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Ideal Ratio Test:Primo for e2 estrogen estradiol management

warlock

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Did you have any negative symptoms? I’m thinking I would need to either drop primo or lower dose considerably when I go back to 10mg/day test cruise. Estrogen control is usually not necessary at that level but everybody changes as the years go on...

For the most part, I felt pretty good; however, I did notice a little decrease in sex drive compared to when my E2 is higher. I tend to feel amazing when E2 is higher. That's just me. It was interesting to see how, indeed, primobolan lowers estrogen. I wanted to see for myself and was able to pull labs before, during and after.

When on TRT, I don't use an anti-estrogen and feel great this way.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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For the most part, I felt pretty good; however, I did notice a little decrease in sex drive compared to when my E2 is higher. I tend to feel amazing when E2 is higher. That's just me. It was interesting to see how, indeed, primobolan lowers estrogen. I wanted to see for myself and was able to pull labs before, during and after.

When on TRT, I don't use an anti-estrogen and feel great this way.
I wonder if that’s why people say primo lowers their sex drive? I always found that odd since it’s a DHT based drug, you’d think it would raise drive...but if it’s tanking estrogen in some then it makes sense their sex drive would drop.

Either way like you say it just comes down to proving it for yourself no matter what some bros on a message board say, you’ll never believe it 100% until you have your bloodwork in hand.
 

warlock

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I wonder if that’s why people say primo lowers their sex drive? I always found that odd since it’s a DHT based drug, you’d think it would raise drive...but if it’s tanking estrogen in some then it makes sense their sex drive would drop.

Either way like you say it just comes down to proving it for yourself no matter what some bros on a message board say, you’ll never believe it 100% until you have your bloodwork in hand.

I think in my case, the dropping of E2 contributed to a drop in sex drive. Now, that's not to say sex drive was not good, it simply wasn't what it normally is when E2 is higher. My libido has always been crazy high. I did notice that side when on primo and thought it was probably E2 related. After I pull labs, it got confirmed that the E2 had dropped so, I believe this was the main cause for the lowered libido.

I agree nothing is better than proving things for yourself. I had used primo a few years back a few times, but back then I wouldn't do blood work often so I never even knew primo could lower E2. Then, in more recent times I heard a bunch of people state that, but you never know if this is 100% true or if you would get affected the same way. For me, it was fun to experiment and see for myself.
 

Type-IIx

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I wonder if that’s why people say primo lowers their sex drive? I always found that odd since it’s a DHT based drug, you’d think it would raise drive...but if it’s tanking estrogen in some then it makes sense their sex drive would drop.

Either way like you say it just comes down to proving it for yourself no matter what some bros on a message board say, you’ll never believe it 100% until you have your bloodwork in hand.
It's because the concept of a "DHT based" AAS is utter fiction. I don't know where this concept comes from, but it's taken firm root in the minds of every bodybuilder and touted as fact. Primo is a commercially available, non-aromatizatible, non-5α reducable testosterone derivative. There is a structural distinction between 19-nortestosterone/nandrolone and testosterone-based AAS, but what in the FUCK is this bad broscience that has people thinking primo is a DHT derivative? So, like Masteron, I believe its C-3 ketone group is reduced ("similar to DHT"), that makes it "a DHT?" It's a very simplistic and erroneous assumption to think that modification at that position makes primo affect libido or hair loss the way that DHT does. If anything, it just makes it a weak active ligand despite tight binding to the AR.
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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It's because the concept of a "DHT based" AAS is utter fiction. I don't know where this concept comes from, but it's taken firm root in the minds of every bodybuilder and touted as fact. Primo is a commercially available, non-aromatizatible, non-5α reducable testosterone derivative. There is a structural distinction between 19-nortestosterone/nandrolone and testosterone-based AAS, but what in the FUCK is this bad broscience that has people thinking primo is a DHT derivative? So, like Masteron, I believe its C-3 ketone group is reduced ("similar to DHT"), that makes it "a DHT?" It's a very simplistic and erroneous assumption to think that modification at that position makes primo affect libido or hair loss the way that DHT does. If anything, it just makes it a weak active ligand despite tight binding to the AR.
Lol I’ll take your word for it but you also did already contribute some useful information to the thread topic on page 1 so you’re cool in my book 👍
 

b-boy

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I can't believe you guys even think about this stuff? Wow! I just eat good, train hard and take Performance enhancing drugs, I don't even put much thought in the later (PED's)
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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I can't believe you guys even think about this stuff? Wow! I just eat good, train hard and take Performance enhancing drugs, I don't even put much thought in the later (PED's)
You can’t believe people think about their bloodwork and monitor that? You don’t even put much thought into it? Ok thanks bahahaha

Do you ever get bloodwork done on your cycles? Do you get bloodwork done at all (like on TRT?)
 

pickapeck

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It's because the concept of a "DHT based" AAS is utter fiction. I don't know where this concept comes from, but it's taken firm root in the minds of every bodybuilder and touted as fact. Primo is a commercially available, non-aromatizatible, non-5α reducable testosterone derivative. There is a structural distinction between 19-nortestosterone/nandrolone and testosterone-based AAS, but what in the FUCK is this bad broscience that has people thinking primo is a DHT derivative? So, like Masteron, I believe its C-3 ketone group is reduced ("similar to DHT"), that makes it "a DHT?" It's a very simplistic and erroneous assumption to think that modification at that position makes primo affect libido or hair loss the way that DHT does. If anything, it just makes it a weak active ligand despite tight binding to the AR.
Now that you've insulted 30% of the board you should explain how each oxidation state at each carbon atom and each added alkyl chain changes the character of each steroid. Forget the esters. stick to the base compound unless is is a 17 alpha alkylation. You can stay away from the 2.3 pyrazol rings too.
 

Type-IIx

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Testing, testing, can I reply? I was replying to Matsuo in such a way as to elicit a reaction b/c I wanted to be tested to think a bit deeper about this and come up with a better working model than "test, 19nos, DHTs, orals" tbh, but now I either cannot reply to Matsuo or cannot reply here.

Edit:
@pickapeck
What was insulting though? In all seriousness, the thinking folks (intellectual wankery, labcoats) should rally around the simple cause of breaking down this "DHT derivative" concept, and we might learn from each other in the process.

Now it's been a while since I thought of orgo chem, but can we stick to base compounds and work on a model that properly differentiates "for the masses" (which includes me, btw, I just want to go beyond BAD bro science) the classes of drugs?
 

Type-IIx

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I can't believe you guys even think about this stuff? Wow! I just eat good, train hard and take Performance enhancing drugs, I don't even put much thought in the later (PED's)
Very fair, you're a pragmatist. Some of us do appreciate how well the Performance enhancers work though and it's interesting to discuss differences/"the model"... how well they work shouldn't be undersold if being honest bro.
 

b-boy

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You can’t believe people think about their bloodwork and monitor that? You don’t even put much thought into it? Ok thanks bahahaha

Do you ever get bloodwork done on your cycles? Do you get bloodwork done at all (like on TRT?)
Tuesday morning at 7:30 am I have blood work, chest x-ray, and ECG.
 

pickapeck

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Testing, testing, can I reply? I was replying to Matsuo in such a way as to elicit a reaction b/c I wanted to be tested to think a bit deeper about this and come up with a better working model than "test, 19nos, DHTs, orals" tbh, but now I either cannot reply to Matsuo or cannot reply here.

Edit:
@pickapeck
What was insulting though? In all seriousness, the thinking folks (intellectual wankery, labcoats) should rally around the simple cause of breaking down this "DHT derivative" concept, and we might learn from each other in the process.

Now it's been a while since I thought of orgo chem, but can we stick to base compounds and work on a model that properly differentiates "for the masses" (which includes me, btw, I just want to go beyond BAD bro science) the classes of drugs?
The point is your post was arrogant and insulting. This goes beyond organic chemistry. There is plenty out in the scientific literature if you really want to study it. Bro-logic will predominate since almost no one will study these things at a level to understand the nuances of them and really nothing is out there used in combination at bodybuilding doses. Really almost no literature is published where they have been used as such. The reason these folks refer to Primo as a DHT derivative is because it is C4-C5 reduced. That makes the compound impossible to aromatize to estrogen. It is also C1-C2 unsaturated and C1 methylated and that seems to attenuate androgenic effects.What you may have had in mind is that simple modification does not equate to all the characteristics assigned to dihydrotestosterone, which would be on point. There is no reason to insult.
 

b_cornelius

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It's because the concept of a "DHT based" AAS is utter fiction. I don't know where this concept comes from, but it's taken firm root in the minds of every bodybuilder and touted as fact. Primo is a commercially available, non-aromatizatible, non-5α reducable testosterone derivative. There is a structural distinction between 19-nortestosterone/nandrolone and testosterone-based AAS, but what in the FUCK is this bad broscience that has people thinking primo is a DHT derivative? So, like Masteron, I believe its C-3 ketone group is reduced ("similar to DHT"), that makes it "a DHT?" It's a very simplistic and erroneous assumption to think that modification at that position makes primo affect libido or hair loss the way that DHT does. If anything, it just makes it a weak active ligand despite tight binding to the AR.
Watch out for that "DHT receptor" which gets mentioned every once in awhile.
 

Type-IIx

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The point is your post was arrogant and insulting. This goes beyond organic chemistry. There is plenty out in the scientific literature if you really want to study it. Bro-logic will predominate since almost no one will study these things at a level to understand the nuances of them and really nothing is out there used in combination at bodybuilding doses. Really almost no literature is published where they have been used as such. The reason these folks refer to Primo as a DHT derivative is because it is C4-C5 reduced. That makes the compound impossible to aromatize to estrogen. It is also C1-C2 unsaturated and C1 methylated and that seems to attenuate androgenic effects.What you may have had in mind is that simple modification does not equate to all the characteristics assigned to dihydrotestosterone, which would be on point. There is no reason to insult.
My fault for being arrogant/insulting. My reasons though for wanting to emphasise that the common modification to primo and to mast as not being a DHT derivative (quotes or not) is that it is a mistake to view either of these compounds as related meaningfully to DHT (which is notorious for endogenously causing hair loss/prostate problems) when the exact opposite is true due to their 5α reduction-- they are less likely to "behave as DHT" in any meaningful way. And are actually advantageous because of this (when used within the proper context). I do apologize for lacking tact though, it is definitely an issue. But do you see what I mean with the widespread misconceptions that primo/mast are actually worse in these ways when that CANNOT be true chemically?
 

Type-IIx

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Watch out for that "DHT receptor" which gets mentioned every once in awhile.
I do need to work on not coming off as insulting or worse arrogant though. But I have learned a bit since you last gave me some push back on the myofibrillar/sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (in)distinction and the significance of ribosomal biogenesis that's being elaborated on recently, and for that I thank you. I hate having to keep track of all the moving mTOR pieces (it's an unwieldy thing) but it's relevant for mechanical loading/AAs so necessary... Anyway, if anyone including you wants to actually write up a better imperfect model so guys don't think primo makes their hair fall out I'm up for it.
 

Kaladryn

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Just because someone says some steroid is "derived" from DHT or Progesterone doesn't mean they necessarily think it acts like DHT or progesterone, there are plenty of cases where they don't, but there are cases where they do, and it happens in different ways. Primo definitely seems to have some "DHT" like effects in some people, particularly in the skin, such as acne and hairloss, particularly in women.
 

Kaladryn

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Watch out for that "DHT receptor" which gets mentioned every once in awhile.
Yes but DHT bound the AR is going too different than Testosterone bound to the AR as the entire complex is involved in the transcription that will take place.
 

b_cornelius

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I do need to work on not coming off as insulting or worse arrogant though. But I have learned a bit since you last gave me some push back on the myofibrillar/sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (in)distinction and the significance of ribosomal biogenesis that's being elaborated on recently, and for that I thank you. I hate having to keep track of all the moving mTOR pieces (it's an unwieldy thing) but it's relevant for mechanical loading/AAs so necessary... Anyway, if anyone including you wants to actually write up a better imperfect model so guys don't think primo makes their hair fall out I'm up for it.
Just use a topical androgen antagonist for your hair, there's two of them to choose from, problem solved. That frees up some time to worry about other hair-related factors and pathways that really matter.
 

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