I see both sides of the coin here
a)Whats the best way to build density and muscle mass that stays? Long term cycling--gaining mass and holding onto mass for lengthy time periods. The longer you can attain and hold onto a certain amount of muscle mass will also result in the greatest amount of muscle accumalation "that stays" (if and only if you have the endo test/hpta to help you KEEP muscle mass when you are off)
b)What is the key to holding onto muscle mass sans "help"? Having your hpta functioning at a normal to elite level. Whats the surefire way to turn into a scarecrow and losing gobs of muscle mass when you finally get off? Having such an impaired hpta that your body is producing zero to trace amounts of testosterone at that time. Most people do that by staying on so long their endo test is driven into a dormant state.
So whats the answer? If someone thinks that 2 weeks of hcg and clomid at the end of a 12-24 week cycle is going to somehow magically restore their hpta in 10 days so they can hold onto all that hard earned muscle mass, your living on a wing and a prayer. So you got 2 choices. Stay on or (more likely panic when the muscle starts falling off like dead skin and jump back on during the 3rd week of PCT and then convince yourself that you were "off" like a great majority of people do) or build PCT right into the cycle itself, sending signals at intermittent times every 4-8 weeks with antiestrogens and hcg (usually clom nolv hcg (and arim in some cases). If anyone reading this post thinks that their ON cycle bodyweight will lose 20lbs of muscle mass during that 10 days to 2 weeks of "signals sent" before going ON full bore again, your kidding yourself. Youll drop maybe 5lbs of water and youll be right back where you left off during the first 4-5 days of back ON. The lengths of being on are your choice--you can do this 2x or you can do it 5 times in a row or indefinitely--THATS YOUR CHOICE OF TIME ON--the key is intermittent signals to your hpta at short intervals (every 4-8 weeks)
I really dont like talking about this subject to be honest with you with todays climate, but I saw something mentioned above and i wanted my theory on this to be correct here, and I know that there will be comments below saying "well PCT doesnt work when your on"--I DISAGREE TOTALLY--Mainly because everyone in the last 45 years that has been doing PCT has had small amounts of hormones in their body (whether trapped in bodyfat, scar tissue, long hydrolyzing times, or long esters etc etc etc)
Here was my reply on another board and im just going to leave it at that and you can make your own conclusions about all this because this subject like I said makes me uncomfortable to even talk about.
"I dont agree that clomid, nolvadex, et all are rendered completely inert and useless if any iota of exogenous testosterone is in the system.
The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate.
Tenover JS, Matsumoto AM, Plymate SR, Bremner WJ.
Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.
Serum testosterone (T) levels in men decline with age while serum LH levels, as measured by RIA, increase. To assess if the decline in serum T levels in healthy aging men is paralleled by an age-related decline in the bioavailable non-sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG)-bound fraction of T and to determine whether there are age-related changes in LH secretion or LH control of T production, we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after 7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration. Both mean 24-h serum total T levels and non-SHBG-bound T were reduced in elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), while estradiol and SHBG levels were similar in the 2 age groups. Serum FSH determined by RIA and LH by RIA and bioassay were higher in the elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), but the ratios of LH bioactivity to immunoreactivity and the LH pulse frequency and amplitude were similar. After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively. However, CC-stimulated LH pulse characteristics and serum levels of estradiol, SHBG, FSH, and bioactive and immunoreactive LH were similar in the 2 groups. Thus, both at baseline and after CC stimulation, elderly men had significantly lower serum total T and non-SHBG-bound (bioavailable) T levels than did young men, despite similar or increased levels of bioactive LH and similar bioactive to immunoreactive LH ratios and LH pulse characteristics. These results suggest that major age-related changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis occur at the level of the testes and are manifested by decreased responsiveness to bioactive LH. Administration of CC to young and elderly men resulted in similar changes in LH pulse characteristics and LH bioactivity and immunoreactivity, suggesting preserved hypothalamic-pituitary responsiveness in the elderly.
If its working on a male with normal T levels at only 50mg a day whose to say someone with diminished endo test but 100mg of exog test in their system isnt seeing benefits?"
We know HCG works whether someone is on or off, and as far as nolv, tamox, and arim is concerned when a small amount of exog test is in the system .................Im just going to stop there or Im going to have to really go into all this
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