MORE FRAUD ON THE RIVER

[goback2013]

Solid selection there! I've used a lot of Jarrow products over the years and recently have been using some Nutricost products with zero complaints.

Yeah. I no longer buy 'bulk supplement' powders as quality seem to be inconsistent.
I now only use Nutricost for raws.

 

[KillerStack]

How does this analysis prove that though? It looks like all the brands that has shit HPLC testing were obscure cheap brands, while the well known reputable companies like bulk supplements were accurate. I don’t see anything regarding counterfeiting in this document, though I may have missed it.

I read about fake TESTING! I mean allegedly many analytical labs sometimes verify label claims without any testing at all! So you can trust products that haven't been tested but can't trust tests either.

I saw this fella on reddit talking about this. He's the owner of nootropicsdepot.com. He seems reputable and honest. Said fake testing is a huge problem in the industry. He's the one who said all turkesterone he tested was fake. Here he shows their in-house lab.

He sells bulk powders of other brands too, like Ksm-66 and Sensoril. Said he removed some claims the brands make because he couldn't verify them in his lab, something strange going on with those extracts. "They work and do contain ashwagandha but we can't verify all their claims. But we sell them because customers want them."

I might be completely wrong but I doubt amazon is selling counterfeits. It's the brand's fault. Of course if you confront them they will say it was an honest mistake, not a conscious ripoff.

 

[nothuman]

Interestingly I've been looking at astaxanthin specifically. I'm always very aware of fakes in the industry. I bought an "original" brand that had some studies, the trademarked API was "Astareal." I also bought it from a pharmacy here because I think they try to only sell quality stuff. Trying to minimize chances of getting bunk stuff.

Even "good guys" sell shit knowingly occasionally. One of the more interesting recent cases was Turkesterone. One lab who seem to know what they are talking about said ALL Turkesterone on the market currently is fake, at most containing 1% Turkesterone. They even got the Chinese sellers to admit off the record that even they thought it was fake. Did anyone stop selling it? Not from what I saw. This lab said it was mostly ecdysterone and that certain testing methods couldn't differentiate between the two. Ecdysterone and Turkesterone are both plant steroids with purported anabolic activity but they are not the same. If I bought Turkesterone it better be turkesterone lol, not something "close" Lol.

Not that I would buy it in the first place. I was amazed at the fervor people had over this substance, lots of the "steroid channels" on YT covered it which is why it got on my radar too. A friend is sponsored by a supp company with Turk so I could get it close to free, if it was real and free I might throw it in the stack just to see if I notice something (though I'm pretty sure there's not much to it).

I ALWAYS gladly pay more for assurances.

BUT what is going on with NOW foods Astragalus? Dante said it doesn't seem to work for kidneys. I'm sure it's "real astragalus" but there's some kind of difference between brands.

Consumerlab just posted about how a lot of fraud companies have been faking astaxanthin just the other day. Only the reputable brands passed the astaxanthin tests.

 

[nothuman]

I’ve always been suspicious of Nutricost because they’re so cheap but from the looks of it, they seem to pass their tests whenever one of their products gets tested so I feel pretty comfortable using them now.

 

[nothuman]

Thorne and Pure Encapsulations are also quality brands but too expensive to warrant the cost.

And believe it or not, Vitamin Shoppe is a very reputable brand. Very unlikely that anything you buy in that store will be fake

 

[D-NUTZ]

I’ve always been suspicious of Nutricost because they’re so cheap but from the looks of it, they seem to pass their tests whenever one of their products gets tested so I feel pretty comfortable using them now.

Same here.

The only thing I tend to avoid from then is the TUDCA.

How can they possibly have it at nearly half the price of bigger respectable brands TUDCA who 3rd party tests theirs (like Leviathan Nutrition and Morphogen). Something is up there because owners of both those companies have said they make a very low profit off that product because the raw is so expensive

 

[KillerStack]

Thorne and Pure Encapsulations are also quality brands but too expensive to warrant the cost.

And believe it or not, Vitamin Shoppe is a very reputable brand. Very unlikely that anything you buy in that store will be fake

Thorne's prices are pretty ridiculous, sometimes like 3x of another reputable brand's price. It's for rich people Lol.

 

[Reno911]

Same here.

The only thing I tend to avoid from then is the TUDCA.

How can they possibly have it at nearly half the price of bigger respectable brands TUDCA who 3rd party tests theirs (like Leviathan Nutrition and Morphogen). Something is up there because owners of both those companies have said they make a very low profit off that product because the raw is so expensive

Volume. Nutricost BSR is 8K. Leviathan's TUDCA is 46K

 

[totalrecomp]

How does this analysis prove that though? It looks like all the brands that has shit HPLC testing were obscure cheap brands, while the well known reputable companies like bulk supplements were accurate. I don’t see anything regarding counterfeiting in this document, though I may have missed it.

The point is amazon has been shown these tests multiple times and they continue to allow the brands that fail over and over to sell on their platform. Would you go to a pharmacy that KNOWINGLY allowed certain drug manufacturers to sell drugs with10% of what they claim they contain? Even if you didn't take the dugs in question why would you support a platform that KNOWINGLY allows fraudulent products to continue to be sold after they have been shown the problem MULTIPLE times????

Would you shop a car dealer that KNOWINGLY allows cars to be sold on their lot that have faulty brakes and phony airbags? Even if you knew which cars not to buy why in the hell would you still support such a dealer? amazon is that dealer.

 

[totalrecomp]

I read about fake TESTING! I mean allegedly many analytical labs sometimes verify label claims without any testing at all! So you can trust products that haven't been tested but can't trust tests either.

I saw this fella on reddit talking about this. He's the owner of nootropicsdepot.com. He seems reputable and honest. Said fake testing is a huge problem in the industry. He's the one who said all turkesterone he tested was fake. Here he shows their in-house lab.

He sells bulk powders of other brands too, like Ksm-66 and Sensoril. Said he removed some claims the brands make because he couldn't verify them in his lab, something strange going on with those extracts. "They work and do contain ashwagandha but we can't verify all their claims. But we sell them because customers want them."

I might be completely wrong but I doubt amazon is selling counterfeits. It's the brand's fault. Of course if you confront them they will say it was an honest mistake, not a conscious ripoff.

Amazon continues to allow the brands that repeatedly fail lab tests. Initially, yes I agree, it is the brands fault. Once this has been brought to amazons attention multiple times that, say amazing nutrition, keeps failing and they continue to allow them to sell it sends, at least to me, the message that they don't give a shit about their customers being screwed.

Let me ask everybody:

Say a new sponsor opens up here called JackedSupperSupps and they offer 10+ lines from different UGL's. After sometime a bunch of testing is done and 30% of the lines they offer are failing miserably with 10% of label claims. This is brought to Jackedsuppersupps attention and they continue to sell the underdosed UGL brands. A year later and multiple rounds of testing continue to show that those same UGL lines are not improving and continue to sell 90% underdosed gear. Yes we know which UGL's to avoid from this sponsor but why support them if they continue to sell the same lines they KNOW are a scam?????

 

[Hatchet]

Very little Ecdy/Turk is real at all. Most is synthetic crap from China.
Total waste of money.
For those who know about Ecdy, its cultivated once a year (Bulgaria maybe, memory is fading) and is out of stock rather quickly each year.

 

[KillerStack]

Amazon continues to allow the brands that repeatedly fail lab tests. Initially, yes I agree, it is the brands fault. Once this has been brought to amazons attention multiple times that, say amazing nutrition, keeps failing and they continue to allow them to sell it sends, at least to me, the message that they don't give a shit about their customers being screwed.

Let me ask everybody:

Say a new sponsor opens up here called JackedSupperSupps and they offer 10+ lines from different UGL's. After sometime a bunch of testing is done and 30% of the lines they offer are failing miserably with 10% of label claims. This is brought to Jackedsuppersupps attention and they continue to sell the underdosed UGL brands. A year later and multiple rounds of testing continue to show that those same UGL lines are not improving and continue to sell 90% underdosed gear. Yes we know which UGL's to avoid from this sponsor but why support them if they continue to sell the same lines they KNOW are a scam?????

Yeah I know what you mean. But couldn't there be some legal reasons for how they are acting? I don't know anything about the law but couldn't the failed brands potentially sue amazon? I mean few outfits want to test other brands for the legal headache. On here we've seen Dante often hint that a certain brand is bad, he is reluctant to say everything he know even though he probably knows a whole bunch about scamming. Amazon itself is not doing the testing so they would be backing someone elses testing without being in control.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[KillerStack]

Very little Ecdy/Turk is real at all. Most is synthetic crap from China.
Total waste of money.
For those who know about Ecdy, its cultivated once a year (Bulgaria maybe, memory is fading) and is out of stock rather quickly each year.

I don't even use the stuff nor do I think they have much potential lol but I've picked up some things. Ecdy could be sourced from a few places, I mean it's in foods like spinach. I think there's a plant in Brazil they call Suma. Then there's pfaffia paniculata and rhaponticum carthmoides and leuzea. Maybe the Suma is the pfaffia, I forget but the point is that it's in a bunch of stuff. I don't know if it matters where it comes from and I don't know if "synthetic" is inferior. My understanding from reading about the turk controversy is that ecdy is plentiful and the fake turk was in most cases ecdy. I said earlier that Dante said he was thinking of switching the turk in his products to ecdy - maybe he knew about the turk controversy? Probably must have. Emeric Delszeg probably has an opinion too because I think he has a ecdy/humanofort product. If I were to buy it I would provably go with one of the Russian pharma versions which can be had through amazon or other places.

 

[totalrecomp]

Yeah I know what you mean. But couldn't there be some legal reasons for how they are acting? I don't know anything about the law but couldn't the failed brands potentially sue amazon? I mean few outfits want to test other brands for the legal headache. On here we've seen Dante often hint that a certain brand is bad, he is reluctant to say everything he know even though he probably knows a whole bunch about scamming. Amazon itself is not doing the testing so they would be backing someone elses testing without being in control.

Just thinking out loud.

Now Foods has been testing for years and keeping quite for just that reason until they finally had enough and realized they have a team of legal counsel anyways so fuck it lets go public with all this BS. Amazon can terminate any sellers account for any reason at any time, just like youtube, IG, FB and all the other tech platforms. You have no rights as a retailer on amazon so no, that is not the reason, they just don't care and I guess most people don't either.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Yeah I know what you mean. But couldn't there be some legal reasons for how they are acting? I don't know anything about the law but couldn't the failed brands potentially sue amazon? I mean few outfits want to test other brands for the legal headache. On here we've seen Dante often hint that a certain brand is bad, he is reluctant to say everything he know even though he probably knows a whole bunch about scamming. Amazon itself is not doing the testing so they would be backing someone elses testing without being in control.

Just thinking out loud.

You are correct. I know a whole lot of info about companies out there scamming. I try to hint at things and be vague but the bottom line is I do not want to be sued. This is a sue happy industry. Some of these companies on Amazon who come in with lights out pricing NUSXXXXX for example, I wont even type out their name.... (prices which us legit manufacturers cannot even match...there is not a whole bunch of us so we know when people are flat out scamming because all of us cannot even get close to their cost they are selling at and we are the darn sourcing companies and manufacturers)....but the bottom line is "it seems to work doesnt it...people seem to buy solely on price....just look at the number of reviews those companies get"..so those 'scamming' companies are making bank. So much money coming in for them that they will sue someone til the cows come home to protect that money coming in. Its better to just stay in your lane and do the right things as you know it, than to get stuck in court cases.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I don't even use the stuff nor do I think they have much potential lol but I've picked up some things. Ecdy could be sourced from a few places, I mean it's in foods like spinach. I think there's a plant in Brazil they call Suma. Then there's pfaffia paniculata and rhaponticum carthmoides and leuzea. Maybe the Suma is the pfaffia, I forget but the point is that it's in a bunch of stuff. I don't know if it matters where it comes from and I don't know if "synthetic" is inferior. My understanding from reading about the turk controversy is that ecdy is plentiful and the fake turk was in most cases ecdy. I said earlier that Dante said he was thinking of switching the turk in his products to ecdy - maybe he knew about the turk controversy? Probably must have. Emeric Delszeg probably has an opinion too because I think he has a ecdy/humanofort product. If I were to buy it I would provably go with one of the Russian pharma versions which can be had through amazon or other places.

The product i produce is all about apigenin and i threw in turkesterone (or considering Rhaponticum carthamoides) to hopefully improve protein synthesis. I also have an phytosome Quercetin in there too because I believe in that. But Ive said it before and Ill say it now. I think turkesterone is the most over-rated compound out there and people (to make sales) threw "drug like effect" unproved literature behind it....and it doesn't. If it does do anything it improves protein synthesis as does Rhap Carth. Which is great...but promoting something as "drug like effects" is really irresponsible. The saddest thing that people dont know about is I have to list a supplement panel in order of the mg amounts that are in that supplement so I have to list Turk first on a supplement label even though Apigenin is the MAIN and most important ingredient in that product so people think its a turk product. Turk was honestly a throw-in of "maybe it helps protein synth maybe it doesnt but apigenin and 'quercefit' are the main ingredients. Everytime i try to replace Turk (thats how much i dont care if its in the product) with Rhap Carth the price it makes the product is unreasonable....

 

[KillerStack]

....but the bottom line is "it seems to work doesnt it...people seem to buy solely on price....just look at the number of reviews those companies get"..so those 'scamming' companies are making bank.

The nootropics guy I posted above says "reviews" are another problem. On his own site he says it's hard to know if a reviewer is a real purchasing customer, most of the time it isn't. Just a paid shill. I bet the professional reviewers have honed their skills so it's not easy to detect, maybe throw in some minor criticism along with the praise. Especially amazon reviews were bad in his opinion. Popularity can be faked too to make people buy a product, like publishing houses buying their own product in mass quantities to get on best seller lists, so the popularity isn't really organic. At the same time placebo is strong and affects us all - proven bunk products getting rave "honest" reviews.

Some people go with price always. Even in the PED business customers choose based on price, buying a cheap product over a proven one just to save a few bucks. I'm happy to pay more for assurances.

 

[Black Beard]

Thorne and Pure Encapsulations are also quality brands but too expensive to warrant the cost.

And believe it or not, Vitamin Shoppe is a very reputable brand. Very unlikely that anything you buy in that store will be fake

Thorne is stupidly overpriced for the same exact quality you can get from the usual top tier supp companies. Lol

 

[Black Beard]

That's why this is the best forum relating to PEDs, hormones and performance. I always learn something new here everyday be it science, news, anecdotal info, etc.

 

[KingOfSushi]

The point is amazon has been shown these tests multiple times and they continue to allow the brands that fail over and over to sell on their platform. Would you go to a pharmacy that KNOWINGLY allowed certain drug manufacturers to sell drugs with10% of what they claim they contain? Even if you didn't take the dugs in question why would you support a platform that KNOWINGLY allows fraudulent products to continue to be sold after they have been shown the problem MULTIPLE times????

Would you shop a car dealer that KNOWINGLY allows cars to be sold on their lot that have faulty brakes and phony airbags? Even if you knew which cars not to buy why in the hell would you still support such a dealer? amazon is that dealer.

So to confirm, the quote “Isn't the point of this thread that these brands are being counterfeited on Amazon .. with Amazon not doing anything about it ?”

That you then replied “YES YES YES” to, is indeed not true? They aren’t counterfeiting other brands. Yes there are shitty supplements on Amazon, I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. Always look into the brand you buy from, regardless if it’s Amazon, your local supp store, Walmart, etc