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LANTUS : Yes Or NO ?

supertesty

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Hey guys, I think Lantus is controversial thread is BBing. Its always turn into a debating club.
So lets go for another one. what happens in Slin club stays in slin club. :D

First, we have the guys who say "Insulin is insulin, no matter what the lenght of it" then "Lantus is the best thing to turn you into diabetic" or "Slin is pointless into bodybuilding since there are fast acting slin that go in and go out fast"

The guy who say "Lantus is good only for those who run high dose hgh (to compensate the slin de-sensitivity)

And we have the guys who say "Slin is the most powerfull drug" "Slin can recomp you more than anything" etc...

I always run humulin-r or humalog. IMHO, slin have to be used if you're already on <10% bf. I used it few times and I think you mainly hold water (what's is completely normal the fact slin is just a transporter and not a mass builder)
I prefered much more hum-r than humalog. I had hypos on huma when used pre-wo no matter the perfect protocol of carbing I used pre. lol (complex our before, rapid just before and carbs intra)

Whats your opinion ?
 
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Markosterone

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I never use lantus, only fast acting slin.
But i am no harcore gainer downing 600g carbs per day also...
I use fast acting with my hgh shot, and depending on what i want to get from it...
Like i have been on keto diet and using 2 units every morning on emoty stomach , plus between meals, to reach higher level of ketosis faster..

My personal opinion is fast acting slin is easier to control. There will be no suprises when you pass the 2h mark post injection.
With lantus, you will need to be aware of it working in the background for longer time. And account for this with meals and such..
I can go to sleep without any suprises during the night also..
Of course its dose dependent. All about what you want to get from it again.

I do 14iu fast acting post workout when i consume carbs on a bulk... for this i want as much insulin as possible without going hypo. Why? I want it to push as much nutrients as possible so in from my shake and lower my glucose enough but not go hypo.
 

thethinker48

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Milos's theory is that the only time insulin is useful to a bodybuilder is around the workout window; which makes sense from a recovery standpoint. Having a 24 hr acting insulin in your body serves no purpose other than slowly destroying your insulin sensitivity.

He mentioned this in a recent interview with Ron Harris
 

WhyIncision

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Milos's theory is that the only time insulin is useful to a bodybuilder is around the workout window; which makes sense from a recovery standpoint. Having a 24 hr acting insulin in your body serves no purpose other than slowly destroying your insulin sensitivity.

He mentioned this in a recent interview with Ron Harris

Milos isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Many guys have been on Rx muscle saying his answer for a lot of issues with insulin is to increase the dose. It isn't surprising he thinks a basil insulin is useless, because it makes absolute sense if you're using GH and your blood glucose is slowly starting to elevate.
 

thethinker48

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Milos isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Many guys have been on Rx muscle saying his answer for a lot of issues with insulin is to increase the dose. It isn't surprising he thinks a basil insulin is useless, because it makes absolute sense if you're using GH and your blood glucose is slowly starting to elevate.
He seems like a pretty bright guy, he pioneered a lot of modern day stuff like intra workout nutrition.

I think a lot of what it is with older experienced guys is that they've founds methods that worked and stuck to them leaving little room for adopting newer methodologies. And in all fairness why would they if they know what works for them/their clients?

This is also why old school guys dismiss stuff like peptides, certain training methodologies...etc

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

asteelz

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As mentioned, insulin is most beneficial when the need is placed upon the system to bring nutrients to muscle tissue. Pre and post workout periods are where the greatest gain will be noted with the chance of blunting insulin sensitivity the lowest, as the peripheral tissues are hypersensitive when compared to the liver.

I believe the greatest detriment will be seen with lantus in regards to longevity, as constantly elevated insulin levels cause whole system strain and promote cardio-metabolic disease.
 

Ashop

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I never use lantus, only fast acting slin.
But i am no harcore gainer downing 600g carbs per day also...
I use fast acting with my hgh shot, and depending on what i want to get from it...
Like i have been on keto diet and using 2 units every morning on emoty stomach , plus between meals, to reach higher level of ketosis faster..

My personal opinion is fast acting slin is easier to control. There will be no suprises when you pass the 2h mark post injection.
With lantus, you will need to be aware of it working in the background for longer time. And account for this with meals and such..
I can go to sleep without any suprises during the night also..
Of course its dose dependent. All about what you want to get from it again.

I do 14iu fast acting post workout when i consume carbs on a bulk... for this i want as much insulin as possible without going hypo. Why? I want it to push as much nutrients as possible so in from my shake and lower my glucose enough but not go hypo.


I agree with you. With Lantus your timing better be impeccable. With faster acting R its much easier to control.
 

Elvia1023

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As mentioned, insulin is most beneficial when the need is placed upon the system to bring nutrients to muscle tissue. Pre and post workout periods are where the greatest gain will be noted with the chance of blunting insulin sensitivity the lowest, as the peripheral tissues are hypersensitive when compared to the liver.

I believe the greatest detriment will be seen with lantus in regards to longevity, as constantly elevated insulin levels cause whole system strain and promote cardio-metabolic disease.

x2

To me it's common sense Lantus would be highly effective at putting on sheer mass. If a guy wants to put on 30+ pounds and is willing to take some risks then that's up to him. Would I recommend it... not really. But if a guy wants to try it then great go for it just be careful.

I would rather use other forms of insulin and time them around workouts but I see merit in using lantus. It's going to fuck up your insulin sensitivity as it's basically the same as running a bath and keeping the tap on full. So if you are going to use it have periodic breaks and take extra steps to restore your sensitivity as if you don't you are asking for big problems.
 

Reno911

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I believe the greatest detriment will be seen with lantus in regards to longevity, as constantly elevated insulin levels cause whole system strain and promote cardio-metabolic disease.

This is a very good point. Lantus use is fairly new and not very widespread so there's not even a lot of anecdotal information out there on it. I just can't see it being good for insulin resistance if used long term at a dose needed for bodybuilding purposes.

That being said, I think if it were used maybe 2-3x a year for 2-3 weeks at a pop for some extra fullness and recovery it most likely wouldn't cause too many issues.
 

asteelz

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Agree with both you guys. Insulin resistance is havoc to us on the outside but even worse inside. The most unhealthy people all share one thing, and it’s IR. From the brain down to the toes everything is damaged when insulin levels are high and the tissue becomes insensitive.

I could see lantus playing a role in shorter blasts of a few weeks, but even that could be better served with humR. I believe lantus should be left for diabetics who are so out of control anyway that it’s the lesser of two evils to be hyperinsulinemic.
 

KillerStack

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I still have the same questions on insulin I had 15 years ago, asking Milos about it on the net :D I'm too lazy to study it myself but I bet Milos probably couldn't even name the main mechanism through which insulin lowers blood glucose, which is not by "opening up the cells" but through stopping liver production of glucose. I know studies show diabetics uptake glucose without any insuli n, the real problem is uncontrolled liver production of glucose. Not that insulin doesn't enhance nutrient uptake but does that Humalog shot really drive any more nutrients into your muscles? We know it doesn't increase protein synthesis - adding carbs to protein doesn't even increase synthesis as only a low level of insulin is required to maximally stimulate protein synthesis.

And regarding round the clock elevated insulin being bad, eating "a lot" raises your insulin anyway, doesn't matter if you restrict carbs. Then we have the gh which Milos advocates which will also elevate insulin and causes immediate insulin resistance from the first dose.
BTW, how are many diabetics alive after decades of insulin, and how come many can stay with the same doses if it wrecks your sensitivity in a matter of days?

Milos also advocates twice a day training with insulin before, after and sometimes between sessions so it's in the system all day long anyway.

So many questions, some perhaps stupid :D
Too bad I'm a lazy bum who doesn't want to do deep research myself. Just waiting on an expert to help me understand it all better. :D
 

TheOtherOne55

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I'd go watch/listen to some interviews with Colette Nelson where she discusses Lantus.

IMO, Lantus is better used to lower blood sugar because of GH. Even then, the amount of slin actually used is smaller—20-40ius spread out over 24 hour period.

I know guys that have used Lantus and could only use it for 2-3 weeks because of the extreme insulin resistance they got quiiiick.

I'm much more comfortable using insulin-R and humalog.
 

IronLion2

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Lantus is the best for a lot of things, the hardest to get right, and the most expensive!

Easier to gain fat, but easier to put on lean mass, the bolus distribution means you can go low carb on it, it has a very unique profile.

I do agree its the easiest to turn you diabetic.
 

goal245

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Lantus with HGH and no change in diet (no excess calories) = best lean gains

INSULIN DOES NOT CAUSE INSULIN RESISTANCE

TOO MANY CALORIES CAUSE INSULIN RESISTANCE - WITH OR WITHOUT INSULIN

PEOPLE DO NOT DEVELOP DIABETES FROM INSULIN

PEOPLE DEVELOP INSULIN FROM EATING TOO MUCH
 

goal245

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CONS OF USING INSULIN PRE-WORKOUT - MORE SPECIFICALLY DRINKING CARBS DURING WORKOUT :

Exercise is the #1 insulin sensitizer by using insulin pre workout - more specifically drinking carbs during workout you are missing out on the sensitizing effects of exercise by possibly preventing all the different enzymes and proteins such as glut4 from fully activating in the muscle since the muscle did not get depleted during training.

WOULD YOU REFUEL YOUR CAR DURING A DRAG RACE? NO

fuel up before/after event

ONLY MAKES SENSE IN ENDURANCE EVENTS (carbs with or without slin) LONG DISTANCE ENDURANCE NASCAR = REFUEL DURING RACE

endurance = fuel up during event
 
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IronLion2

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Lantus with HGH and no change in diet (no excess calories) = best lean gains

INSULIN DOES NOT CAUSE INSULIN RESISTANCE

TOO MANY CALORIES CAUSE INSULIN RESISTANCE - WITH OR WITHOUT INSULIN

PEOPLE DO NOT DEVELOP DIABETES FROM INSULIN

PEOPLE DEVELOP INSULIN FROM EATING TOO MUCH

Are you saying someone CANNOT get type II diabetes from gh and/or slin use?
 

goal245

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Are you saying someone CANNOT get type II diabetes from gh and/or slin use?

HGH can cause insulin resistance, in the serostim study about 20% of people developed insulin resistance at 18iu of hgh per day after 12 weeks, about 10% developed insulin resistance at 18iu hgh every other day.

Taking insulin with a good diet and not eating excess calories will not cause insulin resistance or type 2 diabetes.

Also keep in mind there is a big difference between what guys describe as insulin resistance (fasting blood sugar 100-110 people freak out here) and full blown type 2 diabetes.

Taking insulin with a good diet will do your pancreas good and give it rest/assistance with the amount of food body builder eat.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417290/

Early Insulinization to Prevent Diabetes Progression | Diabetes Care

Effects of beta-cell rest on beta-cell function:

The three studies demonstrating prolonged clinical remission of type 2 diabetes after a short period of β-cell rest using intensive insulin therapy are very intriguing

When one considers initiation of insulin therapy in a type 2 diabetic patient with the intention to preserve β-cell function, the level of evidence supporting this decision is relatively high.

Insulin therapy is an effective way to reverse short-term glucotoxicity and lipotoxicity and shows evidence of midterm β-cell preservation. Short-term insulin treatment is safe, with low incidence of hypoglycemia (23–25) and less concern for weight gain. However, the best method for insulin treatment in such cases—basal insulin, premix insulin analogs, MDII, or CSII—and the length of insulin therapy should be further studied.

By taking insulin with a bodybuilder type diet (lots of cals) and hgh we can greatly reduce the strain in our pancreas/beta cells. lots of research to show this
 
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goal245

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Are you saying someone CANNOT get type II diabetes from gh and/or slin use?

To add to the above, if you take large amounts of fast acting insulin and follow it up with hundreds of grams of simple carbs then yes you can become diabetic, but the same would happen if you ate a bunch of simple carbs and didn't take insulin.

Don't blame the slin, blame the sugar/carbs/calories
 

goal245

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All the guys here talking about cons of Lantus, how many have actually used Lantus?

lantus dose calculator:

https://www.lantus.com/hcp/dosing-titration/dosing-calculator

250lbs = 20iu start

20iu spread over 24 hours isn't that crazy

"A lean healthy individual might secrete about 35 units of insulin per day, yet will have about 10 times this amount stored within his pancreas. By contrast, an obese insulin-resistant person might need to produce >100 units daily to maintain normal blood glucose levels."
 

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