LANTUS : Yes Or NO ?

[goal245]

With lantus, you will need to be aware of it working in the background for longer time. And account for this with meals and such..
I can go to sleep without any suprises during the night also..

You do know Lantus is prescribed once daily before bed right?

 

[goal245]

I agree with you. With Lantus your timing better be impeccable. With faster acting R its much easier to control.

false, just take 20iu and forget about it

 

[IronLion2]

To add to the above, if you take large amounts of fast acting insulin and follow it up with hundreds of grams of simple carbs then yes you can become diabetic, but the same would happen if you ate a bunch of simple carbs and didn't take insulin.

Don't blame the slin, blame the sugar/carbs/calories

Fair enough. I always assumed all the top BB'ers would be diabettics coming off from so long, doesnt end up happening. Very surprised about that!

 

[tren_plz]

Ive been taking Humalog pre workout with zero carbs intra while on dnp and 6iu black tops a day. My BS is 92 upon waking.

I eat my reg pre workout meal 50g iso/70g cream of rice. 50 min later 5-8iu Humalog as I walk in the door just to shuttle eeas, creatine, carnitine ect. Never go hypo except with heavy deads/squats.

Ive got about 50 lantus pens since my fiancé is a type 1 diabetic.

goal245 is pretty much spot on in every thread I've seen him discuss insulin/gh and the pharmokinetics and usage medically and bodybuilding wise.

Might dable around with 20IU to start my growth phase. 1 more week of dnp before Thanksgiving and I'm done with dnp for now

 

[Elvia1023]

Ive been taking Humalog pre workout with zero carbs intra while on dnp and 6iu black tops a day. My BS is 92 upon waking.

I eat my reg pre workout meal 50g iso/70g cream of rice. 50 min later 5-8iu Humalog as I walk in the door just to shuttle eeas, creatine, carnitine ect. Never go hypo except with heavy deads/squats.

Ive got about 50 lantus pens since my fiancé is a type 1 diabetic.

goal245 is pretty much spot on in every thread I've seen him discuss insulin/gh and the pharmokinetics and usage medically and bodybuilding wise.

Might dable around with 20IU to start my growth phase. 1 more week of dnp before Thanksgiving and I'm done with dnp for now

Sounds good. But if that were me I guarantee I would be going hypo bad every time in the gym. Even if I took 4iu humalog 50 mins after that meal I would go hypo. 8iu would be a disaster for me. I do agree the way goal posts about lantus is a sensible way of using it to your advantage.

 

[goal245]

I do agree the way goal posts about lantus is a sensible way of using it to your advantage.

It comes down to not abusing insulin to a point of having to jack up the food. Regular, Fast Acting, Intermediate acting can all be used in a safe/beneficial manner as long as the insulin dose is based on diet and not the other way around like many do. Most people pick an insulin dose and then add carbs to feed the insulin when it should be insulin dose based on current food.

Insulin inst some magic anabolic, diabetics aren't muscular from taking insulin. but it can be used in combination with all the other bodybuilding drugs to get to the next size level, including next level size waist and so on

 

[ALLEX]

Most people pick an insulin dose and then add carbs to feed the insulin when it should be insulin dose based on current food.

Unless you are a diabetic, your body already does it for you.

 

[Joe293]

Milos's theory is that the only time insulin is useful to a bodybuilder is around the workout window; which makes sense from a recovery standpoint. Having a 24 hr acting insulin in your body serves no purpose other than slowly destroying your insulin sensitivity.

He mentioned this in a recent interview with Ron Harris

Exactly, and anyone who thinks Milos isn’t very bright his track record for helping guys get ready for the O is incredible not to mention the amount of times he competed as a pro bodybuilder. Well over 60 times and almost always in tremendous shape.

 

[mujeriego]

Lantus with HGH and no change in diet (no excess calories) = best lean gains

INSULIN DOES NOT CAUSE INSULIN RESISTANCE

TOO MANY CALORIES CAUSE INSULIN RESISTANCE - WITH OR WITHOUT INSULIN

PEOPLE DO NOT DEVELOP DIABETES FROM INSULIN

PEOPLE DEVELOP INSULIN FROM EATING TOO MUCH

Exactly imagine how many diabetics would be dropping dead or having to increase their insulin doses to ridiculous levels if that were the case

 

[akimbo]

I have used lantus at the 20iu dose per day and i DIDNT get any signs of insuline resistance. However I have the feeling that it raises IGF effectively. I got teribbly numb hands in the night when im combined it with 4iu gh. There are also studies showing that. And dosing 20iu per day is not expensive.

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[Reno911]

I have used lantus at the 20iu dose per day and i DIDNT get any signs of insuline resistance. However I have the feeling that it raises IGF effectively. I got teribbly numb hands in the night when im combined it with 4iu gh. There are also studies showing that. And dosing 20iu per day is not expensive.

Gesendet von meinem MHA-L09 mit Tapatalk

Would you be willing to expand a bit on your diet protocol during your Lantus run?

 

[Mike Arnold]

Milos's theory is that the only time insulin is useful to a bodybuilder is around the workout window; which makes sense from a recovery standpoint. Having a 24 hr acting insulin in your body serves no purpose other than slowly destroying your insulin sensitivity.

He mentioned this in a recent interview with Ron Harris

I think he's wrong.

I KNOW Lantus can be used VERY effectively WITHOUT destroying one's insulin sensitivity. The main problem is that most people are using it incorrectly. It's a simple protocol too.

 

[Mike Arnold]

As mentioned, insulin is most beneficial when the need is placed upon the system to bring nutrients to muscle tissue. Pre and post workout periods are where the greatest gain will be noted with the chance of blunting insulin sensitivity the lowest, as the peripheral tissues are hypersensitive when compared to the liver.

I believe the greatest detriment will be seen with lantus in regards to longevity, as constantly elevated insulin levels cause whole system strain and promote cardio-metabolic disease.

When abused (used daily)--absolutely.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I agree with you. With Lantus your timing better be impeccable. With faster acting R its much easier to control.

Actually, when compared on an iu to iu basis, it is WAY easier to control BG with Lantus than something like Humalog. The faster-acting the insulin is, the more dangerous it becomes due to its ability to rapidly drop BG levels into a dangerous range. Most of the bodybuilders having problems with insulin are from Humalog...because it takes way less humalog to go hypo than it does Lantus.

Unless the Lantus does is pretty high you generally don't even have to think about meal timing...because it is released so slowly that even if you skipped a meal your body could easily compensate for the difference through glucogenesis. It is much easier to overwhelm the body's protective mechanisms with humalog.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I've experimented with Lantus for 7-8 years now...on many different clients (as well as myself) and have found the following. Since I am no longer coaching and writing as my primary source of income, I will lay out my Lantus program here, as well as some of the reasoning behind it.



1.) Low dose Lantus doesn't do jack-shit (in comparison to higher doses)! Because Lantus is released into the bloodstream at such a slow rate, a 20-30 iu dose will only leach a few iu of insulin (or less) into the bloodstream per hour. The problem here is that these few iu won't be provided "in addition" to the insulin already provided by the body. They will be provided "in place" of endogenous insulin. You see, the pancreas only releases as much insulin as is necessary to maintain BG levels within a normal range, so if a few extra iu is being introduced into the bloodstream each hour, the pancreas will automatically reduce its insulin output, as it simply won't need to secrete as much in order to keep BG levels within a normal range. Basically, you end up switching one for the other.

When using a fast-acting insulin (Humulin or Humalog), the pancreas will do the same thing (slowdown or stop insulin secretion while insulin levels remain elevated), but because fast-acting insulin releases insulin into the bloodstream so quickly, supraphysiological insulin concentrations are quickly achieved despite the loss of endogenous insulin secretion. Therefore, all the beneficial effects normally associated with insulin, such as increased glycogen storage, etc, will be observed.


2.) Higher doses of Lantus are required in order to reap its true benefits. Although low doses of Lantus are nearly useless (IMO), higher doses most certainly are not. In order to use Lantus effectively the bodybuilder must use a dose high enough in order to not only make up for the 24 hour decrease in endogenous insulin output that will surely occur, but he must use enough to reach supraphysiological concentrations. Obviously, this increases the risk of going hypo, but the risk of going hypo is still not any greater (at any one moment) than when using something like Humulin-R. The only difference is that it will stay active for much longer, so it would be comparable to using Humulin-R at evenly spaced intervals over a 24 hour period. Obviously, this means the individual will have to watch his diet for longer, but it won't drop BG levels any faster. Even a big dose of Lantus will typically drop BG levels less quickly than just moderate dose of humalog. Again, this is due to its slow release profile.

3.) Lantus should not be used frequently. Daily, high dose use will rapidly damage insulin sensitivity (yes, insulin does decrease insulin sensitivity through insulin receptor binding), thereby negating the entire reason for using insulin in the first place. As insulin sensitivity worsens the body's ability to use insulin deteriorates, so you need to use higher and higher doses in order to continue getting the same results. Not only will your insulin injections become less effective over time, but your body will no longer respond as well to its own insulin either, which means that even when your insulin injections aren't active, the pancreas will be required to pump out larger quantities of insulin just to keep BG levels within a normal range throughout the day. You will have all this insulin constantly circulating throughout your body (both basal levels and your post-meal levels will increase), but with only a fraction of the potential benefits!

This is a never ending viscous circle that is compounded by GH use, as GH also decreases insulin sensitivity in a dose-dependent manner (just like insulin). Combining these two drugs (especially in high doses) is the most surefire way to damage one's insulin sensitivity. Unfortunately, we still have coaches today who advocate using insulin to manage GH-induced elevations in blood sugar. Stupid! Such recommendations only illustrate how ignorant these people are, as this only makes the problem worse! Sure, it might keep BG levels in a normal range (for a while; until they burn out their islet cells), but elevated BG levels are only a symptom of the underlying condition--insulin resistance. The people who use insulin as symptom management might appear to be fine on the outside (at first), but they are doing a ton of internal damage--to every cell in their body (the cardiovascular system being one of the most important). In time, they will start to develop all the side effects that insulin and GH abuse is known for, eventually culminating in externally visible side effects that ruin the physique. When someone starts developing insulin resistance they need to take steps to fix the actual problem, not cover up the symptoms and pretend the problem doesn't exist!

_____________________________________________________________
So, with that said, what options do we have? While we can never completely eliminate risk when using Lantus, we can greatly minimize it, while still experiencing very good results. In my experience, I have found that this can be done in one of two different ways.

The first option is to use high doses of Lantus daily for short-term blasts lasting 2 weeks or less. However, I have found this still causes a significant decrease in insulin sensitivity, which needs to be reversed during the individual's off-time.

Although the above method is an option, I have gotten away from that approach over the years and now tend to recommend using the drug only 1-2 days per week (max) in high doses. This should be done on days that the individual trains their weakest bodypart(s) and is consuming above average quantities of carbs and overall calories. If their weakest bodyparts are small bodyparts like biceps, calves, etc, I recommend pairing those bodyparts up with a larger bodypart, such as back or legs (when possible). I believe this is important, as the body will be able to more effectively use the Lantus if there is a larger quantity of muscle fiber that requires recovery. Training larger bodyparts also leads to a greater increase in insulin sensitivity, which partially helps ameliorate the negative effect that insulin has on insulin sensitivity.

In most cases I recommend that the entire dose is given in a single injection about 1-2 hour before training. For those who train at night and only eat one solid meal after training, this meal should be eaten as close to bed as possible and should be the largest meal of the day in terms of both carbs, protein (from slower digesting sources like meat) and also fats. It would also be a good idea to keep a protein shake (that contains a fast-digesting protein source like whey, as it can easily be converted to glucose if necessary) by your bedside. That way, if you wake up in the middle of the night you can just reach over, grab it, and slug it down.

Obviously, if you take your Lantus injection later in the day it is going to carry over into the next day, but this is fine. You want your muscles to soak up as many nutrients as possible in the first 24 hours after training, regardless of whether you train early in the day or later at night.

Now onto the part most of you probably want to know--the doses. I am reluctant to post them here because there will be someone saying how dangerous they are (I would dispute that), but I will anyway. However, before we get to that let me first say that I don't think Lantus use is necessary or suitable for beginners or even intermediate level bodybuilders. By that I mean that the individual should have already been training for quite a while and be fairly large. They don't have to be pro or even National-level size, but I do think they should "look" like a bodybuilder and have accumulated a fairly large amount of muscle mass beyond baseline. They should no longer be able to make easy gains with AAS.

With that said, there is a range I usually stay within. Where in that range I think someone should be will depend on their size and overall caloric requirements. Lastly, I recommend that high-dose Lantus use be avoided during contest prep or anytime fat loss is the primary goal, as it can severely hinder fat loss. I am not opposed to using it during prep on re-feed days, but whether or not it should be done depends on the individual and their circumstances. It is all individual.

Assuming the individual is an acceptable candidate for Lantus, doses generally sit between 80-200 iu, with 100-125 iu being an "average" dose. Very large bodybuilders with high caloric requirements can often get away with 200 iu without any hypo symptoms at all, even when following their normal diets.

____________________________________________________________
There are some whose primary purpose in using Lantus is to increase IGF-1 levels just as much as it is to increase nutrient delivery/reduce muscle breakdown. While Lantus does seem to be very effective in this regard, I would caution against using Lantus primarily for IGF-1 elevation. In order to reap maximum benefits from its IGF-1 elevating effects, it would need to be used daily for an extended period of time. Due to the potential negative health consequences associated with using Lantus in this fashion, as well as the adverse effects it can have on the physique, I cannot in good conscience recommend this course of action. Does daily, high-dose Lantus use have the potential to add a lot of size? Yes, it does, particularly when used alongside GH, but you will pay the price with your health...and ultimately ruin your physique. If you don't care about health, aesthetics, or muscle quality...go for it. If you don't want to experience those side effects, then limit your Lantus use as described above, while also employing insulin sensitizing measures on the days you don't use Lantus. This will allow you to obtain many of it's recovery and growth benefits without the same degree of health risk and while greatly minimizing any potential damage to your physique.

 

[raizer]

Although the above method is an option, I have gotten away from that approach over the years and now tend to recommend using the drug only 1-2 days per week (max) in high doses. This should be done on days that the individual trains their weakest bodypart(s) and is consuming above average quantities of carbs and overall calories. If their weakest bodyparts are small bodyparts like biceps, calves, etc, I recommend pairing those bodyparts up with a larger bodypart, such as back or legs (when possible). I believe this is important, as the body will be able to more effectively use the Lantus if there is a larger quantity of muscle fiber that requires recovery. training larger bodyparts also leads to a greater increase in insulin sensitivity, which partially helps ameliorate the negative effect that insulin has on insulin sensitivity.

In most cases I recommend that the entire dose is given in a single injection about 1-2 hour before training. For those who train at night and only eat one solid meal after training, this meal should be eaten as close to bed as possible and should be the largest meal of the day in terms of both carbs, protein (from slower digesting sources like meat) and also fats. It would also be a good idea to keep a protein shake (that contains a fast-digesting protein source like whey, as it can easily be converted to glucose if necessary) by your bedside. That way, if you wake up in the middle of the night you can just reach over, grab it, and slug it down.

When you use Lantus 1-2 times per week do you use also Humalog with intra workout drink the same or other training days?

 

[warlock]

Mike,

As far as refeeds and lantus, would you still use the same protocol, 80-200iu injected first thing in the morning? Along with lantus, would you still use small dose of humalog with your meals?

 

[goal245]

I've experimented with Lantus for 7-8 years now...on many different clients (as well as myself) and have found the following. Since I am no longer coaching and writing as my primary source of income, I will lay out my Lantus program here, as well as some of the reasoning behind it.

Low dose Lantus doesn't do jack-shit (in comparison to higher doses)!

What do you think of combining low dose lantus with regular insulin, this method worked well for me and balances some of the points you made above

morning 10-15iu lantus
3-4iu regular insulin with meals (3-4 times per day)
night 10-15iu lantus

I personally haven't done high dose lantus but know people that have and they did run into problems but that's to be expected using close to 200iu per day

 

[Cinder]

My docs think it was lantus that caused my first ever case of pancreatitis. Something about this shouldn't be active this long in a non- diabetic

 

[Elvia1023]

When I read Mike's first post I was going to reply how I knew he thinks high dosed lantus is the optimal way and low dosed lantus is a waste of time in most scenarios. Goal's post about diabetics is spot on too. Obviously they don't eat much but it's not like they are walking round huge from using high doses of insulin. When used by bodybuilders though it can obviously change people fast.

I think common sense needs to be used and picking a protocol that suits your body and current diet. I think Milos is great as is his protocol but it's not for everyone. Goal's protocol would be solid but as would Mike's you just need to pick what suits you best and obviously experiment to find that.

I have never used lantus but I will do. I would personally use lantus at a lower dose but add in other forms of insulin around my workouts. But none of this 20-25iu pre and post. At the same time I want to drive lot's of nutrients and grow so I would use an amount that fits my diet. I am using an intra shake of 100g carbs now so 8-10iu would likely be used. The same for post workout as my whole food meal is approx 80-100g carbs.

Guys who are new to insulin trust me humalog can fuck you up if you don't have your diet sorted. Too many start insulin not having a good diet in place or basically not being planned. If you are using 4iu then fine but when using higher doses it could really fuck you up if not done properly. At the same time it's the easiest to time. But regular slin is so much more forgiving. I remember I used log first then r second and I couldn't believe the difference. You would have to be an idiot to go hypo on regular slin. Well not an idiot but basically not eat but the same goes for any slin. I conducted experiments on myself and purposely went hypo to learn how my body responded and it was very hard to go hypo from regular for me even eating small amounts and I am very slin sensitive. If you eat regular meals and take an intra shake (when dosing preworkout) using sensible amounts you shouldn't have anything to worry about at all.