LATS, and magoo

stomper1 · Nov 10, 2003

I find many of your thoughts on training very interesting and feel that maybe some of your experience and knowledge in training can benefit me greatly. I have searched the board to do my best to find out how you guys train.( I never could find any of your routines posted although I did run acrross something magoo wrote giving an example of a routine he was using).
I have been bodybuilding seriously for about 5 years now and I built the size I have using a routine simalar to max-ot training. however about a year ago I decided to try HIT style routines and( because so many say it's the best way). over the past year I have tried many different hit style routines, different frequencies, very slow negatives(which just left me week as hell) all based on very low volume and balls to the wall effort and failure failure failure.
I have found that failure on every set(even though volume is very low) leaves me feeling very tired and un motivated in the gym. also the incredible pumps where lost. training HIT style I have not made any real gains in mass or strength. howevr, I have not stuck with any real routine in the last year for a fair amount of time. but it is hard to continue with a routine that leaves you feeling like your about to fall asleep in the gym because the motivation is lost.
I don't think going to failure( all the time) is best for me and certainly not nessessary to make gains. I do believel that strength and mass gains are the result of increased workload whether it's through increasing reps, weight, or sets. I am just confused as to how I can implement this into a routine.
would you guys mind giving me some I deas? i would really appreciate it and value and advice and workouts you could offer.
thanks for your time and I apologize for rambling on.

BALDNAZI · Nov 10, 2003

Great post

I also would love to hear what you guys have to say on training.Im about to try some Westside Barbell techniques,not all but some of the benching ideas,just to switch up the boring training I have been doing.

Please list some great training ideas,my workouts are boring and its time to start bulking again......

LATS · Nov 10, 2003

thanks for the compliment.. first off you are right that failure is not needed every time you hit the gym..many people, regardless of the volume, can not got to failure because of nervous system drain ect..it truly is a persoanlly thing and each individual is different. the one thing that , in my mind, is the most important factors is OVERLOAD AND FREQUENCY..simply put, the heavier you can go with out draining your nervous and only going as intense as you can with the idea of hitting that bodypart again as soon as possible..we know from your post that failure seems to drain you.. that in turn makes it next to impossible to hit that bodypart again with any frequency.. the muscle may very well be recovered but, your nervous system is fried..trying to workout again with the nervous sytem drain will be a feeble attempt to say the least..baldnazi brings up the westside methods.. i think louie's methods speak for themselves considering he has more powerlifying champs in his gym than any other ...does louie belive in high intensity (hit) training?? no. he very rarely belives in training to failure..so, we need to stimulate growth and just enough so that we can hit that bodypart again as soon as possible..hit does not allow that..i also suffer from going to failure and feeling drained all the time.. i basically could not hit that bodypart again for a week or a little more.so i was taking two steps forward and one step back..so lets say we are going to hit chest delts and tris.. (this is just an example) i would start off with two chest movements that you prefer..do not get stuck in the belief that one is better than the other.. if you hate to bench and do not feel it in your pecs than do not do them ..period. i would keep isolation exercises to a minimum..so lets say dumbell bench and hammer incline press..i would recommend two sets of the dumbell press and two sets of the hammer press..pick a weight that allows you to "fail" at about 7-8 reps.. now, stop short about one rep short of that .. take as much time as you need between sets to be able to handle the most weight you can..now move on to the delts..pick a press movement..two sets.. the same way you did the chest presses..stop one rep short of failure.. now side laterals.. two sets. the same as above.. now tris..i like dips but, if you feel too drained to do them properly then pick a movement that you like.. does not matter.. two sets the same way.. now GO HOME AND EAT.. hit back the same way.. pick two movements and follow that with biceps for two sets.. stopping again short of failure.. end with rear delts two sets.. now, the day after back take that day off.. after that day off train legs.. pick two quad movements two sets, hamstrings two movements, calves two movements..now the next day..TAKE IT OFF.. WHEN YOU COME BACK, TRAIN pecs delts, tris again.. keep a log of your weights.. try to add a rep each time..again stopping short of failure. when you can hit that magic 8 reps... add 10 pounds and start over.. keep on the same movements for 6-8 weeks to be able to monitor your progress..again, this will enable youto hit that bodypart more frquentely and not have the nervous system drain..in regards to the reps.. do not do the negative too slow.. 2-3 seconds is enough.. just good and controlled.. make sure to keep the dsame rep pace each repregardless ofhow tired you are getting.. this is the only way to keep a accurate gauge of your progress..i will post more tomorrow and give a example of other routines.. right now, i must go to bed..i can barely type lol

hopefully magoo will see this and post.. we basically have the same dna when it comes to training but, we, like you , are constantly experimenting..

DIEZEL666 · Nov 10, 2003

Bump for Magoo.

stomper1 · Nov 10, 2003

LATS,
thank for taking the time to write out so much. I agree that heavy is the way to achieve size and certainly strength. and it is nice to hear someone with such an extensive background in training and bodybuilding in general advocate that failure simply is not essentail to gains and that it is still very possible to lift heavy (and intense) without taking the set to the point of failure. I think alot of guys feel that if they are not training to failure than their workout are somehow no longer very intense, but that is simply just not true. I really like what you said about frequency, it only makes sence. the more times you can stimulate growth, the more growth you'll experience assuming rest and recovery are in place.
I liked the routine you outlined and I would very much like to see more whenever you find the time.
and again.....BUMP for lats and magoo.
(these guys can't say enough in my opinion)

BALDNAZI · Nov 10, 2003

REVOLUTIONARY

You do realize that everything you wrote Lats goes against everything I believe in? Haha,I know of only one way to train and that is total destruction.I want to leave the gym knowing I WORKED and people respect my partner and me cause we do just that.

I go to failure pretty much every set,and add forced reps when I can.My negatives are super slow on most compound movements.It just feels like the right way to train. I find it impossible to train chest THEN delts,or back and bi's for example.I like to give each bodypart its own focus.So after my experiment of 3 days a week training Im back to 4 a week.

What you are saying makes so much sense though.And there is a little voice in my head saying to try it,along with the other voices,but thats a nother story

. So is this the way to train on cycle or off?I always up the intensity/insanity when Im ON.

The next 6 months I want to pack on ALOT of size.I want to go from 260 to as far up as possible,280 is a good number,290 is better.I respect your opinions alot,and thank you for taking the time to answer stompers post.........

Trulyhuge · Nov 10, 2003

Stomper,
I am a disciple of LATS and his training! The man has been with me throughout most of my training days and has helped me tremendously! I did what most people do...high volume training. I grew a little but a couple of years ago my gains came to a very solid halt! I had no idea why I had stopped growing and stopped getting stronger? Then I was advised to start up HIT and go for the stimulation/then move on/then eat/then grow idea! I can't tell you how implemented in my brain LATS' idea of "breaking down the muscle fibers and then move on to the next thing." He stressed why keep breaking down the muscle tissue, it's counterproductive and useless! I now, whether on or off, go as simple and as direct as possible. No complicated methods. I prefer a mon/wed/fri training week, with it being chest/delts/tri's, legs, back/bi's. I feel more refreshed and ready for each workout! I would give it a go.

TH

MAXM · Nov 10, 2003

Bump

I am real curious who else has tried this type of training method? I too am at a sticking point and want to change things up!

JETHRO TULL · Nov 10, 2003

LATS....GOOD POST.

I HAVE TROUBLE WITH RECOVERY EVEN WHEN I AM 'ENHANCED' WITH MY PROHORMONES! HAHAHA.....KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

MikeS · Nov 10, 2003

I agree with some of those ideas, LATS. And incorrporated some of BNs ideas too.
I like low sets, of which only 1-2 are failure-but dead failure with forced reps. Lots of rest between heavy sets and compound excercises. I want to push the most weight on those heavy sets for overload there, not on my light warmup sets. I do warms with light weight for low (4-6) reps so not to exhaust myself for my later heavy sets.

stomper1 · Nov 10, 2003

trulyhuge,
would you mind posting the specifics of your workout?
I am really interested in learning more about how you and lats train.
this is great discussion guys. thanks for all who have posted

Trulyhuge · Nov 10, 2003

well, like LATS said pick 2 excercises per bodypart. so for monday here's something I would do..
chest: 10 degree incline db presses, incline hammer presses, 2 sets apeice, 7-8 reps
shoulders: some pressing movement, side laterals, shrugs, same sets and reps
tri's: overhead db extensions, pressdowns..same set/reps scheme

legs: presses, hacks, deads, curls, toe presses on leg press, calf raises..for quads i do 12-15 reps and my legs respond better, hammies i do 8-10 reps.

Back: chins, barbell rows, rear delt raises, hyperextensions..2 sets apeice, 7-8 reps
bi's: db curls, hammer precher curls..2 sets, 7-8 reps.

I like this routine. I do use DOGGCRAP'S routine once in a while for a change but this is pretty much the norm. Hope this helps!

TH

LATS · Nov 10, 2003

i think what most people must realize is that not all people are going to respond alike to the same kind of stimuli.. mikes can go to failure and he is no worse for it..jethro, on the other hand, feels drained from going to failure.. IT IS WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH YOUR BODY!! the premise is the same.. create enough fiber/cellular damage to cause a response, then recup from that stimuli.. the recup part is the hardest part to get down..most of the magazines out today talk of "intensity" and "fury" ect.. it is great to sell magazines.. it inspires most of us to hit the weights with all we have...unfortunately alot of times the intensity we apply comes back to smack us in the face..you can not force growth.. trying to will eventually lead to burnout for most trainers..you must coax it along..also remember that if you leave the gym absolutely drained...WHAT THE HELL WILL YOU RECUP WITH?? if all energy levels are shot, good luck at a recuperation for the next days training..unless you are fortunate enough to be able to just go home and lay down for the rest of the day and eat.. you will not be able to recup.. welcome to the real world lol most of us do not have that type of life..
looking at the pros train, we are looking at genetic freaks who woyuld be able to get enough protein from tree bark lol.. these guys are special.. the cream of the crop as far as genetics go..dorian, the genetic freak and hero for most of us, trained to failure and balls to the wall.. he had many olympia titles to prove his technique worked.. he alos had many injuries that eventually ended his career..torn tricep, torn hip, torn quad, torn bicep, bad shoulder problems and severly strained lat... no thanks..but, he recuped from his workouts for the most part...NoW LETS LOOK AT RONNIE!! ronnie is absolutely the bigest genetic freak that ever lived.. 265 pounds of shredded mass.. he is able to perform heavy workouts at 12 sets a bodypart twice a week while ven most of his competitors would burn out at that rate... he is the lucky one who can recup and hit it again 4 days later// npo problem.. but, the premise is the same ..OVERLOAD AND FREQUENCY..that is what makes ronnie the greatest one .. his ability to train harder than most and more frequent..in other words.. genetics.
but, even the trainers that have less ability to recover from nervous system strain, can still modify their workouts to include the two components of overload and frequency.. it will take some experimenting to find just the right amount of intensity and volume to be able to hit that bodypart 72-96 hours later..one of the most productive workouts i have ever personally done was not a typical "bodybuilding" workout.. i trained three days a week and this is basically how it went: monday- upper body 3 sets of 10 degree incline dumbell press 5-8 reps, military press 3 sets 5-8 reps, weighted dips 2-3 sets 5-8 reps, barbell rows 3 sets 5-8 reps, chins 2 sets tuesday : rest weds: lower body one legged leg press 3-4 sets 12 -15 reps, stiff legged deads, calf raise on leg press 2-3 sets.. thurs: rest fri : upper body again but, a change of exercises. bench press 3-4 sets 5-8 reps, stading one arm db press 3 sets 8-10 reps, close grip bench 2-3 sets of 5-8 reps, one arm db row 3 sets of 5-8 reps, close grip chins, 2-3 sets 5-8 reps...sat-sun off. when monday comes around we start lower body again.. this aloows for each bodypart to be trained 3 times in 10 days.. i am not a big beliver in arm work and only do direct arm work about twice a month.. being as how they gety a beating every upper body day..this keeps them from being overtrained and when the arms are fatigued the rest of your upper body work will greatly diminish poundage wise..
as far as trulyhuges workout.. it is really pretty simple. truly huge can take a beating and not be too drained with cns drain..so we just strain in low volume and to failure..the big diffrernce is when he is using supplements or nots.. when we are supplemented, we have him do a basic "dorian" type workout.. he might throw in some doggcrapp type training to break up the boredom.. now, when we are not supplemented we have to adjust things..an example would be that when we are clear of the androgens, our cortisol levels are pretty high. very bad..we then drop the workouts to three days a week and do not train to failure but, stop about one rep short.. we try to use the same poundage as when supplemented just not as intense.. even if we lose a rep or two we still rty to use close to the same poundage.. having more rest days diffinitely helps.. the reasoning is this.. if truly huge gains 12 pounds when supplemented and training.. we now need to try and keep as much of that as possible.. so tyhe who recovery phase is strictly trying to keep poundage high and to just do enough to keep the gains of the supllemented phase.. we can not expect to gain more bodyweight while we are in tyhe recovery phase so, we are strictly doing damage control and trying to maintain the gains we made..and hold them until another supplement phase is started..STIMULATING GROWTH IS NOT HARD.. ALLOWING IT TO GROW IS THE TOUGH PART.. and we need all the energy we can for that growth to happen.. and that means nervous system recovery..

training all out to failure does not allow that with a vast number of individuals..

JETHRO TULL · Nov 11, 2003

THANKS FOR POSTING THAT........

THING IS.....WE ALL BUY INTO THAT INTENSITY HARDCORE THING....HECK, I LOVE TO GET IN THERE AND KICK SOME ASS! TROUBLE IS I PAY FOR IT AND MY PROGRESS SLOWS AND THEN COMES TO A GRINDING HALT. USUALLY I GET A SORE THROAT AND MY LIFTS GO DOWN AS WELL. SOMETIMES WHEN I FORCE MYSELF TO DO WHAT I CALL 'LAZY' WORKOUTS I GET BIGGER, HARDER, MORE FULL, AND STRONGER. EXAMPLE OF ONE OF THESE THAT WORKS GREAT .....GOES LIKE THIS....BARBELL INCLINES, UPRIGHT ROWS, TRICEP PUSHDOWNS.....4SETS EACH....THING IS....YOU START GETTING BIGGER, STRONGER...SHIT STARTS WORKING SO WELL THAT YOU END UP LETTING MORE EXECISES CREEP IN THERE AND YOU END UP DOING A TON OF WORK AGAIN! HAHAHA.........I GUESS I AM ONE OF THOSE MORONS WHO KEEPS LEARNING THE SAME LESSONS OVER AND OVER AGAIN. ITS GOOD TO HAVE SOME WRITE A POST LIKE THOSE ABOVE SO YOU KNOW THAT YOU AREN'T CRAZY!

DIEZEL666 · Nov 11, 2003

LATS

Do you ever use pre-exhaustion to fatigue the muscle and allow you to hit your rep ranges easier? Thanks.

LATS · Nov 11, 2003

no.. to be honest, i hate the pre exhaust thing.. usually people run out of cardio steam before truly exhausting the muscle..plus, i have seen studies were the target muscle was not activated like it should have been when the compound movement initiated..now, if one were to open up a workout with a isolation movement to fully warmup the targeted muscle..i can see no real harm in that.. but, the principal of pre exhaust has never appealed to me.. and after reading the studies , i ahve become more bias toward them ...i have always prefered straight sets.. if i can not hit a targeted rep range.. i usually do not worry about it.. i will adjust the weight the next time..i guess i could see pre exhaust as a "boredom breaker" but, i just prefer to keep it simple.. use heavy weight and make adjustments were needed..

stomper1 · Nov 12, 2003

hey jethro,
I hear ya man. it's hard as hell to stick with a routing cause your always thinking "WOW" if this works! maybe I should add this or that"
and BAM! as soon as you add more lifts or sets all progress hults.
bodybuilding is one big F***in mund game.....but I love it

stomper1 · Nov 12, 2003

Lats,
I know everyone is different when it comes to what training will work for them. But I want to begin one of the routines you outlined in your posts. I realize you know little about me as a bodybuilder but I would like to know which routine you would suggest I might want to attempt first.

#1
i would recommend two sets of the dumbell press and two sets of the hammer press..pick a weight that allows you to "fail" at about 7-8 reps.. now, stop short about one rep short of that .. take as much time as you need between sets to be able to handle the most weight you can..now move on to the delts..pick a press movement..two sets.. the same way you did the chest presses..stop one rep short of failure.. now side laterals.. two sets. the same as above.. now tris..i like dips but, if you feel too drained to do them properly then pick a movement that you like.. does not matter.. two sets the same way.. now GO HOME AND EAT.. hit back the same way.. pick two movements and follow that with biceps for two sets.. stopping again short of failure.. end with rear delts two sets.. now, the day after back take that day off.. after that day off train legs.. pick two quad movements two sets, hamstrings two movements, calves two movements..now the next day..TAKE IT OFF..
(The only thing is with this routine I would adjust the frequency so that I only hit each muscle one time in seven days-M-W-F, simply because I doubt I could recover fast enough to train back to back days)

#2
i trained three days a week and this is basically how it went: monday- upper body 3 sets of 10 degree incline dumbell press 5-8 reps, military press 3 sets 5-8 reps, weighted dips 2-3 sets 5-8 reps, barbell rows 3 sets 5-8 reps, chins 2 sets tuesday : rest weds: lower body one legged leg press 3-4 sets 12 -15 reps, stiff legged deads, calf raise on leg press 2-3 sets.. thurs: rest fri : upper body again but, a change of exercises. bench press 3-4 sets 5-8 reps, stading one arm db press 3 sets 8-10 reps, close grip bench 2-3 sets of 5-8 reps, one arm db row 3 sets of 5-8 reps, close grip chins, 2-3 sets 5-8 reps...sat-sun off. when monday comes around we start lower body again.

Just curious as to what you would reccomend I start with. I am very excited to do either one.

LATS · Nov 12, 2003

personally, i would do routine #2 for about 6 weeks..i take it from your post that you are a little "fried" and this is more of a basic program that will let ya recup a little.. then switch to the routine #1 for 6 weeks..just try to add a rep each workout.. "holding back" always leaves a little something in the tank for the next workout.. just keep a log of what you started with and where you end up to monitor the progress.. this will give ya a better starting point from which to start when you go back to that routine again..keep me posted...