do GH 1 hour pre workout.

But then says the insulin and/or carbs should come before taking GH? So with that in mind, if you do carbs during workout then it would seem the advice would be to do the GH post workout?

Then says if you don’t take insulin or carbs with workout to take GH 2-3 hours pre workout (as opposed to the original recommendation of 1 hour post workout?)

I’ve always done GH 1 hour pre workout, then have carbs/EAA shake intra. The GH again pre bed. Always wondered if this was indeed the most optimal way, so I’m open to different ideas. Just wasn’t sure what the actual recommendation was here, was hoping for some clarification?
 

MyNameIsJeff

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I’m missing something here? Says 1st to do GH 1 hour pre workout.

But then says the insulin and/or carbs should come before taking GH? So with that in mind, if you do carbs during workout then it would seem the advice would be to do the GH post workout?
I should have been more clear there. I'm talking about timing the peaks. You want to make sure the the insulin peak comes before the GH peak, i.e. most of the insulin action is complete before most of the GH action comes in and interrupts the insulin action. So if you take GH 1h pre workout and train for 90 minutes, then blood levels of GH will peak 1h post workout (i.e. ~3.5h post injection). Fast acting insulin peaks somewhere around 1h post injection. So if you take it right before the workout, then it's gonna peak 1.5 hours before the GH so that it can act optimally without the antagonistic action of GH. With intra-workout injection, the peaks get a bit closer, but still OK. What's important is that you flood the muscles with nutrients (supported by exogenous insulin), before basically shutting down your muscles to insulin by having extremely high GH and FFA levels.

If you inject the GH post workout, then it's gonna take another 3-4 hours before it fully kicks in. But you want the GH blood levels to be high as close to the end of the workout as possible, without interfering with intra-workout glucose and AA feeding.

Then says if you don’t take insulin or carbs with workout to take GH 2-3 hours pre workout (as opposed to the original recommendation of 1 hour post workout?)
Both GH and Insulin are anti-catabolic and will limit muscle protein breakdown during exercise. If there's no insulin around (either endogenous or exogenous), then having high GH levels during the workout would be beneficial.

In the end, whether you take GH pre or post workout is not gonna make a huge difference in terms of results. But why not try to optimize it to squeeze just a tiny bit more out of the GH.
 

Stewie

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Mountaindog1 (a few years ago) has expressed his non-concerns about dosing GH with carbs.
 

MyNameIsJeff

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The time and dose dependency of the effects of a 30-min long iv infusion of human growth hormone (GH) on glucose tolerance and glucose-stimulated insulin release was investigated in 19 healthy subjects. Glucose tolerance deteriorated immediately following GH, and the k-value continued to decrease up to 300 min later. A small but significant reduction of glucose tolerance persisted 24 h after GH administration. Significant deterioration of glucose tolerance was observed with the smallest GH dose used (5 mug per kg body weight), increasing the amount of the hormone having no further major influence. Glucose-stimulated insulin release was significantly inhibited 1 h after administration of a relatively high GH dose (40 mug per kg), both if expressed as mean plasma insulin levels, or as insulin release per magnitude of glucose stimulation (insulinogenic index). In the majority of subjects, insulin release was inhibited also by lower GH doses (5-20 mug GH per kg). However, the mean change with these doses was not statistically significant. The inhibitory effect of GH on insulin secretion seemed to have a duration of several hours. Five hours, but not 24 h, after GH administration (10 mug GH per kg) insulin release was still significantly suppressed. It is suggested that the initial effect of GH on pancreatic beta cells may be inhibition of insulin release, in contrast with the enhancement of insulin secretion observed during chronic administration of GH.

GH stimulates lipolysis via activation of the hormone-sensitive lipase, primarily in the visceral adipose tissue, which results in free fatty acid (FFA) flux from adipose tissue to circulation [1]. Previous studies have shown that increased FFA in circulation can induce insulin resistance by inhibition of insulin receptor substrate-1 (IRS-1) activity and subsequent failure of PI3K activation in the skeletal muscle and liver [1]. Meanwhile, increase in FFA uptake by hepatocytes result in promotion of hepatic lipid oxidation and accumulation of acetyl Coenzyme A (Acetyl-CoA). Acetyl-CoA stimulates two key enzymes for gluconeogenesis (pyruvate carboxylase and phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase) and an enzyme liberates glucose-6-phosphate as glucose from the liver and kidney into circulation (glucose-6-phosphatase), resulting in an increase of blood glucose levels [9].

In contrast to the GH effects on adipose tissue, GH promotes cellular uptake of FFA in skeletal muscle by increasing the activity of lipoprotein lipase [10]. The re-esterification of triglycerides from FFA results in the accumulation of lipid intermediates such as diacylglycerol and ceramides in skeletal muscle [11]. Previous studies have revealed that diacylglycerol and ceramide impede insulin signaling pathways. Diacylglycerol activates protein kinase C theta, which inhibit IRS-1 through serine phosphorylation, and ceramide inhibits Akt/protein kinase B, an important mediator of the insulin signaling pathway [11]. As in the adipose tissue, up-regulation of the p85 regulatory subunit in skeletal muscle by GH was involved in insulin resistance in mice with excess GH production [12].

[...]

GH therapy antagonizes insulin's action on peripheral tissues, such as the skeletal muscle, liver, and adipose tissue, thereby increases glucose production from the skeletal muscle and liver and decreases glucose uptake from adipose tissue. Insulin production is increased to compensate the increased circulating glucose after GH administration. GH-induced lipolysis in the visceral adipose tissue and subsequent increased circulating FFA also interferes with insulin signaling pathways, and chronic exposure to high FFA may exert direct toxicity in beta-cells. Meanwhile, IGF-1 has insulin-mimetic actions in the skeletal muscle and liver, and increased circulating IGF-1 after GH administration may have beneficial effects on glucose homeostasis and insulin resistance.
 

joos23

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You guys using 5 or 10g of creatine?
 

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