How common is DNP use?

[swim15]

that's the first time I've EVER heard that and I think you may be misunderstanding something.... DNP is used by advanced coaches before insulin runs or long term GH use to help resensitize the insulin receptor.... i have worked with a few top coaches and am currently with one of the most respected in the feild and in order to resensitize the Androgen/steroid receptors I come off all AAS for 12 weeks each year to clean out the receptors... no TRT dose test...nothing androgenic at all... the lower your testosterone levels are and as long as you are not getting it from an exogenous source, the more sensitive the receptor will become in order to make the most of what little testosterone there is.... after being in that state for an extended period of time, you will then respond much better to any outside source it recieves.... there are not a lot of studies on this so I tried to explain the theory here....
Coaches and athletes have searched long and hard for years to find another way of resetting the androgen receptors and most are very experienced with DNP going back to its first introduction to bodybuilders back when the late Dan Duchaine introduced it to bodybuilding about 20 years ago...
my guess is you are mistaking the insulin receptor and androgen receptors theories... I just added low dose Humalin R in yesterday in a planned 4 week run after 10 days of low dose DNP (200mg per day) and I'm responding to a low 6 iu dose preworkout like 12 iu would normally hit me... I did this bc I have been on Serostim for over 14 months and it had effected my glucose numbers.... After the 10 days my fasted blood sugar levels are back to normal.
If this works in resetting the androgen receptors in the muscle then this is groundbreaking info... I haven't felt it the way I do when I go off gear though..

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You do realize that there isn't such a thing as resetting or cleaning out androgen receptors and that they upregulate with ASS use, right...

 

[DK0223]

You do realize that there isn't such a thing as resetting or cleaning out androgen receptors and that they upregulate with ASS use, right...

And you are....?

 

[little slice]

You do realize that there isn't such a thing as resetting or cleaning out androgen receptors and that they upregulate with ASS use, right...

there's a lot about the androgen receptor that we still don't know..



upregulation vs downregulation in this area is not completely understood

 

[Detroit Muscle]

You do realize that there isn't such a thing as resetting or cleaning out androgen receptors and that they upregulate with ASS use, right...

you state a theory as a fact... I guess every top coach I know must be an idiot for coming up with something that has proven to personally be effective to me... There is a lot to be PROVEN about the androgen receptor as slice said and also the verbiage that is used to describe the action of making the AR more sensitive to AAS.... That is what the goal is, so you do not feel that the AR becomes more sensitive to the effect of testosterone by going off all AAS, no TRT, completely off for an extended period of time.... that is the process being termed "resetting and cleaning out" the receptor in case you aren't familiar with how bodybuilders in general speak..... you do not think this happens?

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[swim15]

you state a theory as a fact... I guess every top coach I know must be an idiot for coming up with something that has proven to personally be effective to me... There is a lot to be PROVEN about the androgen receptor as slice said and also the verbiage that is used to describe the action of making the AR more sensitive to AAS.... That is what the goal is, so you do not feel that the AR becomes more sensitive to the effect of testosterone by going off all AAS, no TRT, completely off for an extended period of time.... that is the process being termed "resetting and cleaning out" the receptor in case you aren't familiar with how bodybuilders in general speak..... you do not think this happens?

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Absolutely not. When you come off you aren't going to be able to maintain the level of hardness/conditioning/glycogen/strength or some combination of those (obviously) that super physiological levels of androgens will allow you to. So then people get back on and start making awesome gains again and think it's because they cleaned out receptors or something when all it did was bring down the baseline that they were able to maintain.

I think there are much better ways of changing, bridging, and tapering doses in combination with diet and caloric expenditure changes to break plateaus and keep pushing results in strength or LBM or a combo of both.

 

[janoshik]

In the circles where I come from the use of DNP is crazy high.

It is rarely used responsibly in those circles.


I do, however, believe DNP to be much safer than, for example Clenbuterol or even Caffeine, if we are talking sides/effectiveness.

A dose of DNP that's literally sides free for most will have the same effect on raising ones metabolism as coma-inducing amounts of caffeine/clenbuterol would. [While keeping possibility of PN in mind, but I don't recall any cases of PN acquired at low dosages]


The biggest danger of DNP are uneducated users.
There was also an unnamed UK vendor famous for providing overdosed products, which posed risk mostly for experienced users, who had already determined their dose. Contamination by heavy metals in raw DNP powder was not rare either.

 

[Ashop]

There is a big demand for DNP. Women, men of all walks of life all use it. Housewives, fitness competitors,bodybuilders, other athletes. Its a very effective weight loss drug. Too bad its such a dangerous item and should ONLY be used by those very experienced.

 

[VinnyG]

You do realize that there isn't such a thing as resetting or cleaning out androgen receptors and that they upregulate with ASS use, right...

upregulate in number, downregulate in sensitivity

so six for half a dozen

 

[janoshik]

upregulate in number, downregulate in sensitivity

so six for half a dozen

I don't really know too much about the issue of down and upregulation of androgen receptors (and in the discussions I've had even the research professionals seemed to fail to reach the consensus on the issue), but I'm pretty sure the sensitivity of receptors can't really change, considering how they work (and that I know really well).

There are 'diminishing returns,' but I wouldn't call that changing sensitivity.

Just my .02

- jano

 

[Detroit Muscle]

Absolutely not. When you come off you aren't going to be able to maintain the level of hardness/conditioning/glycogen/strength or some combination of those (obviously) that super physiological levels of androgens will allow you to. So then people get back on and start making awesome gains again and think it's because they cleaned out receptors or something when all it did was bring down the baseline that they were able to maintain.

I think there are much better ways of changing, bridging, and tapering doses in combination with diet and caloric expenditure changes to break plateaus and keep pushing results in strength or LBM or a combo of both.

wow, well I should have hired you and had you help me make these gains instead if listening to Victor Munez, Hany Rambod, Chris Aceto, and Dave Palumbo... as they all firmly encourage me to take 12 weeks off every year and they explain the science of how AR sensitivity increase happens much better than your THEORY on how it doesnt happen... yet, you state them as fact like there is no other option which is just rediculous... I'll be the first to say that we can all still learn more with an open mind, especially on topic with unproven data and theories like this topic on the androgen receptor...
I'm not saying I'm right or wrong... I'm explaining why I did what I did and how it has helped me make better gains while staying healthier than staying on all year.... and this is based off of my experience comparing the 2 different methods and how it's helped me become one of the top 10 amateur heavyweight bodybuilders in the United States....
Also, thanks for contributing so much on the actual topic of this thread instead of just making a random non related post and taking this in a whole different direction with statement that are not factual or proven... oh wait...you didn't do that did you.... this is like debating religion...freaking pointless.

and if you think that I could have gained more muscle using your methods than the over 30 lbs of lean muscle I have gained this offseason then we all should just stop and only read your posts oh great guru.....oh where have you been my whole career? who are you again?

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[Detroit Muscle]

anyone who wants to really educate themselves on the topic of resensitizing the AR should see Dave Palumbo's most recent "Iron Rage" show currently up at Rxmuscle.com in the Rx TV section... it explains the advantages and benefits of an off cycle compared to cruising, bridging, ect that swim says is the way to go... this is a free chance to listen to 2 of the great minds of bodybuilding on the topic swim chose to make such a hissy fit about.

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[swim15]

anyone who wants to really educate themselves on the topic of resensitizing the AR should see Dave Palumbo's most recent "Iron Rage" show currently up at Rxmuscle.com in the Rx TV section... it explains the advantages and benefits of an off cycle compared to cruising, bridging, ect that swim says is the way to go... this is a free chance to listen to 2 of the great minds of bodybuilding on the topic swim chose to make such a hissy fit about.

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Didn't throw a hissy fit man I'm stating what I have gathered from reading, and talking to docs and coaches as well. Take it or leave it I don't care this is a forum for discussions, I wasn't the one talking down to people. If we wanted to dick measure then I'd bring in real world careers and not bodybuilding because ultimately it really won't get anyone far besides the top few in the world.

As far as the topic of DNP, OP, it's been my experience that it's fairly common. Not like T3 use or anything but it's another tool in the arsenal. Unfortunately too many people that are very uneducated on the compound use it as well.

 

[Detroit Muscle]

Didn't throw a hissy fit man I'm stating what I have gathered from reading, and talking to docs and coaches as well. Take it or leave it I don't care this is a forum for discussions, I wasn't the one talking down to people. If we wanted to dick measure then I'd bring in real world careers and not bodybuilding because ultimately it really won't get anyone far besides the top few in the world.

As far as the topic of DNP, OP, it's been my experience that it's fairly common. Not like T3 use or anything but it's another tool in the arsenal. Unfortunately too many people that are very uneducated on the compound use it as well.

yeah you did bro... you called bullshit and threw your OPINION around like it was fact and the only way, its there in black and white... I never talk down to people anywhere, read my freaking posts... I get so much thanks and gratitude from members here it's overwhelming...I addressed this topic by saying and I quote...you may be misunderstanding and getting the AR theory confused with the insulin receptor use of DNP... and it was on topic...
real world accomplishments and dick meassuring as you state...again, you have no idea what I have done and the life I provide for my loved ones or my success in the private sector so whatever bro... I just happen to also be a good competitive bodybuilder and have also found great financial success competing though various sponsorship contacts... I may be a pro in November, I may not... but to say this sport only brings the top few success shows your knowledge on the subject... I rarely get like this on here but you are offensive and directly called me out in your single post on me... leave it alone bro

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[swim15]

yeah you did bro... you called bullshit and threw your OPINION around like it was fact and the only way, its there in black and white... I never talk down to people anywhere, read my freaking posts... I get so much thanks and gratitude from members here it's overwhelming...I addressed this topic by saying and I quote...you may be misunderstanding and getting the AR theory confused with the insulin receptor use of DNP... and it was on topic...
real world accomplishments and dick meassuring as you state...again, you have no idea what I have done and the life I provide for my loved ones or my success in the private sector so whatever bro... I just happen to also be a good competitive bodybuilder and have also found great financial success competing though various sponsorship contacts... I may be a pro in November, I may not... but to say this sport only brings the top few success shows your knowledge on the subject... I rarely get like this on here but you are offensive and directly called me out in your single post on me... leave it alone bro

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Hey man, you know best so whatever you say

 

[Detroit Muscle]

Hey man, you know best so whatever you say

no apparently you do by how you started this whole thing

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[VinnyG]

I don't really know too much about the issue of down and upregulation of androgen receptors (and in the discussions I've had even the research professionals seemed to fail to reach the consensus on the issue), but I'm pretty sure the sensitivity of receptors can't really change, considering how they work (and that I know really well).

There are 'diminishing returns,' but I wouldn't call that changing sensitivity.

Just my .02

- jano

Hey Jano how you're going bro? I didn't forget about those samples we talked last week haha in a couple days I'll hit you back with the btc

You're right, there's no consensus on this topic and most bro-theories on the forums are pure anecdotal, I'll just leave a quote from my favorite book here to keep the discussion going

Cheers

The problem is, the receptor concentration is unknown and is not steady. It can change in response to several stimuli. It is a common belief among AAS users that the androgen receptor concentration increases in response to stimulation by androgens. The fact is standard pharmacological theory dictates that continued stimulation of receptors results in desensitization or downregulation of receptors. The scientific literature is split, with some studies showing upregulation of androgen receptor quantity and others showing downregulation of receptor quantity(61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68). In my experience, it seems much more logical that receptors desensitize or downregulate in response to stimulation. Therefore, if you start out with a certain concentration of a steroid, as time goes on, this concentration will become less effective as the number of androgen receptors decreases, This is, in fact, what we see in practical use of androgens. Users, at one time, used a pyramid scheme of
steadily increasing doses to help combat this effect. As the receptor density decreased, the concentration of androgen increased, keeping receptor activation at roughly the same level. For some reason, pyramiding fell out of favor with people opting for a scheme known as "frontloading".....

----
61. Antonio J, Wilson JD, George FW: Effects ofcastration and androgen treatment on androgen-receptor levels in rat
skeletal muscles. J Appl Physiol. Dee;87(6):2016-9, 1999

62. Alimirah F, Chen J, Xin H, Choubey D. Androgen receptor auto-regulates its expression by a negative leedbaek
loop through upregulation of IFI16 protein. FEBS Letl. 580(6): 1659-64,2006

63. Burnstein KL. Regulation of androgen receptor levels: implications for prostate cancer progression and therapy. J
Cell Bioehem. 95(4):657-69, 2005

64. Sinha-Hikim I, Taylor WE, Gonzalez-Cadavid NF. Zheng W, Bhasin S. Androgen receptor in human skeletal
muscle and euhured muscle satellite cells: up-regulation by androgen treatment. J Clin Endoerinol Metab. 89( 10):5245-
55,2004

65. Kumar VL, Majumder PK. Kumar V: Androgen deprivation causes up-regulation of androgen receptor lrdnscripl in
the rat prostate. Mol Ccil Bioehem. Jun; 171 (1-2): 133-8, t997

66. Kumar VL, Majumder PK, Kumar V: In vivo modulation of androgen receptor by androgens. Asian J Androl.
Sep;4(3):229-3I, 2002

67. Rance NE, Max SR: Modulation ofthe eytosolie androgen receptor in striated muscle by sex steroids.
Endocrinology. Sep; I 15(3):862-6, 1984

68. Rogozkin VA: Anabolic steroid metabolism in skeletal mosele. J Steroid Bioehem. Jul; tl( 1C):923-6, 1979

 

[Detroit Muscle]

Hey Jano how you're going bro? I didn't forget about those samples we talked last week haha in a couple days I'll hit you back with the btc

You're right, there's no consensus on this topic and most bro-theories on the forums are pure anecdotal, I'll just leave a quote from my favorite book here to keep the discussion going

Cheers


----
61. Antonio J, Wilson JD, George FW: Effects ofcastration and androgen treatment on androgen-receptor levels in rat
skeletal muscles. J Appl Physiol. Dee;87(6):2016-9, 1999

62. Alimirah F, Chen J, Xin H, Choubey D. Androgen receptor auto-regulates its expression by a negative leedbaek
loop through upregulation of IFI16 protein. FEBS Letl. 580(6): 1659-64,2006

63. Burnstein KL. Regulation of androgen receptor levels: implications for prostate cancer progression and therapy. J
Cell Bioehem. 95(4):657-69, 2005

64. Sinha-Hikim I, Taylor WE, Gonzalez-Cadavid NF. Zheng W, Bhasin S. Androgen receptor in human skeletal
muscle and euhured muscle satellite cells: up-regulation by androgen treatment. J Clin Endoerinol Metab. 89( 10):5245-
55,2004

65. Kumar VL, Majumder PK. Kumar V: Androgen deprivation causes up-regulation of androgen receptor lrdnscripl in
the rat prostate. Mol Ccil Bioehem. Jun; 171 (1-2): 133-8, t997

66. Kumar VL, Majumder PK, Kumar V: In vivo modulation of androgen receptor by androgens. Asian J Androl.
Sep;4(3):229-3I, 2002

67. Rance NE, Max SR: Modulation ofthe eytosolie androgen receptor in striated muscle by sex steroids.
Endocrinology. Sep; I 15(3):862-6, 1984

68. Rogozkin VA: Anabolic steroid metabolism in skeletal mosele. J Steroid Bioehem. Jul; tl( 1C):923-6, 1979

I think it's pretty logical that nearly every type of receptor will down regulate with continued stimulation.... look at opiate receptors and insulin receptors as examples and pretty much every drug has this effect in the body... over time, if the same stimulus is applied, the body adapts and a higher stimulus is needed for the same effect.... alcohal, cocaine, heroin, insulin, thyroid hormone and obviously testosterone and AAS.... otherwise we would all still be growing of our first cycle doses... I am open for debate on any topic but this seems pretty cut and dry to a logically thinking mind... anyone who has used steroids over the years can tell you that the drug doesn't get more effective with continued long term use at the same dose so how would you logically explain upregulation with continued use? Am I missing something?

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[VinnyG]

I think it's pretty logical that nearly every type of receptor will down regulate with continued stimulation.... look at opiate receptors and insulin receptors as examples and pretty much every drug has this effect in the body... over time, if the same stimulus is applied, the body adapts and a higher stimulus is needed for the same effect.... alcohal, cocaine, heroin, insulin, thyroid hormone and obviously testosterone and AAS.... otherwise we would all still be growing of our first cycle doses... I am open for debate on any topic but this seems pretty cut and dry to a logically thinking mind... anyone who has used steroids over the years can tell you that the drug doesn't get more effective with continued long term use at the same dose so how would you logically explain upregulation with continued use? Am I missing something?

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I know but there's a lot of people who still believe in that, no way you're making gains infinitely even on grams of gear with enough time you WILL stall

maybe they mistake fat/bloat with progress or keep spinning wheels between all out bulkings/cutting :action-s:



another article I found on google pointing some correlation between insulin and androgen receptor sensitivity:

https://www.anabolicmen.com/how-to-increase-androgen-receptors/

a few interesting references too

 

[Detroit Muscle]

DNP is the most powerful fat burner in history. However, we cannot consider the fat loss potential without recognizing the risks. DNP truly is poison, and it will claim lives. Granted, some will get away with use, this is simply the way many things work in life, but many will not. Even if you follow the guidelines about staying cool and keep your dose at a low to moderate level the risk is still there, you may die.

I would like to know if anyone know of ANY deaths at a very effective 400 mg per day dose for 14-21 days.... I highly doubt there is a single death and this is the most common cycle done using DNP... I doubt that on a low dose cycle of 200 mg per day like I just did that you will even see any side effects as long as you stay properly hydrated.
The dangers are with abuse and reckless dosing... just like with other drugs

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[janoshik]

Hey Jano how you're going bro? I didn't forget about those samples we talked last week haha in a couple days I'll hit you back with the btc

You're right, there's no consensus on this topic and most bro-theories on the forums are pure anecdotal, I'll just leave a quote from my favorite book here to keep the discussion going

Cheers

Hello! Doing well, business going well and so... Looking forward to hearing from you!


There's certainly a lack of controlled studies with large enough sample size on the topic and I don't think the conclusion can be reached without them.

Discussion here has many valid points though. Thanks for posting references!


Mr. Detroid Muscle:

What do you think about the possibility of blaming the diminishing returns for 'decreased' effectiveness of same AAS dose?

I mean, even if the number of receptors increased, people would experience something percieved as a decrease in effectiveness over time, as they already hold more muscle than they did before.

Mr. Adex:
I strongly disagree with you.
Dose makes the poison.

DNP is much safer at comparable effectiveness than pretty much any other cutting aid.

Deaths have never ocurred within reasonable dosage levels as far as I know.

Lowest recorded death was at 4.3mg/kg, however I had trouble finding out the original source, which I believe might point to some other comorbidities.

Generally the lowest lethal doses are reported to be over 14mg/kg, which would, for average man, mean ingesting well over a gram of DNP.

I personally know people, who I in no way claim are resposible, who had ingested over a gram of DNP for prolonged periods of time and are still alive and suffer no consequences (as of now, 2 years later).



- jano