Lowering/pull testosterone vs. letrozole pre contest

[Parabolic33]

Looking for hear from coaches and competitors or Just people who’ve done both methods one or the other what they noticed cosmetically.

My general perception would be that ultimately, at the end of the day, the amount of serum estradiol is what’s going to control how the skin looks and holds water. Assuming the athlete is sufficiently lean. So my guess is that both of these would lead to the same outcome.

In general, I do not seem to experience much cosmetic difference between different drugs. Only how my body’s water dynamics response to food/carb/ electrolyte intake in response to high vs lower estrogen state.

However I’ve also heard from experienced people that testosterone itself causes bloating independent of the aromatization. Unless we are talking like very negligible levels.

Can anyone show me examples or teach me why my way of thinking is wrong and change my mind ?

Because I’d expect pulling test and reaching a single digit e2 would have the same effect as keeping test in and using strong Ai like letro and primo to achieve that same levels.

I’ve yet to experience much significant cosmetic difference between all these different drugs outside of how they affect androgen: estrogen ratio. Am I wrong or missing something ?

 

[luki7788]

if you want to be as dry as possible, take out the test and gh 10-7 days before the competition - if you lack fullness, leave both

the test itself will cause some water retention because it retains minerals very strongly even when estradiol is very low

 

[Parabolic33]

if you want to be as dry as possible, take out the test and gh 10-7 days before the competition - if you lack fullness, leave both

the test itself will cause some water retention because it retains minerals very strongly even when estradiol is very low

Awesome answer. Thanks that’s exactly what I was looking to hear.

I’ve actually heard from Vigorous Steve in a video that he and other people he knows will remove Tren too because of it keeping the skin thicker also. The idea behind it is that through its PR activity it increases collagen synthesis in the skin. And Tren is a trade off between skin being paper paper thin vs holding a bit more size while very lean.

Do you think this is unique to test that holds water independent of estrogen?

Since I’ve also heard from some that running nandrolone only is actually a dry full look and the perception behind nandrolone being a wet drug is through it increasing e2 conversion of testosterone.

 

[luki7788]

Awesome answer. Thanks that’s exactly what I was looking to hear.

I’ve actually heard from Vigorous Steve in a video that he and other people he knows will remove Tren too because of it keeping the skin thicker also. The idea behind it is that through its PR activity it increases collagen synthesis in the skin. And Tren is a trade off between skin being paper paper thin vs holding a bit more size while very lean.

Do you think this is unique to test that holds water independent of estrogen?

Since I’ve also heard from some that running nandrolone only is actually a dry full look and the perception behind nandrolone being a wet drug is through it increasing e2 conversion of testosterone.

I don't think you should listen to everything Vigorous Steve says

 

[bbxtreme]

I’ve prepped both ways for shows. I personally liked how I looked and felt better running test prop straight through. But I did have to use a bit more diuretics.

What @luki7788 said is spot on with the rest. If you’re lean enough it’s not going to make a huge difference either way. Just depends on the look and class you’re competing in. I prefer full and dry. But there are other ways to achieve it with compounds as well.

Hell Kevin Levrone used to run test and all long acting esters straight through show day.

Gauge how you respond and your mental state both ways as this really matters IMO those last two weeks.

 

[Parabolic33]

I don't think you should listen to everything Vigorous Steve says

Yea, for sure. I don’t listen to everything or anything most people say. But whenever it’s somebody with Atleast some experience it always does cause me to atleast wonder about why he would say something like that. True or not, it makes me curious at least.

What I mean, is that it isn’t my default to say “bs” to new things I’ve never heard even if they don’t make sense on the surface.

I don’t take them at face value either.

 

[Parabolic33]

I’ve prepped both ways for shows. I personally liked how I looked and felt better running test prop straight through. But I did have to use a bit more diuretics.

What @luki7788 said is spot on with the rest. If you’re lean enough it’s not going to make a huge difference either way. Just depends on the look and class you’re competing in. I prefer full and dry. But there are other ways to achieve it with compounds as well.

Hell Kevin Levrone used to run test and all long acting esters straight through show day.

Gauge how you respond and your mental state both ways as this really matters IMO those last two weeks.

yea agreed for sure that being actually lean makes the most difference.

For me up to this point, either it’s how my body responds in a unique way, im not experienced enough in a cutting context yet to have spent a long enough time being lean with various combos to notice a difference.

I really don’t know for sure, I don’t claim either way, but this is what I’ve maybe noticed as somebody who seemingly only responds to different combinations from a low/high e2 standpoint, and dose standpoint. More dose more fullness, more weight. More e2, more weight more fullness to a point then it becomes easier to get watery. Low E2 can still get watery, but it’s more from looking flat( if not lean) if lean low e2 I look just flat and more stringy.

However I’ve never noticed that I look different on high test, vs test/ deca, Deca only (with IM estradiol to sustain e2 at the same level as if I had in a test base).

I think this also has to do with my lack of time spent being on peds and also that my physique from a size and bodyfat perspective is always changing since I’ve either been full Bulking or full cutting the entire time I’ve been on. There’s never been a point where I’ve been at a steady size/maintaining level where I’ve brought in different combinations.

So maybe me getting fat, I attributed to just being fatter over the course of an off-season and reaching that 16-20% bodyfat range where the abs are starting to blur over unless I’m flexing. But possibly I would have looked less or more bloated if running something else.

 

[bbxtreme]

yea agreed for sure that being actually lean makes the most difference.

For me up to this point, either it’s how my body responds in a unique way, im not experienced enough in a cutting context yet to have spent a long enough time being lean with various combos to notice a difference.

I really don’t know for sure, I don’t claim either way, but this is what I’ve maybe noticed as somebody who seemingly only responds to different combinations from a low/high e2 standpoint, and dose standpoint. More dose more fullness, more weight. More e2, more weight more fullness to a point then it becomes easier to get watery. Low E2 can still get watery, but it’s more from looking flat( if not lean) if lean low e2 I look just flat and more stringy.

However I’ve never noticed that I look different on high test, vs test/ deca, Deca only (with IM estradiol to sustain e2 at the same level as if I had in a test base).

I think this also has to do with my lack of time spent being on peds and also that my physique from a size and bodyfat perspective is always changing since I’ve either been full Bulking or full cutting the entire time I’ve been on. There’s never been a point where I’ve been at a steady size/maintaining level where I’ve brought in different combinations.

So maybe me getting fat, I attributed to just being fatter over the course of an off-season and reaching that 16-20% bodyfat range where the abs are starting to blur over unless I’m flexing. But possibly I would have looked less or more bloated if running something else.

It’s all about finding the right balance with E2 IMO. Which is where blood work comes in. I personally only do Aromosin low in progressive phase and during prep and cutting aromosin standard dosage and tomoxifen. You don’t want to tank it either.

But different compounds will aromatize differently- test, Deca, and tren. And orals when in prep. So you tailor it off what you’re taking, the amount and the goal.

In terms of compounds during a prep- once lean enough you will absolutely see a difference cosmetic wise with different compounds. Hence most go from NPP to Masteron… Primo to Tren and so on. Just rough examples.

You can look “good” either way, but getting on stage is about looking “great” and certain compounds make that difference. Test is the foundation of it all IMO so you have to get lean enough to see what works best for you in regards to it.

 

[Parabolic33]

It’s all about finding the right balance with E2 IMO. Which is where blood work comes in. I personally only do Aromosin low in progressive phase and during prep and cutting aromosin standard dosage and tomoxifen. You don’t want to tank it either.

But different compounds will aromatize differently- test, Deca, and tren. And orals when in prep. So you tailor it off what you’re taking, the amount and the goal.

In terms of compounds during a prep- once lean enough you will absolutely see a difference cosmetic wise with different compounds. Hence most go from NPP to Masteron… Primo to Tren and so on. Just rough examples.

You can look “good” either way, but getting on stage is about looking “great” and certain compounds make that difference. Test is the foundation of it all IMO so you have to get lean enough to see what works best for you in regards to it.

Yea I’m still running around with different things. I have to say winstrol either injectable suspension or sublingual capsules made the only difference I could tell. Even without getting much leaner over a week from week 5 of cutting to week6 there was a huge change to how my skin layed on the muscle and my vascularity that was already there, appeared even closer to the skin.

I added masteron in after this at 420mg per week and it didn’t seem have any further cosmetic effect other than just I kept getting leaner, so there was that.

So I pulled the masteron since the total dose was getting High, and with that I didn’t notice anything by removing it either.

Tren has been in since week 1 which was early but I came out lowering calories aggressive and it was a low dose at first.

 

[bbxtreme]

Yea I’m still running around with different things. I have to say winstrol either injectable suspension or sublingual capsules made the only difference I could tell. Even without getting much leaner over a week from week 5 of cutting to week6 there was a huge change to how my skin layed on the muscle and my vascularity that was already there, appeared even closer to the skin.

I added masteron in after this at 420mg per week and it didn’t seem have any further cosmetic effect other than just I kept getting leaner, so there was that.

So I pulled the masteron since the total dose was getting High, and with that I didn’t notice anything by removing it either.

Tren has been in since week 1 which was early but I came out lowering calories aggressive and it was a low dose at first.

What are your stats? 425mg weekly of Masteron is low. It really shines when you’re super lean for that hard/dry look when stacked with test and tren.

But orals are going to give you the biggest cosmetic change. Winstrol for sure. And if you have digestive issues using an oil based injectable really shines and won’t be painful with PIP. But you’ll have the other sides that come with that like tighter muscles and joint pain so have to watch training intensity.

Either way do what works best for you. NPP or Primo won’t cause a lot of water retention so if they work better for you than Masteron stick with that. Everyone responds differently.

 

[Parabolic33]

What are your stats? 425mg weekly of Masteron is low. It really shines when you’re super lean for that hard/dry look when stacked with test and tren.

But orals are going to give you the biggest cosmetic change. Winstrol for sure. And if you have digestive issues using an oil based injectable really shines and won’t be painful with PIP. But you’ll have the other sides that come with that like tighter muscles and joint pain so have to watch training intensity.

Either way do what works best for you. NPP or Primo won’t cause a lot of water retention so if they work better for you than Masteron stick with that. Everyone responds differently.

I’m 5’10 fluctuating between 183-189am/pm weight at the final stage of dieting, I’ve been in a deficit for the last 15 days straight though without having been within 700 calories from my approximate maintenance calories.

My glutes were the last thing to show striations. Started to show real good on November 3rd is when I first got good noticeable striations even at the very bottom cheek part of my glutes. But are now actually like dry striated. The skin could maybe be tighter but the striations are defined, my skin is still a bit thick. My e2 is still between 90-150pg/ml.it’s too high.

Made adjustment but I’m waiting on a new test results to be sent back to me within the next week. So it’s making me Hold water. But i have to be somewhere close to 5% now I’d guess.

I was on 1575 EQ, 280 tren, and 5.6mg estradiol valerate IM ( yes I know it’s weird) for the first 10 weeks of this cut.

Then dropped EQ injections for a week, resumed at 1250 EQ, 560Tren e, 350 wisntrol.

Shortly after added 420 masteron. Then pulled after 2 more weeks since I didn’t notice much and the dose was getting cray.

Then just because, I don’t get sides from tren besides sweating at night, for the last 2 weeks I bumped Tren e to 980mg, wisntrol to 75mg daily, and just 7 days ago added in 30 Halotestin sublingual.

hgh has been at 9iu per day now 16iu the last few weeks, Lantus 21 iu pre bed since the start. Recently added 50mcg t3, when my fT3 dropped a bit( prob didn’t need it) 60mcg clen,

3300 calories Monday Tuesday, 2800 calories Thursday Friday Saturday, 3000 calories Sunday and Wednesday.

 

[bbxtreme]

I’m 5’10 fluctuating between 183-189am/pm weight at the final stage of dieting, I’ve been in a deficit for the last 15 days straight though without having been within 700 calories from my approximate maintenance calories.

My glutes were the last thing to show striations. Started to show real good on November 3rd is when I first got good noticeable striations even at the very bottom cheek part of my glutes. But are now actually like dry striated. The skin could maybe be tighter but the striations are defined, my skin is still a bit thick. My e2 is still between 90-150pg/ml.it’s too high.

Made adjustment but I’m waiting on a new test results to be sent back to me within the next week. So it’s making me Hold water. But i have to be somewhere close to 5% now I’d guess.

I was on 1575 EQ, 280 tren, and 5.6mg estradiol valerate IM ( yes I know it’s weird) for the first 10 weeks of this cut.

Then dropped EQ injections for a week, resumed at 1250 EQ, 560Tren e, 350 wisntrol.

Shortly after added 420 masteron. Then pulled after 2 more weeks since I didn’t notice much and the dose was getting cray.

Then just because, I don’t get sides from tren besides sweating at night, for the last 2 weeks I bumped Tren e to 980mg, wisntrol to 75mg daily, and just 7 days ago added in 30 Halotestin sublingual.

hgh has been at 9iu per day now 16iu the last few weeks, Lantus 21 iu pre bed since the start. Recently added 50mcg t3, when my fT3 dropped a bit( prob didn’t need it) 60mcg clen,

3300 calories Monday Tuesday, 2800 calories Thursday Friday Saturday, 3000 calories Sunday and Wednesday.

So much to unpack with this. IMO way too much gear for your stats and don’t see your Test intake weekly.

I know you like doing the estrogen but I would cut that. Drop the T3 as you’re messing with fire at your stats and the thyroid.

Trust me, I get it as in my 20’s I was the same way chasing what I thought was the answers or edge.

But you don’t need that much gear or so many changes at your stats.

This is likely the last thing you want to hear, but I would run a fresh set of blood work and revamp your entire plan. Making diet, training and sleep/recovery the foundation then going to the foundational staples of gear.

At your size you should NOT even be considering lantus or using it IMO. This is how guys hit their ceiling too quickly IMO.

You have tons of potential and have built a great foundation, but if me I would hit the reset button and work with a good coach to help you lay the foundation or use this forum to help you. There’s no secrets out there- trust me.

Again, I’m not hating. Only trying to share some wisdom as this is a long play with bodybuilding.

 

[Parabolic33]

So much to unpack with this. IMO way too much gear for your stats and don’t see your Test intake weekly.

I know you like doing the estrogen but I would cut that. Drop the T3 as you’re messing with fire at your stats and the thyroid.

Trust me, I get it as in my 20’s I was the same way chasing what I thought was the answers or edge.

But you don’t need that much gear or so many changes at your stats.

This is likely the last thing you want to hear, but I would run a fresh set of blood work and revamp your entire plan. Making diet, training and sleep/recovery the foundation then going to the foundational staples of gear.

At your size you should NOT even be considering lantus or using it IMO. This is how guys hit their ceiling too quickly IMO.

You have tons of potential and have built a great foundation, but if me I would hit the reset button and work with a good coach to help you lay the foundation or use this forum to help you. There’s no secrets out there- trust me.

Again, I’m not hating. Only trying to share some wisdom as this is a long play with bodybuilding.

Yea man i hear you. Also I’m turning 31. So not in my 20s but not that it matters. My goal is to blast my face off as hard as I can without seriously hurting myself with the goal of getting as big as I can get by the age of 36.

When I lost the business I dropped out of medical school for that I ran from 2013-2022 I needed something to fill my time and decided to do nothing but life like a full time bodybuilder. I haven’t done anything else in the last 2 years since I’ve started.

So diet, sleep etc all couldn’t be more dialed. As in I do experiments to see if things work better. But when I have a plan, there isn’t deviation from it.

The gear being too high I’d prob agree with. Right now it probably is for sure. I’m comming down in dose to rebound soon and I’m going to hold it there lower for this comming bulk. This is when I will evaluate lower dosing to see if I need to indeed push it. You have to think I was at about 60% of the total dose for all but the last 3-4 weeks. So I’m not worried about 4 weeks of being on too high of a dose poisoning me and leaving me doomed to run endlessly higher and higher doses till I stall out at 220lb 5% bf on 5 grams of gear.

In terms of coaches, I know it sounds arrogant to say, but every thing that coaches don’t agree on or variable that’s still not yet known that some coach knows, I’m in the process of trying to figure out for myself. Not for results but because that’s the part I enjoy the most. In terms of the basics, the tried and true methods that any coach would tell me I already know all of that and have my own clients already. Mostly natty guys and people with weird medical where they go to docs and they say “umm here’s some ssris… it’s probably that” lol

But nah man thank you for looking out. I do appreciate it. It’s hard to convey my tone over this text. But I’m really
Listening and hearing you out.

This is not me saying I know everything or even more than most, I’m just saying the basics, when you’ve done nothing but watch and listen and read bodybuilding content from high level guys for the last 3 years. Picking up the basics isn’t exactly rocket science. Everything has already been said before for the most part.

I know how to bulk effectively and I know how to get shredded. There isn’t really much more to it than that.

 

[Parabolic33]

So much to unpack with this. IMO way too much gear for your stats and don’t see your Test intake weekly.

I know you like doing the estrogen but I would cut that. Drop the T3 as you’re messing with fire at your stats and the thyroid.

Trust me, I get it as in my 20’s I was the same way chasing what I thought was the answers or edge.

But you don’t need that much gear or so many changes at your stats.

This is likely the last thing you want to hear, but I would run a fresh set of blood work and revamp your entire plan. Making diet, training and sleep/recovery the foundation then going to the foundational staples of gear.

At your size you should NOT even be considering lantus or using it IMO. This is how guys hit their ceiling too quickly IMO.

You have tons of potential and have built a great foundation, but if me I would hit the reset button and work with a good coach to help you lay the foundation or use this forum to help you. There’s no secrets out there- trust me.

Again, I’m not hating. Only trying to share some wisdom as this is a long play with bodybuilding.

Also lmao, yea I’m not using test right now. I haven’t had any test in my protocol for 4 months now. And the last year I haven’t used more than 87.5mg test e per week.

You can bet your ass I’m going out swinging my exogenous e2 protocol bro. Pry it from my cold dead fingers. I will die on this hill. Lol. I’m not kidding.
But nah, seriously, I do wanna finish up this experiment though and have a specific end result I’m trying to see what happens. If I don’t finish it, it’s going to haunt me even if In the end it’s all for nothing but inferior results.

I’d be fine with just knowing what’s at the end. I’ve invested the last 1.5 years into it. So.


Curious on the Lantus thing though, any example you can share ? Like even just anecdotes? I’m legit interested in that. Where the dudes used Lantus too soon and stopped growing ?

 

[Parabolic33]

So much to unpack with this. IMO way too much gear for your stats and don’t see your Test intake weekly.

I know you like doing the estrogen but I would cut that. Drop the T3 as you’re messing with fire at your stats and the thyroid.

Trust me, I get it as in my 20’s I was the same way chasing what I thought was the answers or edge.

But you don’t need that much gear or so many changes at your stats.

This is likely the last thing you want to hear, but I would run a fresh set of blood work and revamp your entire plan. Making diet, training and sleep/recovery the foundation then going to the foundational staples of gear.

At your size you should NOT even be considering lantus or using it IMO. This is how guys hit their ceiling too quickly IMO.

You have tons of potential and have built a great foundation, but if me I would hit the reset button and work with a good coach to help you lay the foundation or use this forum to help you. There’s no secrets out there- trust me.

Again, I’m not hating. Only trying to share some wisdom as this is a long play with bodybuilding.

One other thing too. I don’t think being 5’10 199-205 lb once I’m carbed up and not starving myself and dehydrated is anything too small of stats to be touching 2 grams of gear in a “pre contest scenario” for the last few weeks.maybe I’m dead wrong here

 

[Parabolic33]

So much to unpack with this. IMO way too much gear for your stats and don’t see your Test intake weekly.

I know you like doing the estrogen but I would cut that. Drop the T3 as you’re messing with fire at your stats and the thyroid.

Trust me, I get it as in my 20’s I was the same way chasing what I thought was the answers or edge.

But you don’t need that much gear or so many changes at your stats.

This is likely the last thing you want to hear, but I would run a fresh set of blood work and revamp your entire plan. Making diet, training and sleep/recovery the foundation then going to the foundational staples of gear.

At your size you should NOT even be considering lantus or using it IMO. This is how guys hit their ceiling too quickly IMO.

You have tons of potential and have built a great foundation, but if me I would hit the reset button and work with a good coach to help you lay the foundation or use this forum to help you. There’s no secrets out there- trust me.

Again, I’m not hating. Only trying to share some wisdom as this is a long play with bodybuilding.

I legit just pulled new bloods less than a week ago

 

[bbxtreme]

I legit just pulled new bloods less than a week ago

One other thing too. I don’t think being 5’10 199-205 lb once I’m carbed up and not starving myself and dehydrated is anything too small of stats to be touching 2 grams of gear in a “pre contest scenario” for the last few weeks.maybe I’m dead wrong here

See how the labs come back and feel free to PM them to me. I’m happy to give any insight.

Are you not doing any test in that cycle?
Are you actually doing a show or just cutting?

If not competing the T3, lantus and choice of gear is not all what I would be doing. You’re going to cause some long term imbalances and issues IMO.

I don’t want to give unsolicited advice or input but feel free to share your full breakdown with me if you want or in a PM.

 

[bbxtreme]

Also lmao, yea I’m not using test right now. I haven’t had any test in my protocol for 4 months now. And the last year I haven’t used more than 87.5mg test e per week.

You can bet your ass I’m going out swinging my exogenous e2 protocol bro. Pry it from my cold dead fingers. I will die on this hill. Lol. I’m not kidding.
But nah, seriously, I do wanna finish up this experiment though and have a specific end result I’m trying to see what happens. If I don’t finish it, it’s going to haunt me even if In the end it’s all for nothing but inferior results.

I’d be fine with just knowing what’s at the end. I’ve invested the last 1.5 years into it. So.


Curious on the Lantus thing though, any example you can share ? Like even just anecdotes? I’m legit interested in that. Where the dudes used Lantus too soon and stopped growing ?

Totally missed this response on here earlier.

Lantus- you are using lantus which is a long acting insulin. In layman’s terms you are telling your body and pancreas that it no longer needs to make its own insulin anymore. This is why you should use humalog to compliment what your body produces for as long as possible. And when you get to that point. Jumping straight to lantus is a fast track to becoming a type 3 diabetic as they call it now. Do you really want to be insulin dependent the rest of your life over trying to test something? Don’t die on that hill. if you were pushing 280 at your height that’s a different discussion. You’re nowhere near making a living as a pro competing at 250-280 pounds.

Not using test, but high amounts of EQ and Tren… well that’s just irresponsible IMO. No disrespect, but what are you even trying to prove? That every bodybuilder, coach and medical professional now for decades have gotten it wrong? You have high estrogen and are taking estrogen while taking compounds that increase estrogen and neglecting the foundational male hormone that sits under it all- Testosterone.

Physiologically and mentally you are going to hit a wall and pay the price IMO if you keep going down this path. And it will be a b**** to pull out of.

I admire your passion and dedication, but I’d bet money that you could go so much further doing this the responsible way and right way.

Don’t worry, I have no dog in this fight and not hating. Doesn’t impact my life and I would make a terrible coach because I have no patience for it. Lol

Just trying to share some wisdom before you wreck your body as others on here have tried to do. But respect any path someone takes as it’s their life.

 

[danieltx]

Totally missed this response on here earlier.

Lantus- you are using lantus which is a long acting insulin. In layman’s terms you are telling your body and pancreas that it no longer needs to make its own insulin anymore. This is why you should use humalog to compliment what your body produces for as long as possible. And when you get to that point. Jumping straight to lantus is a fast track to becoming a type 3 diabetic as they call it now. Do you really want to be insulin dependent the rest of your life over trying to test something? Don’t die on that hill. if you were pushing 280 at your height that’s a different discussion. You’re nowhere near making a living as a pro competing at 250-280 pounds.

Using insulin doesn't make people diabetic.

I'm likely in the upper tier of guys here with how much insulin I've used and I can still clear 100-120g of carbs in 2 hours with just berberine.

That said, this guy is nuts and blew his load with PEDs way too soon which will likely limit his ceiling in bodybuilding.

 

[bbxtreme]

Using insulin doesn't make people diabetic.

I'm likely in the upper tier of guys here with how much insulin I've used and I can still clear 100-120g of carbs in 2 hours with just berberine.

That said, this guy is nuts and blew his load with PEDs way too soon which will likely limit his ceiling in bodybuilding.

Short acting won’t as I said. But if you use lantus long enough your body will stop producing as much. Especially for someone his size and at his caloric intake. I see it all the time with people.

Someone your size or Luki is a different story with your caloric intake.

This kids just gone to the extreme on all levels.