Luki Offseason - blow up arms at 3" with SYNTHEROL(road do 320lbs)

[luki7788]

This is supported by the increase to fT3 (pharmacodynamics vs. biological half-life) that peaks ~2 hr post ingestion and returns almost to baseline by ~10 hr.

<= 25 mcg is an optimal dose of T3 during dieting (to replace the decrement to fT3 induced by low energy availability). Higher doses preferentially catabolize hypertrophied skeletal muscle.

ok, but then the question is whether you can catabolize your muscles if you are on the positive kcal? I'm asking because, for example, @Swiper er used 50mcg t3 for years all year and grew normally.

I know that Dallas used huge amounts of t3 all year round, in the order of 75-150mcg all year round and this does not confirm the catabolism theory

 

[dany23x]

ok, but then the question is whether you can catabolize your muscles if you are on the positive kcal? I'm asking because, for example, @Swiper er used 50mcg t3 for years all year and grew normally.

I know that Dallas used huge amounts of t3 all year round, in the order of 75-150mcg all year round and this does not confirm the catabolism theory

that of catabolism is in my opinion a legend, perhaps some lose volumes because they feel lethargic from the abuse of T3 T4 and lose strength with a consequent decrease in volumes; but if you are in caloric surplus, with high doses of GH and Insulin + Testosterone Tren EQ ..... you do not lose anything

The GH then together with the Tren almost always leads you to have to use thyroid glands, everyone uses them at high levels, but above all in the amateur categories (bikini in the first place)

 

[Mufasa123]

ok, but then the question is whether you can catabolize your muscles if you are on the positive kcal? I'm asking because, for example, @Swiper er used 50mcg t3 for years all year and grew normally.

I know that Dallas used huge amounts of t3 all year round, in the order of 75-150mcg all year round and this does not confirm the catabolism theory

Type II can answer for himself (he has the science) but in conversation with him before vs what I and I assume others have experienced, anabolic skews this (defends the muscle logically) and it seems to really show up in non AAS users north of 75mcg anyway. I haven't ever used more than 75mcg and was always running a decent AAS dose and I noticed zero issue with muscle catabolism (these days I tend to use 50mcg max for long periods).

Also to be clear this is my experience and your own and others' practical experience in BBing is magnitudes more than mine but this was why I asked the question similar to yours.

 

[need4tren]

This is supported by the increase to fT3 (pharmacodynamics vs. biological half-life) that peaks ~2 hr post ingestion and returns almost to baseline by ~10 hr.

<= 25 mcg is an optimal dose of T3 during dieting (to replace the decrement to fT3 induced by low energy availability). Higher doses preferentially catabolize hypertrophied skeletal muscle.

The absorption window of t3 is actually 4 hours so there is no way it peaks in 2 hours. And because it's so easily blunted by food and vitamins/minerals that's why it's best to take middle of night so it definitely doesn't peak in 2 hours

 

[need4tren]

ok, but then the question is whether you can catabolize your muscles if you are on the positive kcal? I'm asking because, for example, @Swiper er used 50mcg t3 for years all year and grew normally.

I know that Dallas used huge amounts of t3 all year round, in the order of 75-150mcg all year round and this does not confirm the catabolism theory

I'm using 75mcg right now of t3 and I'm not even Flat. My strength isn't what it is normally when I run 25mcg but I only get flat after a few days of low carbs.

People who lose muscle on t3 diet too hard and if your cutting cals that hard it's best to just take 25mcg of t3 and drastically carbs and fat.

 

[Type-IIx]

The absorption window of t3 is actually 4 hours so there is no way it peaks in 2 hours. And because it's so easily blunted by food and vitamins/minerals that's why it's best to take middle of night so it definitely doesn't peak in 2 hours

Hey @BLang I'm about to be 3/5 level mean to someone on the internet, do you want to tell us how you feel about it?

You sound pretty cocksure of yourself, tren. I'll be really impressed to see your confidence hold up against the following without cutely shifting goal posts:

 

[Type-IIx]

ok, but then the question is whether you can catabolize your muscles if you are on the positive kcal? I'm asking because, for example, @Swiper er used 50mcg t3 for years all year and grew normally.

I know that Dallas used huge amounts of t3 all year round, in the order of 75-150mcg all year round and this does not confirm the catabolism theory

Yes, even in positive kcal. 50 mcg T3 has not been shown to exert this effect, but 100 mcg certainly has (and it is rather profound; a 15% reduction over 2 weeks in type IIA fiber CSA (type IIA fibers are those hypertrophied by resistance training). There is evidence of a compensatory protein sparing mechanism (or rather, a mechanism seems to be triggered that antagonizes the protein catabolic effects) that kicks over longer periods. And I am sure that androgens, by their anticatabolic action, exert an additional protein sparing effect.

Anyway, the best analysis of this was done by Peter Bond if you're interested: https://thinksteroids.com/articles/thyroid-hormone-effects-energy-metabolism-protein-turnover/

 

[Elvia1023]

On many bodybuilding subjects studies and scientific data show us the truth and are a guide but when it comes to enhanced bodybuilders things can be very different. That's not me stating I think high doses of T3 are good because I think the complete opposite. You should be smart when using t3 and many other drugs and when it comes to pretty much all the main "fatburners" going high in dose will usually just go against you. Nevertheless giving t3 to a natural male eating 150-200g protein per day is worlds apart from giving it to someone who is on test, deca, eq, adrol, hgh, insulin etc etc.

I have known people to take very high doses of t3 and not lose any noticeable muscle. Some people take 100mcg+ for long periods and look incredible but it doesn't make it right. Again I think you need to be sensible with t3 because the literature clearly states it will significantly increase energy expenditure, protein breakdown and leucine oxidation. It will be catabolic especially at higher doses. At the same time if someone is on 3 grams of test, 20iu hgh and 500g protein they are not exactly going to waste away.

Be smart and check blood work to see if you actually need to use t3/t4 in the first place. Then you start low and go up gradually if needed. If you need/want more then sure up the dose but going really high is never really needed when it comes to t3/t4 unless something is way off. Most people would be best staying in the 12.5-75mcg dose range imo.

 

[BLang]

Hey @BLang I'm about to be 3/5 level mean to someone on the internet, do you want to tell us how you feel about it?

You sound pretty cocksure of yourself, tren. I'll be really impressed to see your confidence hold up against the following without cutely shifting goal posts:

View attachment 160323

I love it, actually. Big fan of everything about this.

Also, why the hell is 2.5 days so commonly cited as the half life of Liothyronine Sodium?

 

[Type-IIx]

On many bodybuilding subjects studies and scientific data show us the truth and are a guide but when it comes to enhanced bodybuilders things can be very different. That's not me stating I think high doses of T3 are good because I think the complete opposite. You should be smart when using t3 and many other drugs and when it comes to pretty much all the main "fatburners" going high in dose will usually just go against you. Nevertheless giving t3 to a natural male eating 150-200g protein per day is worlds apart from giving it to someone who is on test, deca, eq, adrol, hgh, insulin etc etc.

I have known people to take very high doses of t3 and not lose any noticeable muscle. Some people take 100mcg+ for long periods and look incredible but it doesn't make it right. Again I think you need to be sensible with t3 because the literature clearly states it will significantly increase energy expenditure, protein breakdown and leucine oxidation. It will be catabolic especially at higher doses. At the same time if someone is on 3 grams of test, 20iu hgh and 500g protein they are not exactly going to waste away.

Be smart and check blood work to see if you actually need to use t3/t4 in the first place. Then you start low and go up gradually if needed. If you need/want more then sure up the dose but going really high is never really needed when it comes to t3/t4 unless something is way off. Most people would be best staying in the 12.5-75mcg dose range imo.

I agree with the crux of your post (except for the tired trope that enhanced bodybuilders are somehow not subject to human physiology and the same drug mechanisms as any research subject). I won't rehash (after this) what I've already mentioned (that androgens are anticatabolic in skeletal muscle and that there is a mechanism triggered over longer time-courses that antagonizes the protein catabolism of T3, to explain the apparent disconnect between the literature and Dallas.

Here's a thought exercise: Can anyone provide a rationale for why they would prefer 75 mcg T3 (increases RMR 15% over 24-hr and has a half-life of ~1 day [22 hr +/-] @BLang ) versus 75 mcg Clen (increases RMR 21% over 3 hr [measured at that time-point] & has a half-life of 25 - 39 hr) besides muscle cramping (that I would suggest trying electrolytes & taurine to ameliorate), considering that clen is also muscle hypertrophic and improves strength/sprint/power (is actually an anabolic agent) versus T3's being muscle catabolic and associated with cardiac arrhythmia?

 

[need4tren]

Hey @BLang I'm about to be 3/5 level mean to someone on the internet, do you want to tell us how you feel about it?

You sound pretty cocksure of yourself, tren. I'll be really impressed to see your confidence hold up against the following without cutely shifting goal posts:

View attachment 160323

Your looking at a study based on a single dose of t3. Here is the full study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5167556/#!po=33.6957


In your other post you sited the Pharmakinetics of the drug. But you ignored the first part of Pharmakinetics, absorption. If the drugs your taking absorption is drastically affected by food and minerals. Your gonna avoid that at all cost. And no bodybuilder is gonna not eat for 4 hours after taking a t3 in the middle of the day and not eat several hours before hand.

 

[luki7788]

Yes, even in positive kcal. 50 mcg T3 has not been shown to exert this effect, but 100 mcg certainly has (and it is rather profound; a 15% reduction over 2 weeks in type IIA fiber CSA (type IIA fibers are those hypertrophied by resistance training). There is evidence of a compensatory protein sparing mechanism (or rather, a mechanism seems to be triggered that antagonizes the protein catabolic effects) that kicks over longer periods. And I am sure that androgens, by their anticatabolic action, exert an additional protein sparing effect.

Anyway, the best analysis of this was done by Peter Bond if you're interested: https://thinksteroids.com/articles/thyroid-hormone-effects-energy-metabolism-protein-turnover/

so you are a bit misleading because since 50mcg did not break down muscle (and even if it did, insulin and hgh would outweigh protein synthesis over breakdown)

100mcg is a huge dose with the ft3 norm of 2.20-4.40 will give a result of 8 and even in some cases closer to 10, so it is logical that such a large surplus of thyroid hormones will cause catabolism, but if, for example, we dose 37.5mcg and it will give us a result of about 5.00, i.e. a slight excess of ft3, then I think this will only give positives for someone who is on high doses of aas, gh and insulin

 

[Reno911]

Of course Type-IIx has to come in and spoil the fun for everybody

 

[Type-IIx]

Your looking at a study based on a single dose of t3. Here is the full study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5167556/#!po=33.6957


In your other post you sited the Pharmakinetics of the drug. But you ignored the first part of Pharmakinetics, absorption. If the drugs your taking absorption is drastically affected by food and minerals. Your gonna avoid that at all cost. And no bodybuilder is gonna not eat for 4 hours after taking a t3 in the middle of the day and not eat several hours before hand.

I cited one study (the most relevant to @Mufasa123's point) but rely not on my reading of a multitude.

I. How would multiple dosing be more relevant here?

II. How does one aspect of the absorption-distribution-metabolism-excretion profile of T3 refute the pharmacodynamic effect that is demonstrated by this single dose study?

III. What is your point, exactly, about absorption - please tie your response in to the evidence of this fT3 increase - and how does your point about absorption refute the illustrated time-course of increase to fT3 (as your motivation seems so clearly to refute)?

 

[Type-IIx]

so you are a bit misleading because since 50mcg did not break down muscle (and even if it did, insulin and hgh would outweigh protein synthesis over breakdown)

100mcg is a huge dose with the ft3 norm of 2.20-4.40 will give a result of 8 and even in some cases closer to 10, so it is logical that such a large surplus of thyroid hormones will cause catabolism, but if, for example, we dose 37.5mcg and it will give us a result of about 5.00, i.e. a slight excess of ft3, then I think this will only give positives for someone who is on high doses of aas, gh and insulin

Perhaps what I've written is confusing (fair enough, I'll clarify). Rather than having any motivation to mislead (I ask kindly luki that you do your best to avoid transposing a motivation onto my posts here; I bear no reason to unfairly characterize T3). With that said - what I've tried to convey (perhaps poorly) in this thread and others, is this:

I believe that the optimal use case for T3 is in replacement (up to 25 mcg) due to the decrement to fT3 that occurs during dieting (due to low energy availability/kcal restriction).

I do not believe that using T3 for its common use case of increasing RMR (beyond base-line) is rational, because it tends to catabolize muscle. The significance of this muscle catabolism is clear in weeks at higher doses (statistically significant). I believe that at more modest doses, e.g., 37.5 mcg, there is likely some muscle catabolism that is too low for detection across a few weeks by sampling methods, accounting for the number of study subjects, etc.

Yet, even if there is not any muscle catabolism at 37.5 mcg, the use of T3 for any use case aside from replacement (to make up the deficit to thyroid & SNS output, fT3 induced by dieting/kcal restriction) is irrational in my view versus Clen (due to its opposite effects on muscle: it is muscle anabolic; well-tolerated; available; improved strength/power/sprint, etc.)

 

[jaxino]

My personal experience with T3 and T4 supplementation was really bad.
Even if bloods were in range i suffered from extreme tiredness, rest heart rate was high, always flat, couldn't regulate my body temp in summer, hunger wasn't even improved (just at start) it was a little hell.
Once i dropped it completely and kept in only 100mcg T4 everything went for the better.

I think that T3 should be used just on a competition setting or if your thyroid is really bad, but you have to go by bloods and how you feel. Just bloods means nothing.

 

[need4tren]

I cited one study (the most relevant to @Mufasa123's point) but rely not on my reading of a multitude.

I. How would multiple dosing be more relevant here?

II. How does one aspect of the absorption-distribution-metabolism-excretion profile of T3 refute the pharmacodynamic effect that is demonstrated by this single dose study?

III. What is your point, exactly, about absorption - please tie your response in to the evidence of this fT3 increase - and how does your point about absorption refute the illustrated time-course of increase to fT3 (as your motivation seems so clearly to refute)?

1.you are the one arguing more frequent dosing is beneficial remember? I stated my best results have been one dose mid sleep.

2. Are original discussions is optimal t3 dose timing. Not the study you quoted from

3. There isn't a point in taking a drug when absorption is majorly inhibited. And if you can avoid it or take it a different way. That will always be optimal. (Inject l carn compared to oral)

 

[b-boy]

I agree with the crux of your post (except for the tired trope that enhanced bodybuilders are somehow not subject to human physiology and the same drug mechanisms as any research subject). I won't rehash (after this) what I've already mentioned (that androgens are anticatabolic in skeletal muscle and that there is a mechanism triggered over longer time-courses that antagonizes the protein catabolism of T3, to explain the apparent disconnect between the literature and Dallas.

Here's a thought exercise: Can anyone provide a rationale for why they would prefer 75 mcg T3 (increases RMR 15% over 24-hr and has a half-life of ~1 day [22 hr +/-] @BLang ) versus 75 mcg Clen (increases RMR 21% over 3 hr [measured at that time-point] & has a half-life of 25 - 39 hr) besides muscle cramping (that I would suggest trying electrolytes & taurine to ameliorate), considering that clen is also muscle hypertrophic and improves strength/sprint/power (is actually an anabolic agent) versus T3's being muscle catabolic and associated with cardiac arrhythmia?

You are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters on PM. Keep up the quality post

 

[Type-IIx]

1.you are the one arguing more frequent dosing is beneficial remember? I stated my best results have been one dose mid sleep.

This is either an illustration of your transposing some bullshit judgment onto my reply to Mufasa123 (that his experiencing, in his words, a noticeably better effect by split dosing being due to, as I contextualized, the pharmacodynamic free T3 increase) is somehow my judging this use as "optimal," despite my clearly stating repeatedly that optimal dosing in my view is replacement (<= 25 mcg daily) - or, more likely, a mere Strawman Argument (intentionally misrepresenting my position).

2. Are original discussions is optimal t3 dose timing. Not the study you quoted from

I have not referred to timing matters myself, either optimal or sub-optimal. Another Strawman Argument.

3. There isn't a point in taking a drug when absorption is majorly inhibited. And if you can avoid it or take it a different way. That will always be optimal. (Inject l carn compared to oral)

This is a Red Herring fallacy, to analogize injectible L-carnitine vs. oral L-carnitine on the one hand, versus oral T3 (study) vs oral T3 (enhanced BB) on the other. You still have failed to make a case for why "enhanced bodybuilders" have reduced or altered absorption profiles versus the subjects in the cited trial.

Once your post is readily boiled down to 3 core invalid arguments, you're merely trolling. If that persists, you become a troll.

You and I are done here.

You are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters on PM. Keep up the quality post

Thank you brother!

 

[rippedyearround]

fat boy posing, on Monday I start the 4-6 week cut. I have been on a calorie surplus for exactly a year now, I eat 7000-8000kcal and 1000-1400g carbs every day, so I want to give the digestive system a break from all this food for a few weeks

and I immediately answer the question that will probably fall - I have not taken any SEO in my arms for several months

Bro you are a MONSTER! I think your best shots are from the back. That back lat spread looks wildly 3D, and thats coming thru in video. In real life, I bet you look even crazier.

There's an old video of Marcus Ruhl shopping in the grocery store during an off-season, and watching everyone's reaction in the store is hilarious. I bet that's everyday for you!