High Reps for Growth

TooPowerful4u · Oct 25, 2004

Now the standard i had thought to be was 6-8 reps and lifting heaviest poundage possible to increase strength hence increasing muscle mass at the fastest rate. If you go higher reps you cant lift as much weight and wont hit the muscle as heavy as possible. Now im starting to believe thats all out the window. Every experienced bodybuilder (approx 7 iv talked to on the subject) iv talked to in the past few months have advocated higher reps for growth and i dont mean 12 reps. In my experience with this, as iv only done it with legs for sufficient amount of time to see a difference, iv been doing 20-50 reps for legs destroying them and theyv never grown like this before in my life. I dont use light weight understand, lighter then i would with less reps obviously, but im FIGHTING for the goal i set be it 20 reps or 50. Iv recently started doing this for chest and i can honestly say my chest has never looked so full and i hope it continues.

Do you all think it could just be a change of training methods and reps thats responsible for my results (beucase im accustomed to doing 6-8 reps for a loongg time), or could it just be that overall higher reps are better for growth? At the moment my thinking is bouncing back and forth between the 2 extremes would be best, but im no expert here and i dont got the experience to back it so what do you think?

wedge · Oct 25, 2004

High reps are great

You bet high reps are good but I do them 2x per year ( 6 weeks on and back to 6 - 8 reps. I used to even go as high as 100 reps. Very intense and the hardness you gain is fantastic. Again, we all respond differently to workout routines but most people who try this will find it rough but very rewarding.

wedge

LATS · Oct 25, 2004

yeah right in that many of the top guys use higher reps.. by higher i mean 12-20 reps.. some of the pros will use this for various reasons.. one is that they are worried about injury and since many try and eekk out a living at this sport, they can not afford to go heavy all the time and risk being injuried and therefore out of work.. the other reason is that muscle growth is some what determined by time under tension.. too little time under tension does not elicite the type of growth response most are hunting for.. it will give better strength gains but, again injury is a concern.. the higher reps , if done in a controlled manner, gives a longer time under tension and reduces the risk of injury.. higher reps also can elicite various chemical processes in the muscles that lower reps can not do.. but , again, many pros choose to do a higher rep count.. not over 20 in most incidents.. some recommend that legs can go over 30-50.. i think that is silly.. how much overload can be obtained by that high a rep range.. 10-20 is what most consider high..

JETHRO TULL · Oct 25, 2004

LATS.......

THE INJURY THING IS ON MY MIND QUITE A BIT. I KNOW YOU'VE MET AND SEEN QUITE A FEW PROS TRAIN. WHAT, ACCORDING TO YOUR OBSERVATION, DO THE MAJORITY OF PROS USE? HIGH REPS OR LOW REPS?

THANKS MAN!

LATS · Oct 25, 2004

WELL, THE PROS I HAVE SEEN TRAIN ALL USE HEAVY WEIGHTS FOR HIGH REPS.. MAKE ANY SENSE? basically they go as heavy as possible for a higher rep range.. usually over 10 and ending at around 15 or a little more.. ronnie even does high reps unless he showing off for the video camera.. i do belive that everyone needs a base/ years of heavy weights to get that strength they need.. when cormier says that he does 10 reps on the incline press he is using 405 or more.. so one still must strive to handle high weight for those reps.. overload is still the key.. even dc once stated that whether it is 12 reps or 5 all that matter is that it is all you can handle..tom prince stated recently that he would have been smart to up his reps through out his career since he now has bad joint problems.. dr douglas crist, a expert on hormonal response during exercise has always stated that he felt that low rep ranges were to hard on the connective tissue and that the lower reps strain the cns too much to train more often.. as more and more "experts" and "phd" state that frrquent stimulation is the key.. so higher reps allow this better than lower reps.. dc even recommends doing the higher reps for the initial start of rest pause.. but, he will have to talk about that.. gundill even wrote a article in ironman that talked about this topic.. in essense, it states that higher reps allow for more frequent stimulation which is essential to get the most out of your anabolic use.. since gundill comes here sometimes maybe he can elaborate.. a dr adams ,a profesor of exercise phys at univ of arkansas has also stated the same that heavy loads tax the cns without adequetely straining the muscle tissue.. we do not have to agree with them 100% but they do bring up interesting ideas..i have alsways trained under 10 reps and mainly around 5-7.. i made good gains doing this but, my shoulders are killing and my wrists and my knees ect ect.. again, not stating that it is the holy grail of all science but, the pros and top national level guys use a higher rep range.. not all.. but one heck of a lot..

JETHRO TULL · Oct 25, 2004

LATS....GOOD INFO BROTHER!

MY KNEES, WRIST, HIPS, GET DINGED UP NOW AND AGAIN AS WELL...SHOULDERS GET TENDER IF I SCREW UP AND GO HEAVY ALL THE TIME. I AM GLAD I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE.

rAJJIN · Oct 25, 2004

Hmmm

Good info Lats

Thanks for the inside scoop! Everything you said makes sence to me.
If you think about it just for a second.. Of course a 1RM is not possably going to build more muscle then the heaviest weight you can handle for
a good 10-12 Reps. Now 50reps Lol, thats crazy.. more like toning then or
get that millitary muscles aka pushup muscle look But not the best imo for building mass.

ELIMINATOR · Oct 25, 2004

Its good to mix things up. I think TooPowerful4u had good results w/higher reps because his body needed a change. Change is good in bbing.

bigheinz · Oct 25, 2004

Yes you are shore...you are destroying them, you can get so full for the moment but your body is unable to recuperate and you are inmediatly overtrained.

I agree with Lats, some top amateurs and pros use high reps but only 15 to 20 hevy reps.

Maybe one or to times you can do it in a month to change but not go so high frequently.

The better way to grow is to go as heavy as possible and low reps 3 to 6-8 reps, HIT is the better way to improve changes constantly.

Vander_V · Oct 25, 2004

bigheinz said:
Yes you are shore...you are destroying them, you can get so full for the moment but your body is unable to recuperate and you are inmediatly overtrained.

I agree with Lats, some top amateurs and pros use high reps but only 15 to 20 hevy reps.

Maybe one or to times you can do it in a month to change but not go so high frequently.

The better way to grow is to go as heavy as possible and low reps 3 to 6-8 reps, HIT is the better way to improve changes constantly.

well lee preist spent 6 months of 50 - 100 reps on leg press last year and he said his legs grew and it worked very well , and i did not hear this from FLEX mag infact my friend had trained with him.

i usually do about 15-20 reps though like Big Heinz said , some days ill crank out 50 reps on leg press only , squats are always around 6-10 , leg extensions i do the first sets up to 40 reps then 2 sets of 12 heavy this i feel works by far the best, when it comes to lundges i will do super heavy lundges one day for a total of only 12 steps then the next time ill do 24 steps with lighter weight always changing it up.

MikeS · Oct 25, 2004

Mix it up! But do your heavy stuff first. Its a FACT that Type II muscle fiber
is most responsive to growth. And these muscle fibers grow by doing 6-8 reps in general. Ever seen a huge marathon runner? Thats because they use the Type I muscle fibers that dont respond weel to growth, activated by hig reps and endurance work. But here is the catch-they Do grow to some degree. So to achieve maximum growth do low reps first, when you have the most energy, because they respond to growth much better (proven fact); then do your rep work 12-20 reps for that muscle group.

MR.BICEPS · Oct 25, 2004

Fredrick Hatfield wrote a book on this very issue years ago claiming it took both low reps to build the fast twitch muscle fibers and high reps to build up slow twitch fibers and mitochondria"capillaries"...

I used to train with low reps and high reps all in one training session and it worked well. 15 to 25 reps are needed for higher reps and the fast twitch do well with 4 to 8 reps.

All I can say is it works well....

Adrenaline Rush · Oct 25, 2004

i think you hit the nail on the head mr. biceps, all muscle fibers must be trained, if your body is predominantly fast or slow twitch fibers, and you dont train them, then you are limiting yourself...

Leviathan · Oct 26, 2004

Recently...

I started using high reps too, around 12-20 per set after beating my joints and CNS all to hell from using heavy weights in the 4-6 range for the last few years, and I have to say I like the switch. My joints feel great now, I get incredible pumps, and I use waaaaaay less sets than I ever did in the past. I wondered if all this "if I lighten up will I loss mass" thing would happen to me, and it never has. I look at it this way: If you take someone who can curl 65lbs 15-20 times and over the course of a few years this person works up to a 115 lbs for 15-20 reps, then they will gain mass. Simple and to the point, just as long as you are using a decent weight that causes enough tension in the muscle to actually break down the fibers, then you will get the job done. Here's a good place to start: take your 5 rep max in any movements and multiply it by 80% and that is a good starting spot for the higher reps: 115 lbs curl by 80% = 92 lbs. So start with 90 or so, hit as many reps as you can, rest a full 2-3 minutes, and do it again, or you can do what I do and just drop the weight for the next set by about 10lbs or so and keep your reps the same.

Dad · Oct 26, 2004

It seems...

It seems that if you look at training at its most basic level, what you progress from is the process of adapting to an unfamiliar stress.
Now, what is an unfamiliar stress?
Well, if you've been doing sets of, say, 3-5 reps, and then you switch to sets of, say, 12-20, that will, until you adapt, be an unfamiliar stress.
One can also vary the number of sets, the rest between sets, the number of days a week/month/year one trains, the exercises you chose, and the order of exercises, just to name a few variables.

So whether you train volume, HIT, power, or whatever (and certainly people have attained equivalent results with many different approaches), as long as you're subjecting your muscles to a stres they are unfamiliar with, a stress they must adapt to, you'll make progress.

An interesting book on this subject of adaptation in The Stress of Life by Hans Selye.

Entity · Oct 26, 2004

As someone mentioed above, its really all about time under tension and thus the energy systems that your body uses.
From 0-10 seconds (1~6 reps) your body works via the phosphogen system utilizing the enzymes myokinase and creatine kinase for anearobic subsrtate level phosphorylation. This primarily occurs in the Type 2B Fast-Twitch fibers which have the most potential for growth but becouse of the very low volume 1-5 reps doesnt stimulate them enough to grow to the proportions bodybuilders seek, hence the 180lb powerlifter bench pressing 500+ lbs.
When the phosphogen system is exhaused, the muscle switches to anearobic fermentation. This happends at 10-40 seconds of work (approx. 6~20 reps) when the muscles start to utilize muscle glycogen converting it lactic acid hence the burning sensation that accompanies high rep training. The Type 2A Intermediate fibers primarily work during this period and becouse of the higher volume, greater stimulation the muscle, and the type of fiber being stimulated, high rep training results in greater muscle growth.... it no wonder that bodybuilders have always chased the burn and the pump.

TooPowerful4u · Oct 26, 2004

I love when i get info like this, thats why this is my home. Iv learned more here in 2yrs than i have in all my years of high school lol.

OK i understand the whole idea of adaptation to an unfamiliar stress and it makes total sense. I guess i wasnt using enough variation in my workouts and training, which i definatly will in the future as iv experienced a big change by changing my rep range as of late.

As for the TUT principals im not sure i fully follow. You state that 1-5reps/0-10seconds is not sufficient enough to stimulate Type 2B Fast-Twitch fibers (greatest potential for growth, thus the ones we wanna hit most) to the proportions bodybuilders seek. Then you state at 6-20reps/10-40seconds you cross the anaerobic threshhold and type 2A intermediate fibers kick in and are primarily activated.

If 5 reps or 10 seconds isnt sufficient enough to stimulate Type 2B fibers, and we cross the anaerobic threshhold after that time period changing fiber type stimulation, and those are the ones we wanna hit most, how DO we sufficiently stimulate those fibers? Maybe im missing something. Could u include maybe a little example for me? thanx

Also if i do 5 reps it always overshoots a 10 second window since my rep tempo is something like a 2-3 second negative and a 1-2 second positive. Is there an ideal rep tempo? Iv seen a lot of pro training videos and all of their rep tempos are like a controlled bounce moving the weight as fast as possible while still controlled. Lee Priest is the only one iv seen use slow reps or even squeeze anything for a peak contraction.

If anyone can provide more info on rep tempo for maximum muscle stimulation id like to hear more on that also. THANX

mike man · Oct 26, 2004

TooPowerful4u

You have to remember though, how often are you training your muscles per week.
As in, how much recuperation time do you give them after training these high rep sessions?
Also what are your set schemes per muscle group?

Entity · Oct 26, 2004

I realize my post was kinda scrambled so youre a little off but here's the breakdown:
First let me summerize the muscle fiber types:

Type 1 (aka: slow oxidative, slow-twitch, red fibers): These have abundant mitochoindria, myoblobin, and high capillary perforation and thus are adapted for aerobic respiration, therefore they fatigue far less easily. These are the types of muscles primarily worked by marathon runners or when doing any type cardio exercise as well as everyday activities. They are numerous in the calve muscles as well as the torso (figues since use those muscles continously).

Type 2b (aka: fast glycolytic [FG], fast-twitch, white fibers): These anaerobic fibers are adapted for quick powerful responses but are not fatigue resistent. Instead they work exclusively from the phosphogen system and are abundant in the enzymes myokinase and creatine kinase which borrow inorganic phosphate molecules from ADP and creatine phosphate respectively. Their quick and forceful contrations are due to thier ability to reabsord calcium ions from the sarcoplasmic reticulum (where calcium is stored). They have the most potential for growth and of course strength and utilize the phosphogen system which typically lasts up to 10 seconds of activity.

Type 2a (aka: fast oxidative glycolytic [FOG], intermediate fibers): These are not so much another type of muscle fiber as they are an extention of the ones above. They are exactly the same as the Type 2b but have more mitochondria then the Type 2b fibers but fewer then the Type 1 so they exhibit the properties of both. When high intensity activity lasts for longer than 10 seconds they kick in with anearobic fermentation to keep you moving while keeping the same level of intensity however, since they use muscle glycogen whose product is lactic acid which is toxic to the muscle, prolonged use will cause lactic acid build up and shut the muscle down. This typically happends after about 40 seconds of use (depending on the indevidual and thier conditioning level of course).

Just to recap in terms of time:

0-10 seconds- Fast Glycolytic (Type 2B) Fibers

10-40 seconds- Fast Oxidative Glycolytic (Type 2a) Fibers

40 sec - up to several hours or more- Slow Oxidative (Type 1) Fibers

*keep in mind that these processes are not mutually exlusive, meaning that they are not descrete evens rather they overlap as part of a continum starting with FG and ending with FO.

Basically the probem is such:
You want to stimulate the FG Type 2b fibers as much as possible since they have the most potential for growth but in order to do so you must work for only 10 seconds of less, it just happends that in order to work for under 10 sec AND keep the intensity high you need to use heavy weight (I say this to illustrate that its not the weight or # of reps that makes the difference but the time youre working).
Anyway, even if your using max poundage for 10 seconds maybe 6 reps at the most its still not enough stimulus to fatigue and therefore hit every single FG fiber there (although by emphasizing speed you can recruit quite a few).
So the best you can do is use less weight and do more reps that way youre still hitting white (Type 2) fibers but this time they're the Type 2a ones which is pretty much the same thing.
Bottom line: High rep training works!

TooPowerful4U,
To answer your question about tempo, I say lift as fast as humanly possibly ALWAYS, if its an exercise where doing so is dangerous then give it alot of 'drive'. That way you are recuiting as many motor unit and thus FG and FOG muscle fibers possible. This is why powerlifters do alot of speed work and why heavy training is hard on the CNS.
On the negatives give it 2-3 seconds since an eccentric contraction is far more damaging to the muscle tissue then a positive one so it's be wise to make good use of it.
As I mentioned above, the number of reps doesnt matter. If 6 reps takes you 25 seconds then your hitting the FOG fibers if it takes you 10 seocnds your working the FG fibers (in reality your always using a ratio of both depending on the particular conditions during that set). The reason you DONT want 6 reps to take 25 seconds is becouse the concentric lifts would have to be slow and for the reasons outlines above you want to lift fast.

I hope this helped and that I didnt confuse everyone beyond return.