Muscle Growth ...

[Turkishexpress]

I think a lot of bodybuilders get stuck in old ways due to what DC was speaking of on his point #1. They started with the basics and saw great results because they were starting out. Furthermore, their methods got further verified when their genetic make up allowed them to exceed the gains of 99% of other gym goers in the same period of time. It's only when they face the other 1% that they can't beat in gains that the first line of excuses surface. Usually that they don't use enough gear compared to the next person, or that they just don't have as good genetics. Don't get me wrong, both excuses might be very well justified but I strongly believe at a certain level it's also their comfort level not allowing them to try out something new (i.e. method of training, increasing weights etc...) that result in their stagnant gains.

 

[massnup]

Did i say JM doesnt know what he is talking about?
Did I say Phil Hernon isnt big?
Did i say top arab bodybuilders arent huge?

Johnny Jackson has built one of the thickest backs known to man and that wasnt done with 95 pound one handed cable rows with a pinky twist at the end of the movement.

I also dont consider the people you named "light trainers"....Lets use Cutler for example.

I keep hearing how everyone and their brother uses Cutler for their argument to train "light"...LIGHT? LIGHT? The guy was 258 pounds onstage at the age of 23-24 and in a recent article tells everyone what he was using for weights at his heaviest poundages.....

flat bench 550x2
incline 405x6-8
dumbell press flat 160-200 pounds
squats 700x2 and 500x10
front squat 455x6-8
leg press 1000-1300 x10-30 reps
hack 8 plates x 10 reps
deadlifts 585x3 495x8
rack deadlifts 675x3-6
barbells rows 405x8-10
dumbells rows 200x10
cable rows 400x8-10
shrugs 600 pounds
standing mil presses 315 pounds
dumbells presses mil 160x8-10
skull crushers 4 plates for reps
close grip bench press 405x8-10

Is that a walk in the park for anyone? Is that lollygagging it? training like a candyass? Not in my book....and Jay Cutler gained the majority of his size in the first 6-7 years of lifting (right in the time frame where he said he trained the heaviest)

I really do believe this is what it takes to get the size everyone wants that wants to be massive, everyone i've seen that has freaky size is able to do these weights, the guys that are still in the 300's for everything look good and have good size but not the freaky size they would have if they got this strong, just my observation!

 

[BigJB]

There's also a huge difference strength wise in what you need to be 265lbs+ on stage and 230ish...

 

[anarchocapitalist]

My two cents on a Sunday morning...


Muscle growth comes from

1) mechanical tension - think increases in actin and myosin - larger diameter of a muscle fiber - push some steel intelligently - myofibrillar hypertrophy

2) metabolic stress - think sarcoplasmic hypertrophy - cell swelling, hypoxia, muscle ischemia, etc...

3) muscle damage - think inflammatory response - you need a little to set muscle growth in action..

John,

I apologize I haven't kept up with current research so I may be out of date.

What evidence is there that you can increase sarcoplasmic "resources" without increasing cross sectional area?

What I'm getting at is ... my ignorant ass would say that muscle damage #3 is the result of lifting heavy ass weights #1 ... same with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy #2 is the result of lifting heavy ass weights #1.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining my argument clearly but can you train for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy? Or is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy what happens when you lift heavy weights?

I'm not denying the validity of sarcoplasmic hypertrohpy. When you take creatine you increase the resources inside a muscle therefore its mass/volume is larger ... but can you train for that specifically? And if you can train for that specifically is the prescription/protocol any different than #1?

 

[sebaco2011]

Very good thread!

Just read through all of this and everyone has good points, I have had a couple close friends that were all powerlifters each had at least a 550 bench , and when all 3 of them decided to do a bodybuilding show they just turned out massive and thick as fuck! 2 of them placed 1'st and one of them placed in 4th, keep in mind if was all there very first competition.

I know after I started using a logbook with me and ALWAYS bringing it with me and trying to beat it everytime , wether it was by reps , or weight, or by total volume , I always tried and noticed this is what makes me grow. I dont get why everyone doesn't track there progress and try to beat it, I know some people only track there main lifts like bench, squat, and deadlift , but I think its very handy to track every damn exercise and improve yourself. The powerlifters always used it and one day it just struck me fuck it I might as well use one also and thats when the fun began.

 

[Kaladryn]

More drugs, more strength = more muscle

A good point actually, the right way to use drugs is to increase your strength, which allows you to add more muscle if you eat more (I think Dante made this point a while back). The wrong way is to use them for increasing muscle size directly. Of course the reality is a combination of both is always happening...

can someone explain how merely pumping a muscle up with blood makes it grow? it's like blowing up a balloon. big when full, then what happens when you go back to normal? how is that achieving anything? it never did anything for me, and in fact, i shrunk.
i think there's a difference between tiring a muscle out and getting lactic acid burn, and generating overload so you damage, and then overcompensate on the muscle when it recovers.
and kai green said in that "i'll never be a weightlifter" or whatever video that the key is tension with increasingly heavier weights, so again, progressive overload. one of top-ranked amateurs in the light heavyweight division at my gym said it also. he grew to his size by lower weights and heavy weights.

The only true purpose to the "pump" is activating secondary motor units.

You can't talk about training without talking about periworkout nutrition either. They go hand in hand. Don't pay attention to this, and inflammation and muscle damage will get out of control, you'll go too far, and you'll feel crippled. If you manage insulin correctly during training, you will not go to deep into the red zone and will limit muscle protein breakdown. If you provide high quality hydrolysates, you will enhance muscle protein synthesis.

I can expound on this more if people want to hear my views....

JM

I'd love to hear your thoughts on insulin management during training, keeping insulin levels low during training was a big deal to Yates although I never understood why exactly.

John,

I apologize I haven't kept up with current research so I may be out of date.

What evidence is there that you can increase sarcoplasmic "resources" without increasing cross sectional area?

What I'm getting at is ... my ignorant ass would say that muscle damage #3 is the result of lifting heavy ass weights #1 ... same with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy #2 is the result of lifting heavy ass weights #1.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining my argument clearly but can you train for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy? Or is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy what happens when you lift heavy weights?

I'm not denying the validity of sarcoplasmic hypertrohpy. When you take creatine you increase the resources inside a muscle therefore its mass/volume is larger ... but can you train for that specifically? And if you can train for that specifically is the prescription/protocol any different than #1?

A muscle cell is 35% mitochondria, 35%+ glycogen, 10% cell wall, and most of the remaining is nucleus. This is textbook info, I would imagine it only applies to "average" people.

 

[Kaladryn]

Here is my take, and I think anyone who takes this to heart will see increased gains, no matter how advanced you are. Here is the basic version:

Overload causes adaptation, intensity causes overload.

Seems simple but here is where people get lost: Intensity comes from you, not from the weight and not from your muscle. It is from your mind that you create the CNS energy necessary to create a higher level of muscular contraction.

Now there are several other factors, however none is greater than the simple reality of YOU generating the necessary energy. EVERY time you fail on an exercise, it is a failure of the mind. There is always a higher level of intensity that could be reached. It might not be safe, it might not be possible given your current mindset, it might not even be desirable, but it is there.

This is the crux of Dorian's training. He wasn't worried about "overtraining" he was transfixed by the reality of increasing his intensity. It doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter how hard you THINK you lift, it doesn't matter how bad you "want it," it doesn't matter how many millions are on the line: you cannot lift as hard on 5 sets as you can for 1 set.

Now this isn't a HIT declaration of war, I'm not a HIT zealot. However I do believe that your energies must be focused on maximizing intensity at your strongest set.

Dorian didn't do 1 set because he was afraid of overtraining, he did it because it wasn't humanly possible to do more than one set at that level of intensity.

You must be humble to recognize your weakness, and only from this will find a way to make yourself stronger. Dorian was more humble than most, and he was also stronger than most, physically and mentally.

There are other factors but they are comparatively insignificant.

 

[zachbean79]

bump.....to hear more from JM on this