Muscle Growth ...

[itrain]

From every article I have come across , 90% of all muscle growth comes from increased tension ... (lifting heavier weights)

However, from personal experience I dont feel these studies hold true from real world results. Does anyone know if this evidence includes the use of hormones?

I know Kelly Beggets article does,

What are your thoughts , and your experience on the subject?

I would like to see posts from trainers because they not only see real world results from themselves but the many people they coach.

Please post routines, including rest periods, rep ranges, intensity, training protocols if needed to support the claim

 

[magnus82]

I would have to agree but i think one would have to define increased tension. I have found tut, mind/ muscle connection, drop sets, negatives, .... All to be effective and could be considered increased tension or rather increased load. I learned long ago to dismiss many of the studies and do what works for me. I have had the best luck taking many of the respcted members suggestions, finding similarities, and creating routines that work for me.

 

[MrSaturatedFat]

I think most answers you'll get will mostly go like this: Everyone is different, there is no 1 perfect way to build muscle, otherwise, everyone would do just that.. and there wouldn't be all these different routines. 5/3/1, 3 day splits, lean gains, push pulls, etc etc.

You ultimately need to find what works for YOU. Everyones genetics are different... including response to hormones. The good thing about all these routines is you get to experiment with a surplus of different styles and will eventually come to something you like and what works for you.

 

[bigdog123]

More drugs, more strength = more muscle

 

[maldorf]

I would have to agree but i think one would have to define increased tension. I have found tut, mind/ muscle connection, drop sets, negatives, .... All to be effective and could be considered increased tension or rather increased load. I learned long ago to dismiss many of the studies and do what works for me. I have had the best luck taking many of the respcted members suggestions, finding similarities, and creating routines that work for me.

Yeah, I think one of the most important factors is the actually time under tension.

 

[itrain]

Understood, we all have very different genetic makeups , and nutrient partitioning which effects muscle growth significantly. However hormones do help...

The purpose of the thread is to post what your experience is for you and your clients, if you are a trainer, and what you have seen discussed with friends and collegues

Theres a million and 1 routines.

John meadow probably leading with a very unique take trying to capture every aspect in effecting growth..

OLD school principles such as BBB, and Phil with more frequency

DC and other progressive lifting routines...

Keep the experiences/ feedback coming very interested

 

[itrain]

Yeah, I think one of the most important factors is the actually time under tension.

maldorf if you bench 300lbs for 8 reps in 30 seconds, or 12 reps in 15 seconds you feel one would promote more growth in the first instance?

In that case Im assuming your thought would be slower eccentrics cause more growth...

Now what if we put 3 people (assuming they were clones) on 3 different methods... 1 on dc. 1 on JM 1 on BBB and gave them all a surplus of 500 calories per day would they not all gain the same amount of muscle?

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Can I break this down and make this very basic?

If you wanted to build the biggest traps your unique genetic structure and genetics allowed how would you go about doing that?

You would incorporate shrugs correct? There is probably not any other exercise (in most peoples opinion) that is going to build bigger traps than shrugs. (I would personally include rack deadlifts and regular deadlifts in that equation but) for the sake of this argument lets agree that shrugs is the most productive exercise to build traps.

So.............

What is going to build the biggest trap size?

a) Twin Johnny who shrugs 135 x 12 and then supersets it with upright rows, and then back to shrugs and then back to upright rows and then back to shrugs and then back to upright rows and then next time giant sets 135x12 shrugs with 60 pound dumbell shrugss for 12 with upright rows for 12 with 135 hammer strength shrugs for 12 and then next time does 135 pound shrugs with chains on the end and on and on and on and on and on running around overthinking time under tension over progression.................while using drugs and eating food and taking supplements for the next 6 years doing variations of the above method. Every time he did the above it would be hard to do.

or

b) Twin Jimmy who does 135 x 12 shrugs today and over the next 6 years with drugs and eating food and taking supplements (also like Johnny) works his way up to the point where he is doing 600 pound shrugs for 20 reps with awesome form.

Twin Jimmy would absolutely DESTROY Johnnys traps...his traps would be freaking monstrous. Could he get to 600 pounds for 20 reps in good form? I dont know but just the path there of trying to do it would build huge amounts of muscle.

That is how important productive exercises used progressively over years in safe form and in safe rep ranges absolutely destroy people who overthink this stuff until they are blue in the face.

Lets also have twins johnny and jimmy try to build huge thighs. At the end of the journey Jimmy can now squat 560 pounds for 22 deep reps in perfect form. Johnny overthought everything and did every new exercise routine that came down the pike with fancy names and new methodology and he now supersets sissy squats with leg press and then runs over to the hack squat and supersets that with front squats....he doesnt care about whats on the bar....its actually kind of light for a guy who has been training for as long as him but he doesnt care because boy is he tired running around doing these giant sets and it feels like its doing something.

Jimmy just squatted 560 for 22 deep reps
Johnny just ran around like a chicken with his head cut off between sissy squats, hacks, front squats and leg press with weights that a 180 pound high school kid could use on those movements.

Who do you think has monstrous quads?

Training hard and heavy isnt easy and neither is it totally safe. There is a risk factor. There is a reason why the most massive bodybuilders on this earth got hurt eventually (Coleman Yates etc).... There is also a reason why they were the most massive bodybuilders on earth.

 

[jm425]

Increased strength, time under tension, and pump are the keys to muscle growth from real life experience.

 

[magnus82]

maldorf if you bench 300lbs for 8 reps in 30 seconds, or 12 reps in 15 seconds you feel one would promote more growth in the first instance?

In that case Im assuming your thought would be slower eccentrics cause more growth...

Now what if we put 3 people (assuming they were clones) on 3 different methods... 1 on dc. 1 on JM 1 on BBB and gave them all a surplus of 500 calories per day would they not all gain the same amount of muscle?

Given they are identcal, i would guess the results would be marginal. I have always believed the more muscle fibers you recruit, the better your gains. While some need heavier weights, others can do it with their mind ( mind/muscle connection), given all other variables are the same. I still believe in lifting heavy, but in a very concentrated controlled manor.

 

[itrain]

DC ...

so JM doesnt know what hes talking about?
so Phil hernon wasnt big?
so top arab bodybuilders arent huge?

so johnny jackson has a bigger back then Jay cutler,kai greene and phil heath?

I can go on comparing things that seem to contradict your post...

 

[moparfreak360]

Can I break this down and make this very basic?

If you wanted to build the biggest traps your unique genetic structure and genetics allowed how would you go about doing that?

You would incorporate shrugs correct? There is probably not any other exercise (in most peoples opinion) that is going to build bigger traps than shrugs. (I would personally include rack deadlifts and regular deadlifts in that equation but) for the sake of this argument lets agree that shrugs is the most productive exercise to build traps.

So.............

What is going to build the biggest trap size?

a) Twin Johnny who shrugs 135 x 12 and then supersets it with upright rows, and then back to shrugs and then back to upright rows and then back to shrugs and then back to upright rows and then next time giant sets 135x12 shrugs with 60 pound dumbell shrugss for 12 with upright rows for 12 with 135 hammer strength shrugs for 12 and then next time does 135 pound shrugs with chains on the end and on and on and on and on and on running around overthinking time under tension over progression.................while using drugs and eating food and taking supplements for the next 6 years doing variations of the above method. Every time he did the above it would be hard to do.

or

b) Twin Jimmy who does 135 x 12 shrugs today and over the next 6 years with drugs and eating food and taking supplements (also like Johnny) works his way up to the point where he is doing 600 pound shrugs for 20 reps with awesome form.

Twin Jimmy would absolutely DESTROY Johnnys traps...his traps would be freaking monstrous. Could he get to 600 pounds for 20 reps in good form? I dont know but just the path there of trying to do it would build huge amounts of muscle.

That is how important productive exercises used progressively over years in safe form and in safe rep ranges absolutely destroy people who overthink this stuff until they are blue in the face.

Lets also have twins johnny and jimmy try to build huge thighs. At the end of the journey Jimmy can now squat 560 pounds for 22 deep reps in perfect form. Johnny overthought everything and did every new exercise routine that came down the pike with fancy names and new methodology and he now supersets sissy squats with leg press and then runs over to the hack squat and supersets that with front squats....he doesnt care about whats on the bar....its actually kind of light for a guy who has been training for as long as him but he doesnt care because boy is he tired running around doing these giant sets and it feels like its doing something.

Jimmy just squatted 560 for 22 deep reps
Johnny just ran around like a chicken with his head cut off between sissy squats, hacks, front squats and leg press with weights that a 180 pound high school kid could use on those movements.

Who do you think has monstrous quads?

Training hard and heavy isnt easy and neither is it totally safe. There is a risk factor. There is a reason why the most massive bodybuilders on this earth got hurt eventually (Coleman Yates etc).... There is also a reason why they were the most massive bodybuilders on earth.

Lol i love dantes posts!

 

[moparfreak360]

DC ...

so JM doesnt know what hes talking about?
so Phil hernon wasnt big?
so top arab bodybuilders arent huge?

so johnny jackson has a bigger back then Jay cutler,kai greene and phil heath?

I can go on comparing things that seem to contradict your post...

Im sure these guys all still used PROGRESSIVLY heavier weights over time. That was DC's point i believe

 

[anab0lic]

DC ...

so JM doesnt know what hes talking about?
so Phil hernon wasnt big?
so top arab bodybuilders arent huge?

so johnny jackson has a bigger back then Jay cutler,kai greene and phil heath?

I can go on comparing things that seem to contradict your post...

All of the above would have gradually increased their working weight poundage over the years....

Muscle doesnt grow unless its exposed to a stress it hasnt already grown/adapted to handle....and the best way to achieve that IME is increased tension on the muscle fibers during each rep in the form of added weight....putting them in a situation where they get fcuked up dealing with the stress they havnt grown to handle.....then the body basically says: 'ok shit... we better grow stronger larger muscle in the event we are exposed to this kind of abuse again in the future and we can cope...'

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

DC ...

so JM doesnt know what hes talking about?
so Phil hernon wasnt big?
so top arab bodybuilders arent huge?

so johnny jackson has a bigger back then Jay cutler,kai greene and phil heath?

I can go on comparing things that seem to contradict your post...

Did i say JM doesnt know what he is talking about?
Did I say Phil Hernon isnt big?
Did i say top arab bodybuilders arent huge?

Johnny Jackson has built one of the thickest backs known to man and that wasnt done with 95 pound one handed cable rows with a pinky twist at the end of the movement.

I also dont consider the people you named "light trainers"....Lets use Cutler for example.

I keep hearing how everyone and their brother uses Cutler for their argument to train "light"...LIGHT? LIGHT? The guy was 258 pounds onstage at the age of 23-24 and in a recent article tells everyone what he was using for weights at his heaviest poundages.....

flat bench 550x2
incline 405x6-8
dumbell press flat 160-200 pounds
squats 700x2 and 500x10
front squat 455x6-8
leg press 1000-1300 x10-30 reps
hack 8 plates x 10 reps
deadlifts 585x3 495x8
rack deadlifts 675x3-6
barbells rows 405x8-10
dumbells rows 200x10
cable rows 400x8-10
shrugs 600 pounds
standing mil presses 315 pounds
dumbells presses mil 160x8-10
skull crushers 4 plates for reps
close grip bench press 405x8-10

Is that a walk in the park for anyone? Is that lollygagging it? training like a candyass? Not in my book....and Jay Cutler gained the majority of his size in the first 6-7 years of lifting (right in the time frame where he said he trained the heaviest)

 

[petersouth]

Often I picked weights that were too heavy to start with. Consequently I was just grinding my joints and I had developed a shoulder problem over the years.

Muscle groups I didn't care about strength wise were progressing the fastest because I had no ego about the weight. I finally figured it out and started gaining everywhere again.

I log and do more reps with a given weight each session but find ways to make the work harder before increasing the weight. That made a big difference with CNS recovery as well.

 

[brutus69]

can someone explain how merely pumping a muscle up with blood makes it grow? it's like blowing up a balloon. big when full, then what happens when you go back to normal? how is that achieving anything? it never did anything for me, and in fact, i shrunk.
i think there's a difference between tiring a muscle out and getting lactic acid burn, and generating overload so you damage, and then overcompensate on the muscle when it recovers.
and kai green said in that "i'll never be a weightlifter" or whatever video that the key is tension with increasingly heavier weights, so again, progressive overload. one of top-ranked amateurs in the light heavyweight division at my gym said it also. he grew to his size by lower weights and heavy weights.

 

[flexdurden]

AWESOME posts Dante!

Simplicity is elegant and WORKS! There are only so many variables you change to build muscle.

You have TUT, which you need sufficient TUT to really stimulate the muscle, but can you keep increasing TUT and gain size? I think one would end up looking more like an endurance athlete than a bodybuilder.

Then there is volume, yes, you can keep increasing volume, but there is point of diminishing returns for each individual, where the volume is just too much. There is also increased frequency, but like increasing volume, there becomes a point where one cannot recover sufficiently while being able to put adequate effort into training.

Lastly, you have increased tension, the weight you are moving. If you have the other variables in order, then if you continue to increase the tension you will elicit new growth.

When training, all of these variables are at work, so you have to find a way to optimize each variable and continue to increase the load to build new strength and thus more muscle.

That's just my $0.02.....

 

[jm425]

can someone explain how merely pumping a muscle up with blood makes it grow? it's like blowing up a balloon. big when full, then what happens when you go back to normal? how is that achieving anything? it never did anything for me, and in fact, i shrunk.
i think there's a difference between tiring a muscle out and getting lactic acid burn, and generating overload so you damage, and then overcompensate on the muscle when it recovers.
and kai green said in that "i'll never be a weightlifter" or whatever video that the key is tension with increasingly heavier weights, so again, progressive overload. one of top-ranked amateurs in the light heavyweight division at my gym said it also. he grew to his size by lower weights and heavy weights.

Lower weights, heavy weights=high reps, low reps I'm assuming. If so, your/his logic is that he grew through training slow twitch and fast twitch fibers. I do believe that you must train both to grow and not just focus on slow twitch which too many bodybuilders focus on. It's only a partial factor for muscle growth though.

 

[tkav1980]

DC ...

so JM doesnt know what hes talking about?
so Phil hernon wasnt big?
so top arab bodybuilders arent huge?

so johnny jackson has a bigger back then Jay cutler,kai greene and phil heath?

I can go on comparing things that seem to contradict your post...

Ive trained with Phil and John and Ive trained DC. Theres nothing about any of those programs that says light or no progression. The key to all 3 of those programs is strength progression. Sure theres differences in volume but that aside theyre really not that different.

The 2 that are most similar are Phil's protocal and Dante's. Theyre almost identical once you get past all the fluff if you really pay attention to what your being taught. Phil wants you using weight so heavy that it makes you sick in your stomach, and i have puked during all 3 training protocals.

Progressive overload with good form in a safe rep range will in a given time period will yield the larges gains. I dont care if you train a muscle once a week or 3 times a week if you put 200 lbs on a lift in 3 years you gained the muscle that goes with being stronger by 200 lbs.