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If insulin is the most anabolic hormone in existence...

Then why do people swear it is so worthless without AAS or GH? I understand the whole "it will make you fat (especially if you eat fat in your macros during its active life)" argument, but calories and IUs can be controlled. So beyond that, what are the checks-and-balances, or what exactly is insulin stopping or blunting that prevents you from gaining substantial weight on insulin without AAS or GH? :confused:

Interested in any serious input. Not interested in parroting of old 'accepted norms'.

Thanks

PS: I know its risky. I know I could die or wind up diabetic, etc.

I don't feel it is worthless without roids. Just use less of it. The more gear you are using the more slin you can take and the more you can eat.
I used to do 2 slin days a week when cleaning out and it really helped me maintain my gains while I was off.
 
Then why do people swear it is so worthless without AAS or GH? I understand the whole "it will make you fat (especially if you eat fat in your macros during its active life)" argument, but calories and IUs can be controlled. So beyond that, what are the checks-and-balances, or what exactly is insulin stopping or blunting that prevents you from gaining substantial weight on insulin without AAS or GH? :confused:
.

Because insulin is not generally a rate-limiting step in protein synthesis. AAS, at the cellular level, increase protein synthesis by increasing levels of RNA Polymerase I in the nuclei of skeletal muscle cells. That enzyme is a rate-limiting step in protein synthesis. All other things being equal, more RNA Polymerase I = greater protein synthesis.

Insulin won't even really assist with nutrient storage unless your body's ability to uptake protein, glucose, etc. from the bloodstream is somehow impaired (which can happen with androgens + GH, but dose and baseline Insulin Resistance matter). Insulin will decrease the rate of calabolism, but it just doesn't take much higher than basal levels of insulin to achieve this. So, a simple protein shake with some carbs is going to give you maximal inhibition of tissue breakdown post W/O.

Ask yourself the reverse of your question. Unless your blood glucose is all fucked up, your body is already uptaking all the nutrients you consume into your cells. Since your body's own endogenous insulin is already doing the job, why should injecting more do a damn thing?

-zaosha
 
Because insulin is not generally a rate-limiting step in protein synthesis. AAS, at the cellular level, increase protein synthesis by increasing levels of RNA Polymerase I in the nuclei of skeletal muscle cells. That enzyme is a rate-limiting step in protein synthesis. All other things being equal, more RNA Polymerase I = greater protein synthesis.

Insulin won't even really assist with nutrient storage unless your body's ability to uptake protein, glucose, etc. from the bloodstream is somehow impaired (which can happen with androgens + GH, but dose and baseline Insulin Resistance matter). Insulin will decrease the rate of calabolism, but it just doesn't take much higher than basal levels of insulin to achieve this. So, a simple protein shake with some carbs is going to give you maximal inhibition of tissue breakdown post W/O.

Ask yourself the reverse of your question. Unless your blood glucose is all fucked up, your body is already uptaking all the nutrients you consume into your cells. Since your body's own endogenous insulin is already doing the job, why should injecting more do a damn thing?

-zaosha

I like the way you broke it down but slin is proven with gear and GH to bring on larger gains because your natural insulin response cannot push as many nutrients into you as supplementing with more. More protein synthesis and glycogen uptake from the AAS and GH the more nutrients you can uptake runnining on stock slin at this point isn't going to give you the gains that adding larger amounts will. Also their are studies sthat show when your pancreas is stimulated your GH levels drop. By supressing this at time with supplemental slin will allow GH to be in your system longer and the added slin helps with Igf-1 conversion.

If it does nothing why is it that everyone that I know who uses it in certain ways adds 5-10lbs to their frame and they are fuller feeling all the time? This also puts your body in a very anticatabolic state from the extra nutrients being stored. Not to mention the fuller the muscles get the larger the pumps and that stretches the muscles giving them a fuller rounder look, while at the same time making room for faster muscle gains. When you make room by stretching the facia tissue you increase the vlume area for blood to circualte into the muscles bringing faster gains.

All of this also reminds me why I think adding a small dose of T3 with larger doses of AAS and GH will bring more gains.

Thanx for your input bud. :)
 
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If it does nothing why is it that everyone that I know who uses it in certain ways adds 5-10lbs to their frame and they are fuller feeling all the time?
Thanx for your input bud. :)

Insulin has synergy with high dose androgens + GH because of the impaired insulin sensitivty and is rarely useful outside that context. Resensitizing GH receptors might be another pathway of debatable usefulness; I don't know that anyone has determined whether supraphysiological doses of insulin are necessary for his effect.

Insulin, on its own, is basically just going to make you fatter unless you need it to bring your BG into the normal range - in which case you are diabetic.

-zaosha
 
Insulin has synergy with high dose androgens + GH because of the impaired insulin sensitivty and is rarely useful outside that context. Resensitizing GH receptors might be another pathway of debatable usefulness; I don't know that anyone has determined whether supraphysiological doses of insulin are necessary for his effect.

Insulin, on its own, is basically just going to make you fatter unless you need it to bring your BG into the normal range - in which case you are diabetic.

-zaosha

According to dat it's somewhere between 1-7ius to resensitize gh receptors...more has the opposite affect
 
From dat's sticky.....

Insulin physiology

It is often stated that the primary benefit of insulin in bodybuilding is that it increases the uptake of glucose into muscle and further that this movement of glucose is insulin dependent. But that is not exactly true. It may not be widely known but it is clearly established that insulin is NOT needed for glucose uptake and utilisation in man and therefore glucose uptake is NOT insulin dependent

There is a sufficient population of glucose transporters in all cell membranes at all times to ensure enough glucose uptake to satisfy the cell’s respiration, even in the absence of insulin. Insulin can and does increase the number of these transporters in some cells but glucose uptake is never truly insulin dependent.

Stimulatory & Inhibiting actions

Through stimulating the translocation or movement of 'Glut 4' glucose transporters from the cytoplasm of muscle and adipose tissue to the cell membrane insulin increases the rate of glucose uptake to values greater than the uptake that takes place in the basal state without insulin.

When insulin is administered to people with diabetes who are fasting, blood glucose concentration falls. It is generally assumed that this is because insulin increases glucose uptake into tissues, particularly muscle. In fact this is NOT the case and is another error arising from extrapolating from in vitro rat data. It has been shown quite unequivocally that insulin at concentrations that are within the normal physiological range lowers blood glucose through inhibiting hepatic glucose production without stimulating peripheral glucose uptake. As hepatic glucose output is 'switched off' by the inhibiting action of insulin, glucose concentration falls and glucose uptake actually decreases. Contrary to most textbooks and previous teaching, glucose uptake is therefore actually increased in uncontrolled diabetes and decreased by insulin administration.

When insulin is given to patients with uncontrolled diabetes it switches off a number of metabolic processes (lipolysis, proteolysis, ketogenesis and gluconeogenesis) by a similar inhibiting action. The result is that free fatty acid (FFA) concentrations fall effectively to zero within minutes and ketogenesis inevitably stops through lack of substrate. It takes a while for the ketones to clear from the circulation, as the 'body load' is massive as they are water and fat soluble and distribute within body water and body fat. Since both ketones and FFA compete with glucose as energy substrate at the point of entry of substrates into the Krebs cycle, glucose metabolism increases inevitably as FFA and ketone levels fall (despite the concomitant fall in plasma glucose concentration).

Thus insulin increases glucose metabolism more through reducing FFA and ketone levels than it does through recruiting more glucose transporters into the muscle cell membrane.

NOTE: The above was taken from:

Mechanism of action of insulin in diabetic patients: a dose-related effect on glucose production and utilisation, Brown P, Tompkins C, Juul S & Sonksen PH, British Medical Journal 1978 1239–1242.

Anabolic effect

Through facilitating glucose entry into cells in amounts greater than needed for cellular respiration insulin will stimulate glycogen formation.

It is possible to increase muscle bulk and performance not only through increasing muscle glycogen stores on a "chronic" basis but also to increase muscle bulk through inhibition of muscle protein breakdown. Just as insulin has an inhibiting action in inhibiting glucose breakdown in muscle glycogen, it also has an equally important inhibiting action in inhibiting protein breakdown.

The evidence now indicates that insulin does NOT stimulate protein synthesis directly (this process is under the control of growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I)). It has long been known that insulin-treated patients with diabetes have an increase in lean body mass when compared with matched controls. This results from insulin's inhibition of protein breakdown in muscle tissue.

Growth Hormone Anabolic Actions

GH’s major action is to stimulate protein synthesis. It is at least as powerful as testosterone in this effect and, as they both operate through distinct pathways, their individual effects are additive or possibly even synergistic. In addition to stimulating protein synthesis, GH simultaneously mobilises fat by a direct lipolytic action. Together, these two effects are responsible for the 'partitioning' action of GH whereby it diverts nutritional calories to protein synthesis, possibly through using the energy derived from its lipolytic action. It most likely stimulates protein synthesis through mobilisation of amino acid transporters in a manner analogous to insulin and glucose transporters.

IGF-I also acts directly to stimulate protein synthesis but it has a weaker lipolytic action. GH, IGF-I and insulin thus act in concert to stimulate protein synthesis.

GH and IGF-I act in a promoting manner to stimulate protein synthesis while insulin acts in its characteristic inhibiting manner to inhibit protein breakdown. Thus they are synergistic in their powerful anabolic action.

Insulin is essential for the anabolic action of GH. GH administration in the absence of adequate insulin reserves (as during fasting or in Type 1 diabetes) is in fact catabolic and its lipolytic and ketogenic properties can induce diabetic ketoacidosis. Thus GH and insulin are closely linked in normal physiology and it is of great interest to see that athletes have discovered ways in which this normal physiological dependence can be exploited to enhance performance.

NOTE: The above was "lifted" with little change from parts of:

HORMONES AND SPORT: Insulin, growth hormone and sport, P H Sonksen, Journal of Endocrinology (2001) 170, 13–25
 
From Dat's sticky:

When insulin is administered to people with diabetes who are fasting, blood glucose concentration falls. It is generally assumed that this is because insulin increases glucose uptake into tissues, particularly muscle. In fact this is NOT the case and is another error arising from extrapolating from in vitro rat data. It has been shown quite unequivocally that insulin at concentrations that are within the normal physiological range lowers blood glucose through inhibiting hepatic glucose production without stimulating peripheral glucose uptake.


In response to a physiologic increase in plasma insulin concentration (~80-100 uU/ml), leg (muscle) glucose uptake increases linearly, reaching a plateau value of 10 mg/kg leg wt per minute.

DeFronzo RA, Gunnarsson R, Bjorkman O, Olsson M, Wahren J. Effects of insulin on peripheral and splanchnic glucose metabolism in non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus. J. Clin Invest 76: 149-155, 1985.

You can find a few thousand more examples of this on medline - in humans - if you are so inclined.

Dat is right that insulin action in diabetics is primarily reducing hepatic glucose output, but exogenous insulin will most definitely increase peripheral uptake.

-zaosha
 
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Shit, this is a great thread. Thanks guys
:headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang:
 
I'll be sticking around for this debate. I am studying for finals or i'd review all the cited studies :banghead:
 
Insulin, on its own, is basically just going to make you fatter unless you need it to bring your BG into the normal range - in which case you are diabetic.

-zaosha

I must respectfully disagree in this regard. Completely. It is working fabulously towards my fat loss goals, and no it is not glycogen overcompensation giving false readings.

If I've learned one thing across the years, all studies and scientific data aside, it is that almost everything is "how you use it" and not clear and final. This included. I however have not tried it for weight gain, but if i do would obviously not pump myself with 10 IUs and 150g of sugar. Again, its 'how you use it' and if you dont back it with the right combinations, obviously you could get fat. People take it to the extreme, thinking the more insulin they can handle the more carbs they can take in, the bigger they get. Eventually, there will be a separate factor holding you back.

Perhaps you're right, perhaps natural insulin levels are sufficient to keep up with natural hormone levels and hormones, not insulin, are the limiting factor and thus there is nothing to gain. However, after this reading I've determined that I will have to see for myself. I just cant trust the guys who shout "i took 10iu insulin with 100g sugar pre workout and 80g sugar intra with 100g complex carbs post and got fat! INSULIN MADE ME FAT!" (not pointing any fingers at all). I guess I've yet to see the guy who takes 3-5 IU and 20-40g simple carbohydrates saying "damn man, this stuff makes me fat. without insulin and with a little less carbs i was fine, and all this did was put on the BF%!"
 
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I must respectfully disagree in this regard. Completely. It is working fabulously towards my fat loss goals, and no it is not glycogen overcompensation giving false readings.

The OP's post was about using slin for an anabolic effect, not dieting.

Insulin doesn't do anything fabulous for fat loss. It directly inhibits lipolysis even at relatively low concentrations. It might have a valid use as an anti-catabolic in low doses coupled with low carbohydrate intake along the lines of Dat's CPWO protocol. I have used it while dieting at very low dosages based on some of Dat's recommendations and generally feel it can work if you really know what you are doing.

But I still maintain that in the context of a bulking diet with plenty of carbs (and thus plenty of endogenous insulin production) you aren't going to get anything from insulin but more fat gains unless you are running androgens + GH. Maybe if you are carrying IFBB pro-level mass the beta cells of the pancreas just can't really keep up with your food intake, but I'm guessing that applies 0.01% of members here.

This shit gets a little ridiculous. 90% of the posters here putting up their 2 gram+/week cycles + peps/GH/slin/etc. would look like shit compared to the bodybuilders portrayed in Pumping Iron (self-included, though I have had to go the legal route and have never exceeded 600mg/week). And those guys did that shit in an era where we knew far less about nutrition and nothing but AAS was even available.

Do guys here who have trained for a year or two consistently really need to be pushing Olympia competitor dosages of multiple compounds when most don't even pack 200lbs of LBM and will never make a dime from this sport (if they even compete)? I realize you may use quite sane dosages and may have trained for years and know your shit. This really isn't directed at you, but more at guys who have spent less time in the gym than I had at 20 using shit that may cost them their health, freedom, etc. all for a hobby they may not even give a shit about in a couple years.

-zaosha
 
This shit gets a little ridiculous. 90% of the posters here putting up their 2 gram+/week cycles + peps/GH/slin/etc. would look like shit compared to the bodybuilders portrayed in Pumping Iron (self-included, though I have had to go the legal route and have never exceeded 600mg/week). And those guys did that shit in an era where we knew far less about nutrition and nothing but AAS was even available.

This is the analogy I use everytime. If you can't look like them or close using test, deca, dbol, or a few other compounds, in 500-1000mg total androgens/week, then just give up now or pay for it later. And everyone in that fucking gym was jacked and cut, so don't play the 'genetics' card.

Lol @ all the keyboards out writing up about the proper use of peptides with 1 hour post this, then 20 minutes pre that, and then this protocol for GH, and then you want to use this as a 'cutter' and this as a 'bulker', and a gram of this and a gram of that, some insulin which has to be done 14.353 minutes after this, and you want AT LEAST 200g of waxy carbshit not to go hypo and die.

But this is all to fuel the recovery and growth of 150lbs of lean body mass after 45 minutes of baby intensity weightlifting, you will need all these exotic steroids, growth hormone, cjcghrpgahrhshdf-12353325 peptide, and two different types of insulins, oh and 6000 calories to pack on all that mass (~1-2lbs by cycles end).

"Good work bro, killed it."


edit: ...went off on a tangent, but you get it.
 
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